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Vash108 wrote: Going to say what I say every time this thread pops up in one way or another.
Fantasy Flight will buy them and everything will be good.
I think that is very unlikely... but I really wish that it would happen.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Vash108 wrote: Going to say what I say every time this thread pops up in one way or another.
Fantasy Flight will buy them and everything will be good.
I think that is very unlikely... but I really wish that it would happen.
The Auld Grump
Not that I wouldn't be happy for GW's worlds to managed with the respect and affection FFG seem able to provide, not only is FFG's turnover less than 1/4 GW's, they are - as I already pointed out - already owned by someone else, and in no place to make an offer on a business with a c$200 million market cap.
Vash108 wrote: Going to say what I say every time this thread pops up in one way or another.
Fantasy Flight will buy them and everything will be good.
I think that is very unlikely... but I really wish that it would happen.
The Auld Grump
Not that I wouldn't be happy for GW's worlds to managed with the respect and affection FFG seem able to provide, not only is FFG's turnover less than 1/4 GW's, they are - as I already pointed out - already owned by someone else, and in no place to make an offer on a business with a c$200 million market cap.
Give it a few more years, considering GW's trends over the last few years.
WotC doesn't need to own GW for a Warhammer-themed M:tG block to happen. Hell, Kamigawa happened and they don't own L5R.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
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They either run with it and the game continues: we also find out what focus the new owner has.
OR
Someone sits on it. Does nothing. Decides nothing. It gets fan supported. People wait to see if the hammer drops with a cease and desist.
- IF nothing is said by the owner it lives in a zombie state with the insane amount of models floating around, may even see some growth from fan "better" rules.
- IF something IS said. The game dies. Dead. Done. We tried.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/13 21:21:28
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Talizvar wrote: Say they go bankrupt from some insane fluke.
Someone will get / buy the IP.
They either run with it and the game continues: we also find out what focus the new owner has.
OR
Someone sits on it. Does nothing. Decides nothing. It gets fan supported. People wait to see if the hammer drops with a cease and desist.
- IF nothing is said by the owner it lives in a zombie state with the insane amount of models floating around, may even see some growth from fan "better" rules.
- IF something IS said. The game dies. Dead. Done. We tried.
OR
No one bothers buying it because it really is not worth as much as GW believes that it is worth. (Not the case now - it currently still has some value - but given time I believe that Kirby and the Kronies can wring everything positive out of both of GW's primary properties.)
The Auld Grump... until even MLP40K looks good. (In The Grim Darkness Of The Future, Friendship Is Magic.)
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
WarbossDakka wrote: It would never get that bad. Remember GW is a international PC, so it will always have enough funds to get through the day.
Considering that larger international PCs have fallen... patently not true.
Unlikely? Perhaps.
But never is a long time.
Worse, GW could reach a stage where it never really goes out of business, but never produces anything at all.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
WarbossDakka wrote: It would never get that bad. Remember GW is a international PC, so it will always have enough funds to get through the day.
Bless you....
Have a cookie.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I see GW very much in the same boots as TSR and the current death of Radio Shack.
Overall, I think GW has become aware *something* is wrong, but because of their lack of merchant research, yesman mentality and social media isolation they have little to no idea what the real issue is.
Couple that together with a company that can't turn around on a dime - I'm sure it takes 6-8 months *minimum* for them to design a new model kit or product. They can't quickly pull out of a nosedive because of the turnaround schedule, even if they had a clue what was wrong.
By the time they see that hitting the pavement is inevitable, Kirby will have already pulled his golden parachute.
Stormonu wrote: Couple that together with a company that can't turn around on a dime - I'm sure it takes 6-8 months *minimum* for them to design a new model kit or product. They can't quickly pull out of a nosedive because of the turnaround schedule, even if they had a clue what was wrong.
You're forgetting about their ability to borrow. They have existing credit relationships with more than one financial institution (see their reports) and can likely operate for multiple years losing money.
The WFB rumours are already showing that GW can and will change directions when a product line fails. 8th edition was touted in an earlier report as a means of reversing the negative trend in sales during the last year of 7th edition. It didn't work and now they're doing massive changes. If 40k goes through a similar decline, they will have learned a lot about how to turn around a declining product with their relaunch of fantasy (be it in terms of what to do or in terms of what not to do).
By the time they see that hitting the pavement is inevitable, Kirby will have already pulled his golden parachute.
Kirby will likely formally retire before GW goes away. His golden parachute is already fully funded. He's a multimillionaire just off of LOTR bonuses from 2003 & 2004, not to mention the huge dividend and CEO's salary he's collected over the years. And when the time comes to divest himself of his shares, he's got enough contacts among the institutional investors who currently hold the majority of GW's shares to arrange a private sale. Or perhaps he'll use his clout on the board to exercise their right to buy back his shares (as authorized at GW's annual meeting every year).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/15 09:26:37
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
A big toy company like Hasbro buys the 40k and Fantasy licenses, they chuck out all the Codexes and Rulebooks, squat the least selling armies and reorganize the best sellers into a game of about four or five races a piece.
This will most likely be Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks on the 40k side and Empire, Elves, Undead, Warriors of Chaos, and Skaven on the Fantasy side.
They'll scrap all metal and finecast and use the assets that GW already has: their production lines, molds, plastics, paints, and all that, but undertake a massive 'repackaging' that puts everything under their own name and title.
They scrap the whole design studio, make their own in-house rules made to play on a smaller board, scrap terrain, scrap the paint, scrap the other tools, and create a streamlined, packaged experience where you buy whole sets of armies at packaged prices with rules for that army in the box, along with truncated rulebooks in each box to cover the 'USRs' and turns and such.
Worst case scenario:
They sell off their individual production assets in China, sell anything they can in the form of raw material (plastic, paper, etc), sack everyone, and the game fades into nonexistence, played by people still complaining that the game is unbalanced and getting model kits from Chinese knock-offers.
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that IF (since it will never happen) GW went bankrupt.
The only recourse would be the following.
A)Geiko would not save you 15% or more any longer on car insurance
B) The Dos Sekes (sp?) guy would stop drinking Dos Sekes, hence no longer making him the most interesting man in the world
C) and Chuck Norris would die
and maybe
D) I would apologize to Azreal13, recognizing him being a superior mind when it comes to GW and the great doomsday prophecy ability, unlocking much of his brain making him a world superpower no doubt.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/18 23:41:11
2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
Kindly demonstrate how it is impossible for any company to go bankrupt.
Then, kindly demonstrate how a company that has struggled to maintain it's financial performance for a number of years with a series of price increases and cost cutting measures can continue to do so with revenue falling towards their break even point and a decreasing list of costs that can be feasibly cut cannot possibly go bankrupt.
Show your working.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and snark all you want, I'm not responsible for your or anyone else's ignorance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AND, for the record, I have repeated until blue in the face that I do not predict, nor desire, the imminent demise of GW, I simp,y want them to act more like a normal company that talks to it's customer and responds to them, and the only way that'll happen is if people stop rewarding their crummy business practices with money.
Somehow, anything more complex than "if you're not mainlining the Koolaid that means you're a hater" seems to elude posters of a "certain view."
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 00:20:22
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Oh Az.... it was joke, not a snark, dont take things so personal.
For the record i didnt say it was impossible for "any company" to go bankrupt. I said GW (one company specifically) will never go bankrupt. You're already stretching the wording to have some long drawn out hypothesis on a "what if". We already had this debate Az about a year ago, basically the same type of thread... And for the year It seems like I was right, GW survived another year and not bankrupt.
And certainly this topic will come up again sooner or later, and for some its doomsday in the making for GW and for others we will read, enjoy, and disagree. Its not ignorance to declare something will never happen. However it is insanity to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.
However the topic was "what happens IF GW goes bankrupt"
I stand by my answers.
Oh you edited your post: "AND, for the record, I have repeated until blue in the face that I do not predict, nor desire, the imminent demise of GW, I simp,y want them to act more like a normal company that talks to it's customer and responds to them, and the only way that'll happen is if people stop rewarding their crummy business practices with money. "
I didnt say you WANT them to fall apart... I said you have stated it is a real possibility basically for the reasoning you gave above.
"Somehow, anything more complex than "if you're not mainlining the Koolaid that means you're a hater" seems to elude posters of a "certain view."
I think it was you reading more into what I wrote this time, appose to what I wrote.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 00:28:21
2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
Tone does not convey well in text always, and whatever your intent, your content was very similar to many people who seem to believe GW cannot possibly go bankrupt, or cease to exist in a different way, based on nothing but blind faith.
The fact is, there is hard evidence to support my view which is GW is on a rocky road if something doesn't change. If you disagree, that's fine, but I don't accept "because" as valid reasoning. If you're going to contradict me, you can be damn sure I'm going to insist on some substance to your contradictions.
I even got attacked for making arguments supported by GW's own figures the other week, down in 40K Discussion, by some of the rather more rabid true believers who weren't in possession of the facts, or, frankly, the knowledge to understand them, so don't be surprised if my reflex is inclined to the defensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 00:39:05
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
It also needs a definition of exactly constitutes "bankrupt." That's quite a specific term, and only one way GW could disappear, or cease to be recognisable in their current form.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal i know we disagree a lot. But I respect what you say and take what you say at face value. No offense was meant nor taken. I admire your zeal and conviction on your views, the thing about the internet is people are always going to lash out or find a reason to hate on anything anyone says, you know this. Me I am not the person who gets all worked up with rage typing behind a monitor over a game. Sadly tone does not transpire over the internet, and when 2 people people disagree, it may look like malicious fist flaying.
Having dealt with GMAC as a mortgage lender here in the USA, I understand how some companies think they are to big to fail. I don't see GW thinking they cant fail. And for every horror story about them, there is someone who had a good experience. Now I am not saying they do the right thing 100% of time. I am saying from all my years of dealing with them and from my personal knowledge of facts. GW has more chance of making it then failing, because they know Failure is a possibility and try to improve. Now the improvements sometimes might be terrible to many, but they are trying. The day they think they are to big to fail, my tone will switch on them.
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
People wanted more models, GW made them, but people still dislike them.
People wanted more up to date 40k codex to help balance the game. GW did the codex transition in a timely manner, yet people are still saying one codex sucks, or this one is OP or simply complaining. Or the writer of X codex is terrible human.
People started complaining the models were over priced, yet I dont recall big price hikes recently. And with the extra bits and sprues in box sets I dont see most as over priced (the last i recall would be 10 which elves for $60). Again, this is all interpretation and opinion, and I am sure people will disagree and thats their opinion.
I guess my point is, they are trying it seems. And to me doing just fine with the product lines, rules, codex release, and pricing.
THEKLOB
Gentlemens wager? Terms and stakes?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 01:11:51
2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
It's a joke on your wording. Were we to make a bet on there never being a demise of GW then I'd have everything to win and nothing to lose. You cannot prove that GW will "never" fail in any sense while I only need one instance of their ending as a business to win. It's a "sucker's bet" and never is a long time.
*I am not Ken Lobb, nor am I named after the fictitious weapon in Goldeneye for the Nintendo 64. There's a second B.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/19 02:59:20
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Awesome, may it baffle and confuse many peopl for as long as you wish to keep it there.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
Maybe if they wrote clear rules these arguments wouldn't happen. If that how it's worded it's pretty clear but we're talkng about a company that has a track record for writing vague rules that require interpretation of exactly what the hell they actually intend it to be. There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 12:19:44
I see GW as a company that must get flooded with complaints and questions. 10% have validity and 90% is people complaining for the sake of complaining, writing emails because they don't understand the wording in a book, or just emo kids blaming something because their friends destroy them at the game.
EXAMPLE: New Necron codex. A specific formation says 1 unit of scarabs, 1 UNIT of wraiths, and then 1 tomb spider (no UNIT)
But because the formation would be so much more potent if you could take a unit of spiders appose to just 1. There have already been countless post across the internet arguing RAW, RAI, "GW needs to FAQ to clearify"... blah blah blah... Yet the wording is pretty clear. I can only imagine the amount of calls or emails that flood GW over this. And when those complaints are not all answered, GW is evil. Post get created, more attention is put on it, and it opens the flood gate.
This is just one paragraph in a page in a book with 100's of pages in it, part of a game that has many more books.
Maybe if they wrote clear rules these arguments wouldn't happen. If that how it's worded it's pretty clear but we're talking about a company that has a track record for writing vague rules that require interpretation of exactly what the hell they actually intend it to be. There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past.
Hahahah, Sorry, the entries writing is clear (If you are on toilet and you run out of toilet paper, you yell out and say grab me a roll of toilet paper, does your significant other stop to ask if you want 1 case of rolled toilet paper, or just 1 roll? Imagine if he/she opened the door and threw a case of 36 mega rolls at you?) Cmon...
Its the nitpicking and having a lack of fundamental understanding that creates the problem 90% of the time. It says 1 spider, it is 1 SPIDER.. It does not say Unit as the other 2 entries. People can throw their opinion out all they want, they can complain because of the history, they can make an argument because ti benefits their list, they can claim this rule is vague or whatever but just read it for what it says and move on.
To argue that "There's no way of knowing if they actually intended 1 Spyder or what because they've been so inconsistent in the past." when it indeed says 1 spider and not 1 unit of spiders, is really grasping for straws. To make any argument because of watever reason, is nothing more than creating more of the problem and needless complaining. It says, 1 Spider, it means 1 spider, get over it and move on.... Let go of the "they did this is in 2013 with the wording in X so they must be meaning X even though they wrote Y.
But most cannot, and they bombard GW, forums, and blogs about how terrible GW is. Yet the very same people are still buying the models and playing the game. I think GW is at the point where they must have a contest for the most ridiculous complaint or question about the rules each month and just laugh and have a field day with it. They have come to terms they will never satisfy everyone or certain type of people. Then they realize business is going to be just fine still and stop wasting time and energy on the those who will never be satisfied.
Frankly some people love to think they are a better writer, historian, or sculptor than anyone at GW. Just like the constant people bashing anything Star Wars related, "luke is old", "carrie is fat", "the new light saber looks stupid".... Yet the same bloggers will go see the movie, and Star Wars will continue to be a phenomenon .
I guess in the end, this topic will die down and about a year from now this thread will start again.
Play the game and have fun with it, if their is a vague rule, roll off on it. Most tourneys have structured formats and caps of rulings, just go and have some fun with the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 13:24:12
2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
If I buy any item, and find that a feature doesn't work as described, or that I have trouble operating, do you think I'd accept "it's ok,just keep using it, it'll work fine approximately 50% of the time" as an appropriate response from the manufacturer?
As I've said in another thread recently, you don't write rules for reasonable people, you write rules for the little fethers who will invest so much into winning that they'll think nothing of spoiling a reasonable person's fun to do so.
Are making reference to the item being bought and not operating, to the Necron Codex?
No one knows whats in the Codex... so you are not buying it knowing. "There is this wicked formation, that allows a unit of spiders and X also". You do not know what is in the book, now if photos are leaked of the book and you see that entry, then you saw the wording prior to buying the codex, and you see it says 1 spider, hence you know how the item is going to operate.
Now perhaps there are other points that have happened to better validate what you said. I am not disputing that. I am simply stating that the Necron codex formation in question is not one of those points, and the fact that so much is created over it is nonsense and more flubber and garbage GW has to deal with, or more fire thrown on the 'GW is terrible fire'. When it should in fact be none of the above.
Also, the rules I dont think are written to target a specific person. I think they opened the flood gates, by allowing LoW, or dual cads or whatever. And while I self impose restrictions when I play in tourneys, I like the idea of the 40k world in chaos. I like that Orks and Necrons are going to team up to vanquish bugs. I like that Necrons are pissed so they brought some big super heavy to battle.
What I do not like is the named characters abuse, like someone fielding. Draigo, Tigerius and Severin Loth all in the same 1850 list... Like really all these big wigs showed up to this little skirmish? But I know its out there and available to others, I know I will see it so I prepare for and just be solution oriented when it happens. If I lose to it, i simply shake hands and move on understanding its part of the game, I willfully choose to participate in.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/19 13:39:56
2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
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