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I was wondering if they still exist and what ruleset would be best for them? I know Fabulous Bill is still around, but it seems odd if they just happened to stop bothering with geneseed, even if it's not as good as SM geneseed.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I was wondering if they still exist and what ruleset would be best for them? I know Fabulous Bill is still around, but it seems odd if they just happened to stop bothering with geneseed, even if it's not as good as SM geneseed.

I don't think there's anyway they would just stop using Apothecaries as that would be incredibly stupid but I don't have any proof of this. No clues on a rule set I'm afraid.

There's very little information on them, unfortunately. It's certainly a missed opportunity; it'd be cool to have Apothecaries following the same concept as Chaos Techmarines, in that they are no longer bound by Imperial rules and are free to do whatever science they wish.

This is essentially the concept behind one of my Chaos characters, a Sanguinary Priest who joined up with a Chaos group so that he could research a cure for The Flaw without the limitations he'd come against in the past. From his perspective, their efforts have been unsuccessful for ten thousand years, so obviously they couldn't find the answers they need without breaking the rules. He's obsessed with repentance and believes that damning himself is necessary to save his kin. He creates pseudo-Blood Angels and has devised a way to induce the Black Rage and Red Thirst in them. The crazed and occasionally mutated results of these experiments are donated to his Chaos patrons to use as troops.

This is the kind of thing I would like to see in Chaos fluff, although avoiding the "all Chaos Marines are pure evil and therefore only interested in torture" cliché. I think there is reference somewhere to World Eater Apothecaries, who perform the Butcher's Nails procedure. The Astral Claws/Red Corsairs had "Vivisectors" during the Badab War at least, whose job was to harvest gene-seed from any and all Space Marines available. Garreon the "Corpsemaster" still serves in the Red Corsairs.

It's strange they're not more prominent. You'd think that Chaos Marines would have more desperate need of Apothecaries than Loyalist ones.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
There's very little information on them, unfortunately. It's certainly a missed opportunity; it'd be cool to have Apothecaries following the same concept as Chaos Techmarines, in that they are no longer bound by Imperial rules and are free to do whatever science they wish.

This is essentially the concept behind one of my Chaos characters, a Sanguinary Priest who joined up with a Chaos group so that he could research a cure for The Flaw without the limitations he'd come against in the past. From his perspective, their efforts have been unsuccessful for ten thousand years, so obviously they couldn't find the answers they need without breaking the rules. He's obsessed with repentance and believes that damning himself is necessary to save his kin. He creates pseudo-Blood Angels and has devised a way to induce the Black Rage and Red Thirst in them. The crazed and occasionally mutated results of these experiments are donated to his Chaos patrons to use as troops.

This is the kind of thing I would like to see in Chaos fluff, although avoiding the "all Chaos Marines are pure evil and therefore only interested in torture" cliché. I think there is reference somewhere to World Eater Apothecaries, who perform the Butcher's Nails procedure. The Astral Claws/Red Corsairs had "Vivisectors" during the Badab War at least, whose job was to harvest gene-seed from any and all Space Marines available. Garreon the "Corpsemaster" still serves in the Red Corsairs.

It's strange they're not more prominent. You'd think that Chaos Marines would have more desperate need of Apothecaries than Loyalist ones.

Definitely a missed opportunity. It'd be cool to have them in squads with a chance of whatever they do having an unwanted effect such as rage and fearless but with a huge downside to offset it (like the black templars having to move forwards if shot at).

I'd like them to be mostly the same as current Apothecaries (FNP), but I'd have to guess what they'd actually be like. They'd probably have something like a "Combat Drugs" table, with one-turn effects ranging from +1T, +1S, Rage, FNP, and maybe -1T on a roll of a 1. I hate random tables, but that's probably what would happen.

there are, sadly, a LOT of missed oppertunites with CSMs. :(

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
There's very little information on them, unfortunately. It's certainly a missed opportunity; it'd be cool to have Apothecaries following the same concept as Chaos Techmarines, in that they are no longer bound by Imperial rules and are free to do whatever science they wish.

This is essentially the concept behind one of my Chaos characters, a Sanguinary Priest who joined up with a Chaos group so that he could research a cure for The Flaw without the limitations he'd come against in the past. From his perspective, their efforts have been unsuccessful for ten thousand years, so obviously they couldn't find the answers they need without breaking the rules. He's obsessed with repentance and believes that damning himself is necessary to save his kin. He creates pseudo-Blood Angels and has devised a way to induce the Black Rage and Red Thirst in them. The crazed and occasionally mutated results of these experiments are donated to his Chaos patrons to use as troops.

This is the kind of thing I would like to see in Chaos fluff, although avoiding the "all Chaos Marines are pure evil and therefore only interested in torture" cliché. I think there is reference somewhere to World Eater Apothecaries, who perform the Butcher's Nails procedure. The Astral Claws/Red Corsairs had "Vivisectors" during the Badab War at least, whose job was to harvest gene-seed from any and all Space Marines available. Garreon the "Corpsemaster" still serves in the Red Corsairs.

It's strange they're not more prominent. You'd think that Chaos Marines would have more desperate need of Apothecaries than Loyalist ones.

That's a really cool idea! It also sounds really quite plausible, as opposed to a lot of wh40k fluff! I know the reason the Emperor's Children don't take them (gene-seed is too mutated to function), which I guess is the same for most of the Thousand Sons and Nurgle-worshippers.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I was wondering if they still exist and what ruleset would be best for them? I know Fabulous Bill is still around, but it seems odd if they just happened to stop bothering with geneseed, even if it's not as good as SM geneseed.

they still exist.

In the Nightlords books, the protagonist is a Apothecary (although non-practicing) The red corsairs are described as having a very active Apothecary that preserves geneseed and actively searches for other SM geneseed. Iron warriors also have a active Apothecary branch as well.

Yeah, there are plenty of apothicaries running around in the fluff.

I'd imagine they'd actually hold some kind of power in the worlds of CSM. The ability to extract and create new geneseed must give them excellent leverage in negotiations.

Chaos apothecaries have Feel More Pain special rule. Every model that has passed it's save must also pass Feel More Pain. On a roll of 5+ he suffers a wound. Friend or foe.

It's a conceptual mismatch. Chaos comes with the idea that the strong will survive and the weak won't have a shot at catching the blessings of the gods, they're less interested in keeping everyone alive than the Imperium.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's a conceptual mismatch. Chaos comes with the idea that the strong will survive and the weak won't have a shot at catching the blessings of the gods, they're less interested in keeping everyone alive than the Imperium.

They're quite interested in keeping themselves alive.

I think it's worth noting one of the special characters within codex: CSM is actually a special character apocathary.

Chaos Apothecary-Each Cult Mark bestows certain drugs

Explanation:
Nurgle Apothecary allows the squad to ignore poison outright (any wounds caused by weapons with the property even if Strength was enough to wound)

Slaanesh Apothecary gives combat drugs to boost provide fleet and add 6 inch to movement, and re-roll to hit both shooting and melee?

Tzeentch apothecary gives a reanimation protocol like ability to the attached squad. In addition, say if squad of 10 had 6 die and so Reanimation Protocol of 6 is rolled, and 3 failed. for every 2 failed, 1 model can be brought back like the body and armor was salvaged and frankenstiened together.

Khorne Apothecary...I dont know. He performs an even more brutal lobotomy so the squad FNP+4?

And by the way, CSM are the missed opportunities!

I always thought they either lost the expertise or simply didn't bother harvesting their own gene-seed due to the effect that mutation has upon it.

Apothecaries certainly seem to be more valuable to Chaos warbands in any case.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I know the reason the Emperor's Children don't take them (gene-seed is too mutated to function), which I guess is the same for most of the Thousand Sons and Nurgle-worshippers.

Hmm, I see where you are coming from but the Emperors Children Gene-Seed still must function in some ways and they must have the need for it otherwise how would they replenish their rank? Unless there are no actual new Emperors Children and they use Gene-seed pillaged from other sources. Or do they even bother worrying about such trivial things as replenishing loses

 koooaei wrote:
Chaos apothecaries have Feel More Pain special rule. Every model that has passed it's save must also pass Feel More Pain. On a roll of 5+ he suffers a wound. Friend or foe.

Where are those rules from?

 welshhoppo wrote:
Yeah, there are plenty of apothicaries running around in the fluff.

I'd imagine they'd actually hold some kind of power in the worlds of CSM. The ability to extract and create new geneseed must give them excellent leverage in negotiations.

I would't say a handful is plenty, but aye, I was also thinking they must have crazy leverage, considering how important the Daemoncubala (sp?) is.

 Supertony51 wrote:

they still exist.

In the Nightlords books, the protagonist is a Apothecary (although non-practicing) The red corsairs are described as having a very active Apothecary that preserves geneseed and actively searches for other SM geneseed. Iron warriors also have a active Apothecary branch as well.

Aye, some have been mentioned, but you can't portray them at all in the crunch.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's worth noting one of the special characters within codex: CSM is actually a special character apocathary.

Aye, I say so in OP.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Hmm, I see where you are coming from but the Emperors Children Gene-Seed still must function in some ways and they must have the need for it otherwise how would they replenish their rank? Unless there are no actual new Emperors Children and they use Gene-seed pillaged from other sources. Or do they even bother worrying about such trivial things as replenishing loses

The quote's from the Fulgrim and Perturabo romp, Angel Exterminatus. Some IW Apothecary extracts gene-seed from an Emperor's Children SM and realises it's mutated beyond usability or some such, but gets killed by Fabulous before he gets to run any tests.

 ChazSexington wrote:

The quote's from the Fulgrim and Perturabo romp, Angel Exterminatus. Some IW Apothecary extracts gene-seed from an Emperor's Children SM and realises it's mutated beyond usability or some such, but gets killed by Fabulous before he gets to run any tests.

Yes, between Fabulous and Honourable Soulaka, but is that true of all Emperors Children Geneseed? If it's true in all cases, how are there Emperors Children around today?

Perhaps they can't, perhaps they modify the Gene-seed of other chapters to take on traits of the Children, could explain how in the old 4th Chaos Codex the Flawless Host had Emperors Children Gene-seed Markers when they are their own chapter out right in 6th.

I guess you would have some form of Apothecary to be able to do that sort of shizzle.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It's a conceptual mismatch. Chaos comes with the idea that the strong will survive and the weak won't have a shot at catching the blessings of the gods, they're less interested in keeping everyone alive than the Imperium.

Chaos Space Marines have by the virtue of their status already proven themselves. They are very rare and expensive, so when one of them is wounded by, say, a lascannon, you'll want someone there to patch him up.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

The quote's from the Fulgrim and Perturabo romp, Angel Exterminatus. Some IW Apothecary extracts gene-seed from an Emperor's Children SM and realises it's mutated beyond usability or some such, but gets killed by Fabulous before he gets to run any tests.

Yes, between Fabulous and Honourable Soulaka, but is that true of all Emperors Children Geneseed? If it's true in all cases, how are there Emperors Children around today?

Perhaps they can't, perhaps they modify the Gene-seed of other chapters to take on traits of the Children, could explain how in the old 4th Chaos Codex the Flawless Host had Emperors Children Gene-seed Markers when they are their own chapter out right in 6th.

I guess you would have some form of Apothecary to be able to do that sort of shizzle.

Aye, that might be! Either way, fluff isn't technically canon in wh40k, and it could just be some of the Emperor's Children gene-seed that was wrecked, but I'm presuming warp mutation and genetic degeneration will mess up gene-seed eventually. I can't help but think that the Alpha Legion, 180,000 SMs strong at the outset of the Horus Heresy without any major losses during (compared to Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard), set up a galactic empire somewhere east, outside the range of the Astronomican while recruiting extensively from the entire Eastern Sector.

I can only imagine Emperor's Children Apothecaries with giant vials of ecstasy running around punching needle gauntlets into random CSM on the battlefield.

They are known to steal geneseed from Loyalist Space Marines.

You don't survive 10,000 years of battle by being an idiot. I imagine that warp mutation can cause problems for the geneseed being held inside the marine, but I reckon that if it was stored safely then it wouldn't be affected by the warp.

You all should read "Soul Hunter", "Blood Reaver", and "Void Stalker". A trilogy of the near destruction and death of the Night Lords 8th and 9th company.
It follows an ex apothocary now prophet, who leads the remnants of the war band on a quest across the stars. Helping the Red Corsairs and double crossing Huron Blackheart. Killing Eldar and human alike. He is hunted by the Eldar of Ulthwe and eventually slain before the Eldar prophecy can play out.

Has three apothocarys just right off the top of my head. It is a very good read.

Haaaay Huron!

You wanna pay me to do essperiments on your Corsairs? It'll be super fun! And maybe after we can do something about that hair! Un-uh girlfren! Fabby will get you yo groove back!

 jackflashultra wrote:
You all should read "Soul Hunter", "Blood Reaver", and "Void Stalker". A trilogy of the near destruction and death of the Night Lords 8th and 9th company.
It follows an ex apothocary now prophet, who leads the remnants of the war band on a quest across the stars. Helping the Red Corsairs and double crossing Huron Blackheart. Killing Eldar and human alike. He is hunted by the Eldar of Ulthwe and eventually slain before the Eldar prophecy can play out.

Has three apothocarys just right off the top of my head. It is a very good read.

Just thought you should no Talos is a mistranslation and most real fans prefer to spell it Taloth. Not meant as a dis I just thought that you should know that. It's more true to the original drama of the books and some people consider it disrespectful to the characters' sadness at his sacrifice. Like I said just those thought you would want to know that.

 jackflashultra wrote:
You all should read "Soul Hunter", "Blood Reaver", and "Void Stalker". A trilogy of the near destruction and death of the Night Lords 8th and 9th company.
It follows an ex apothocary now prophet, who leads the remnants of the war band on a quest across the stars. Helping the Red Corsairs and double crossing Huron Blackheart. Killing Eldar and human alike. He is hunted by the Eldar of Ulthwe and eventually slain before the Eldar prophecy can play out.

Has three apothocarys just right off the top of my head. It is a very good read.

The Eldar Prophecy did come to pass, Decimus was the prophet foretold to unite the Night Lords, not Talos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jackflashultra wrote:
You all should read "Soul Hunter", "Blood Reaver", and "Void Stalker". A trilogy of the near destruction and death of the Night Lords 8th and 9th company.
It follows an ex apothocary now prophet, who leads the remnants of the war band on a quest across the stars. Helping the Red Corsairs and double crossing Huron Blackheart. Killing Eldar and human alike. He is hunted by the Eldar of Ulthwe and eventually slain before the Eldar prophecy can play out.

Has three apothocarys just right off the top of my head. It is a very good read.

The Eldar Prophecy did come to pass, Decimus was the prophet foretold to unite the Night Lords, not Talos.

You are correct sir but in the story the Eldar thought Taloth was the the one the prophecy spoke of. Thats why they let so many of there own get slaughtered by Malcarion and First claw in salamander termi armour and so on.

 jackflashultra wrote:
You all should read "Soul Hunter", "Blood Reaver", and "Void Stalker". A trilogy of the near destruction and death of the Night Lords 8th and 9th company.
It follows an ex apothocary now prophet, who leads the remnants of the war band on a quest across the stars. Helping the Red Corsairs and double crossing Huron Blackheart. Killing Eldar and human alike. He is hunted by the Eldar of Ulthwe and eventually slain before the Eldar prophecy can play out.

Has three apothocarys just right off the top of my head. It is a very good read.

Cheers, I was more wondering what they all do these days.

In 4th and 5th ed I would use the guy carrying the Mark of Nurgle to represent an apothecary, and had him done up with Apothecary equipment.

Also where are you all getting Taloth from, its just Talos in the book.

My raptors are renegade marines. They follow Slaanesh. I converted/painted one up to look like a corrupted apothecary. Rules-wise I treat him as an Icon of Excess.

I think most chaos marines who were apothecaries have abandoned the battlefield medic aspect; chaos marines are selfish ego maniacs and are often uncaring towards their comrades. Further, chaos space marines usually have very poor gene seed, rendering another battlefield aspect of the apothecary (collecting geneseed from the slain) pointless.

Finally, the creation of new chaos space marines is described as brutally violent and crude. A mix of dark science and magic with a failure rate obscenely higher than even that of loyalist chapters.

I get the impression chaos space marines just cut open their aspirants (without sharp/hygienic tools nor anaesthetic), insert gene seed and say a few daemonic prayers/rituals and hope for the best rather than following any tried and tested process. If the aspirant dies, survives or begins to develop into a space marine is more or less left to the will of the gods.