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 Lotet wrote:
Just out of curiosity, thedarkavenger, what actual elements do you expect from a true RPG? Like, don't just say "similar to *insert game* ", give us an example (or a few examples) of what made a game an RPG to you, some events, some quality. You need to understand something, I (and likely others) haven't played some of the games you mention so we don't know why you think your listed games are so special compared to the games that failed your list. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the heck you're expecting.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim is barely an RPG.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Skyrim is one of my favourite games ever.

It's still not an RPG.

What??

I expect a true RPG to give me all the choice I'd get in a game like DnD.

If I want to roleplay a mage who's magical prowess comes from a soultrapped mage in an orb floating behind him who enchants his sword to deal various effects, I should.

Furthermore, a RPG should have a pregenerated world with an overall story arc which can be pursued at the player's leisure. I recently played a HERO PnP campaign, where after 60 hours, we started the plot.

Nethack, and games like Baldur's gate are the only ones that remotely emulate all this.


As for Skyrim, it's an action game with RPG elements. That doesn't automatically make it a RPG. If I were racist towards Jewish people(Before I trigger any kneejerk reactions, I'm not.) and German, would I be a Nazi? No. My beliefs would have elements of Naziism, but I'd just be an antisemitist.

So your essential issue is that you are measuring video game RPGs by tabletop standards? That's a bit like saying command and conquer isn't a strategy game, because it lacks the depth of strategy/customisation that a wargame such as 40k has. Apples and oranges...

And Skyrim not being an RPG anymore is a tad awkward. Especially given how many ''RPG of the year'' awards it won when it came out. Boy, all those reviewers sure look silly now.

What Akragth said. Porting tabletop or pnp mechanics into a computer game is just not possible with todays tech. You cant have a DM or something who adapts to your decisions on the fly. You cant have unlimited freedom, since someone has to code that stuff. Every possible choice would have to be anticipated by the developers. And thats just not possible.

That doesnt mean that the name RPG for videogames is wrong. Its an agreed upon convention. If youve got some choice of what to do, a leveling system, skills and loot, youre an RPG. If one or more of these are mising, youre X with RPG mechanics. Character creation is irrelevant. You can still roleplay in a predefined role.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I expect a true RPG to give me all the choice I'd get in a game like DnD.

If I want to roleplay a mage who's magical prowess comes from a soultrapped mage in an orb floating behind him who enchants his sword to deal various effects, I should.

Furthermore, a RPG should have a pregenerated world with an overall story arc which can be pursued at the player's leisure. I recently played a HERO PnP campaign, where after 60 hours, we started the plot.

And in Skyrim you can be a Orc Thane Mage wreathed in fire and summoned astral barrier, summon a dragon or thunderstorm in the middle of a war while riding an immortal demonic steed, weilding a hammer with the soul of the emperor and equipment that grants you unlimited destruction magic powered by the ancients.

My current character has been played for 46 hours and hasn't touched the main quest or any DLC yet.

But that's all besides the point, yeah? What you want is an impossible game, one where you can do absolutly anything. You don't want many, many options, you want ALL the options. A game powered by imagination, not code.

This means, in your mind, that a true video game RPG will never be made to the standards you have set before you.

Skyrim IS an RPG because it has all the elements that an RPG should have by anyone's list. Your problem is that it doesn't use all the elements ENOUGH to satify you, that's all.

I really wish you made this clear before hand.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Furthermore, a RPG should have a pregenerated world with an overall story arc which can be pursued at the player's leisure.

Congratulations, you just described basically all of TES, and even most Fallout games!!!


As to the other stuff you described... yeah, you're NEVER going to get that in a video game. You're probably never going to have the ability to make a shemale or anything other than a single-gendered person any more than getting to choose your own "magic source" as magical sources are tied to the rpg world. There's an inherent limitation of play within computerized RPGs, this is because games traditionally can only be so big as they could fit on a stack of CDs, DVDs or a download file.


So, while you will continue believing that TES and other games like it aren't RPGs, the rest of us grounded in reality will continue knowing that they are.

It seems to me that, at the end of the day. A RPG is a RPG if it is sold/advertised as such.

Anything more than that, you end up in the territory of No true Scotsman.

 Compel wrote:
It seems to me that, at the end of the day. A RPG is a RPG if it is sold/advertised as such.

If a game like CoD starts advertising and selling itself as such, does that make it one?


The fact is, claiming something to be an RPG doesn't make it one. No matter how many people make that claim.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If a game like CoD starts advertising and selling itself as such, does that make it one?

The fact is, claiming something to be an RPG doesn't make it one. No matter how many people make that claim.

Yeah, but nobody ever did that. You only use CoD as an example because you know it's not an RPG, we all know a bunch of features that RPGs should have, some people accept a more broad deffinition. I mean, I see what you're saying, but couldn't you use an actual example to back up what you're saying? Surely it exists on the internet.

Could you avoid talking about Nazis, CoD RPG and such? It's quite silly, just use real examples so we can discuss this properly, not rediculous hypothetical scenarios.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

 Lotet wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
If a game like CoD starts advertising and selling itself as such, does that make it one?

The fact is, claiming something to be an RPG doesn't make it one. No matter how many people make that claim.

Yeah, but nobody ever did that. You only use CoD as an example because you know it's not an RPG, we all know a bunch of features that RPGs should have, some people accept a more broad deffinition. I mean, I see what you're saying, but couldn't you use an actual example to back up what you're saying? Surely it exists on the internet.

Could you avoid talking about Nazis, CoD RPG and such? It's quite silly, just use real examples so we can discuss this properly, not rediculous hypothetical scenarios.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Those are perfectly valid examples. Yes, they are extreme. But they're examples of what everyone here seems to be doing. If you claim something to be something, that doesn't automatically make it true. For instance. The new AW has an inventory system, a loot system, a levelling system and pregenerated maps. Does that make it an RPG now?

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Those are perfectly valid examples. Yes, they are extreme. But they're examples of what everyone here seems to be doing. If you claim something to be something, that doesn't automatically make it true. For instance. The new AW has an inventory system, a loot system, a levelling system and pregenerated maps. Does that make it an RPG now?

Huh? Did someone use those 4 criteria to describe what an RPG needs? Oh, I suppose if you mangle different people's post together, maybe. I thought having an explorable world was somewhat mandatory, open-world maybe but not neccesarily. Having the kinds of maps you see in Dark Souls and Fable are fine as well. Of course, not everyone would agree with that...

It is by those standards that people claim Diablo is an RPG. It isn't. It's a hack-n-loot. Even by the broad terms of video game RPGs, Diablo fails. Its contemporary, Fallout, was a thousand times the RPG Diablo ever could be.

RPG is a broader category for most of us. Your narrow definition
is one that applies to a few of you, but for most of us, being told
that a game is an RPG will help us find the type of game that we
like.

Even better, telling some of us that something is a hack and loot
RPG will get us there faster

Is Diablo really an RPG? Is the Gauntlet series an RPG series? I thought Gauntlet wasn't an RPG, just had leveling, loot and classes and I thought Diablo was the same except it's dungeons were randomly generated and had more skills/spells.

Gauntlet tends to be very sparse on story, just go through stages, beat a boss, stop the Big Bad Evil Guy and such. Did the old Diablo games have more story than "go level up and beat down Diablo" ?

If Diablo isn't an RPG then homosexuals aren't gay unless they're feeling jubilant.

No one cares what the definition of RPG was 30 years ago. It's an aspect of the English language for the meaning of a word to evolve with the mainstream public's perception. Diablo by modern definition of an action-RPG is one, as is Borderlands and a host of other games that may not have counted as "RPG's" in the 70's or whatever. Arguing otherwise is purely semantics.

 Lotet wrote:

Gauntlet tends to be very sparse on story, just go through stages, beat a boss, stop the Big Bad Evil Guy and such. Did the old Diablo games have more story than "go level up and beat down Diablo" ?

Well, there's stores, sidequests, an auction house, buying / replacing equipment. Diablo 2 did have a rather interesting story in my view.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If Diablo isn't an RPG then homosexuals aren't gay unless they're feeling jubilant.

I don't care what the definition of RPG was 30 years ago. It's an aspect of the English language for the meaning of a word to evolve with the mainstream public's perception. Diablo by modern definition of an action-RPG is one, as is Borderlands and a host of other games that may not have counted as "RPG's" in the 70's or whatever. I won't listen to arguing otherwise.

I don't care what it's definition 30 years ago was either, Gauntlet wasn't re-released very long ago, just last year. The steam store calls it an RPG, so it probably is, right?
http://store.steampowered.com/app/258970/
Though my brother, who has played it quite a bit, scoffed at the idea of it being an RPG. He called it an Arcade game, which is one of the other, less popular, tags.

If you and others believe that Gauntlet is an RPG, well, I guess that makes it an RPG. So we come to the realization that being an RPG is not a title to keep on a podium that needs to be earned. It's just a genre title with no power and no barrier of entry for those that want it.

Thinking highly of the word, to the point of guarding if from being associated with particular games, feels somewhat pointless to me.

But then, if I ever wanted to describe Gauntlet to someone, I would never include RPG in that descrition...

Why can't Gauntlet be both an Arcade Game and an RPG?

Honestly some people, It's like you don't understand the idea of intersectionality of labels.

When did I say it couldn't? I'm just saying it's much, much more of an Arcade game than an RPG. Really though, I just don't think it's an RPG. It can be a dozen things and more. One of my favorite lines was I/it/he/she/etc can be more than one thing. Came up quite often.

Don't know why you would think that, rude bugger.

From dictionary.com:

noun
1.
a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master.

British Dictionary definitions for role-playing game Expand
role-playing game
noun
1.
a game in which players assume the roles of fantasy characters


So, in essence, if you want to be really semantic about it, Madden, FIFA, and NHL are all RPGs, because you assume the role of Coach, player, GM, etc. Call of Duty is an "RPG" because you assume the role of [insert generic soldierly name here].

In marketing, those games fall under different categories from what most "gamers" consider to be RPGs


As Mel pointed out: Gauntlet could be "classified" as an "Arcade style-RPG" just like Diablo can be classified as a "hack-and-loot RPG", the same as Fallout/TES are "FPS style RPGs"

That works for me. An RPG is any game that facilitates role play.

This will generally mean choices that effect game-play (classes, leveling, choosing team members, ect.), and oftentimes moral decisions, with or without consequences (ones without purely mechanic based consequences are generally better, as it's less, "which option will get me the better stuff?", and more, "which option is right?". It often means a player-made character as well, although many RPGs (JRPGs in particular) will have you playing a character (or characters) with predefined names, attributes, and back-story.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That works for me. An RPG is any game that facilitates role play.

CoD series is confirmed to be an RPG by some dude on a forum.

Fallout wasn't an FPS until Fallout 3. Prior to that, it's been a three-quarter isometric or top-down view game.

Gauntlet was, originally, a four-player arcade game, in the days before the Nintendo Entertainment System, where the character you got depended where on the cabinet you stood and which slot you dropped your quarters in. There isn't a single RPG aspect to the game... no character levels, no inventory, no conversation (except the faceless, bodiless voice that tells you when someone needs food, or when someone shot the food) and no story, or end. Its mechanics were 100% purely designed to keep you dropping quarters into the machine, even if you never got touched by a bad guy, your health was continuously counting down (but drop another quarter and it went up).

Man, I wish they'd release Red Dead Redemption for the PC already.

 BrookM wrote:
Man, I wish they'd release Red Dead Redemption for the PC already.

Amen to that.

Good lord, 3 pages dedicated to petty labeling.

 curran12 wrote:
Good lord, 3 pages dedicated to petty labeling.

Pft. It's not even close to the Dakka record

 LordofHats wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Good lord, 3 pages dedicated to petty labeling.

Pft. It's not even close to the Dakka record

I'm certain of that, but I mean what is the point of all of it? The only thing I can think of is that people don't want to share their "rpg gamer" tag with others? Maybe? People can't be that shallow that they need to attach personal worth to their game genres, right?

Would that be one of the strangest things you've seen an otherwise sane person do?

I just want a really good sequel to Champions of Norrath... Best game ever.

My dream? This year's E3 would be an announcement of Champions of Norrath III, as a PS4 exclusive that absolutely includes couch co-op. I'd die. It's been ages since we've gotten an Action RPG like Champions.