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So I was looking recently at the differences between the SM and AM tanks and other armour, and I recalled the lore supposedly saying that SM tanks can't be obtained by any other branch of the Imperium due to their advanced designs, and superiority to other armour.

When you compare their armour and armaments however, it seemed to me as though the better MBT between the Russ and Predator... was the Russ?
With better armour overall (14/13/10 vs. 13/11/10) and better stock weaponry, as well as a staggering amount of varients, it seems as though the more 'advanced' Predator is actually worse off...

Comparing the transports; these are a little more similar (12/10/10 on the chimera, to the rhino's 11/11/10), yet the armament difference is still in the chimera's favour, I feel.

Am I wrong here? Can anyone shine some light on why the AM's vehicles seem to be superior to the SM's?

Game mechanics.

To draw semi-WW2-treadhead players to the IG faction designs.




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In before 'Because IG tanks are better. (: (: (:' IGhammerists.

No but really, the Russ is very cost efficient, but in quality on a tank per tank basis SM tanks are better.

Otherwise SM would use Russes.

Also, game balance. You can't have both trash units and trash armor, that makes for an unplayable army.

yes game balance.
The fluff has the predator better/equally armored to the leman russ.
Leman Russ armor is 200 and 180mm at the thickest places.
Predator has 65mm spess mehren armor, which equals to 200mm of regular armor (according to IA2)

The Leman Russ has the better firepower. It's a main battle tank/ break through tank and it's slow. The Predator is a fast more agile vehicle (the superior suspension allows higher terrain speed), fitting to the SM style, but with less dakka.
Still, the "autocannon" is propably similar to an automatic naval cannon then to an autocannon you have on a modern APC (just look at the size of it). I bit like this 127mm "automatic" cannon (skip to 5min)



The biggest advantage i assume however is under the hood, with more complex and advanced fire systems, "multispectral" sights and so on.

 Keep wrote:
The Leman Russ has the better firepower. It's a main battle tank/ break through tank and it's slow. The Predator is a fast more agile vehicle (the superior suspension allows higher terrain speed), fitting to the SM style, but with less dakka.

This.
Marines aren't supposed to be re-fighting Kursk - that's the job of the Imperial Guard. Marines are supposed to be using their superior mobility to exploit weaknesses or launch a rapid surprise attack against key objectives. Predators therefore seem to function as medium tanks, even though they mass slightly more than the Leman Russ heavy tanks.
Land Raiders seem to be for those situations where the marines do have to attack a well-prepared enemy. The Land Raider is like a mini-Gorgon, but with MOAR DAKKA. It has far superior armour than other transports, allowing the marines to get to the objective. Note that assault transports would be more important in an assault than in a defense (yes, I'm stating the obvious). It therefore fits the marines well, since marines are supposed to be attacking, not defending.
As for the rhino vs. chimera... I'm not sure. They both have the same speed, but the rhino has less mass - perhaps that helps aerial transport?

 Keep wrote:
The biggest advantage i assume however is under the hood, with more complex and advanced fire systems, "multispectral" sights and so on.

That would make sense. Imperial Guard stuff tends to be cheap, rugged, and easy to use. Just compare the remotely controlled predator sponsons with those of the Russ.

The stats reflect the origin of the vehicles. When GW invented the Leman Russ for Epic the Predator was used by both Guard and Marines - the Leman Russ was intended to be the guards equivalent of the Land Raider not the Predator. The modern stats still reflect this, the problem is fanbois at GW padding up the fluff of their armies stuff without amending the rules to match.

Well I always thought that Leman Russ got shootier guns because they are the main battle tanks. LRBT's chassis is made for LRBT -- it's meant to be built into a tank, its hull is designed to be big enough to house a full tank crew, loads o' ammunition, and multiple BFGs.

Predators use Rhino chassis, it's almost just a AFV, or a Light Tank (although a Predator battle tank is better armored than, say, a Chimera-- and likely more mobile than LRBT), meant for recon (yes) and supporting roles.

Although I suppose if GW wants to, they can just say that because Rhino, Predator, Razorback, Whirwind, Vindicator, Stalker, and whatever the other non-bike, non-Landspeeder, non-landraidr vehicles all use the same chassis, the chapters can reduce the variety of parts they must "procure" in order to properly maintain their armories, therefore reduce their logistical complexity.

 lcmiracle wrote:
loads o' ammunition

With that caliber?

Mallich wrote:
This.
Marines aren't supposed to be re-fighting Kursk - that's the job of the Imperial Guard. Marines are supposed to be using their superior mobility to exploit weaknesses or launch a rapid surprise attack against key objectives. Predators therefore seem to function as medium tanks, even though they mass slightly more than the Leman Russ heavy tanks.

According to the VDR, the Predator, despite its stats, is actually supposed to be a light tank.

It would be nice if Predators got access to Fast, which only the Blood Angels get because of reasons.

The Predator is basically a light tank, not a heavy or main battle tank.

In the fluff, Rhinos, and all vehicles based on that chassis, are faster than their rough equivalents in the IG. They fit into the role of marines being a mobile fighting force. A predator gives you fast pinpoint anti-tank. Its not for taking on dug in positions with heavy ordinance, thats the job of the Vindicator and Whirlwind.

And even then, the Vindicator and Whirlwind still emphasize mobile warfare over static. The Vindicator has a fixed, very large, gun. Its meant to punch through a line quickly with other vehicles following in its wake. The Whirlwind is meant to launch a rocket barrage and quickly relocate.

The Lemun Russ is meant for massed armored engagements and for static long range bombardment. It can sit in an entrenched position bombarding the enemy till the order is given to charge with thousands of its buddies.

Also, the differences between Light, medium, heavy, and main battle tanks has nothing to do with weight. It has to do with battlefield role.

Light tanks are designed for rapid movement and reconnaissance, as well as support of troops in areas or operations where main battle tanks cannot be used. The last bit is what applies to marines especially.

Medium tanks are basically a compromise between heavy and light tanks. the Main Battle Tank design is the evolution of this idea.

Heavy tanks are tanks that trade mobility for greater armor and firepower. Designed almost exclusively with the idea of breaking enemy defenses in mind, although they have great use defensively as well.

Main Battle Tanks are basically an amalgamation of prior tank designs and advancing technology. Roughly the size of medium tanks, but sporting armor and armament more akin to a heavy tank, but still more lightly armored than a true heavy tank with equivalent armor technology would have.

It should be noted that although tank armor has become more advanced, it hasn't actually made the vehicles more survivable. It does reduce crew fatality though.

All Rhino tanks have this critically important thing called suspension. Which is something virtually all IG vehicles lack.


Also, not even all modern tank armor is fantastic. That godawful spawn of a vehicle, the Bradley, has less armor then a fething Sherman from WWII. And it's made out of aluminum!

To me its the difference between something like the harrier/osprey vs f-18s (or to be more fluff accurate f-4s).

The harrier/osprey is made with a very specific mission in mind, having the ability to take off and land almost anywhere to to VTOL while still having close-airsupport capabilities.

however, a harrier/osprey is going to get smoked by an f-4 even though the f-4 is an older design. The f-4 is a dedicated fighter/bomber that doesn't have to sacrifice its design fto be vtol.

The predator has to sacrifice its design to be easily transportable, making it lighter but less armored as well having less weapons cababliity.

The russ is a huge weapons platform, that has no need to be light or easily transportable.


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 Wyzilla wrote:
All Rhino tanks have this critically important thing called suspension. Which is something virtually all IG vehicles lack.


Also, not even all modern tank armor is fantastic. That godawful spawn of a vehicle, the Bradley, has less armor then a fething Sherman from WWII. And it's made out of aluminum!

calling a bradley a tank is strectching the definition of tank. Fluff wise its more like the taurox than a traditional tank (yes i know the codex calls the taurox a tank)

Because the Space Marines are a rapid-response force running stuff that they have to be able to deploy from Thunderhawks while the AM have the luxury of sitting in one place for years at a time shooting at people.

definatly tend to think the predator's differance is proably "under the hood"

one thing to remember is that as a heavy vehicle the LRBT is stuck moving at combat speed. and CANNOT move flat out. so the predator has a advantage over the LRBT in manvuerability even without the "fast" advantage (fast though would give it IMHO a decisive advantage)

so let's assume for a minute that the infamous "Marines Generic!" chapter of space Marines, is engaged in a campaign against rebel forces. A tank hunting Predator Annialator runs into a tank hunting Leman Russ Vanquisher.
As both units are equiped for tank hunting and need spare no expense (Points? Balance? what are these things?! )

The Annialator Pattern Predator is equipped with a Turret mounted Twin lascanon, and Sponson Mounted Lascanons. is Also has a searchlight and smoke launchers.

The LRBT Vanquisher has the mighty Vanquisher canon, which GW assures us is particularly good at cracking nuts. a forward mounted Lascanon and Mult-melta Sponsons.

for those whom care about such things the point cost for this is Space Marines: 140, Imperial Guard: 155. Close eneugh although the god emperor (and odds makers) would clearly favor the LRBT. so... what would need to be done by each to win?

the Vanquisher canon has a pretty solid range advantage if the IG player stays put and keeps the predator at a distance he'll eventually win. course this is assuming the predator is piloted by and idiot. the pred WILL close. within 48 inches of range the predator can begin to open up, but the LR can add it's own front mounted las canon to the mix. so long as the fighting is kept to the front arc, I tend to be inclined to give the advntage to the Lemen russ. but it'll be a chancy battle eaither way.

the way the predator is gonna win, is to use it's slightly superior agility to manuver into position at the sides or rear of the LR. (he'll need to also dictate range to keep outta range of those sponson Meltas) if the predator commander can do that, he's got great odds of putting it down.


TLDR in a predator vs LR battle all things being mostly equal, it'll be a battle of manuver vs raw firepower. terrain and the SM commanders skill will be critical to the success or failure of eaither side.


damnit, makes me almost wanna write some "LR vs predator" fic.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It would be nice if Predators got access to Fast, which only the Blood Angels get because of reasons.

Predator goes 65 km/h max on flat terrain. That doesnt quallify as "fast vehicle". It's still a normal tank. That BA have the fast rule is just BS imo. Chimera's are faster with 70km/h.
The Leman Russ is slow with avg of 35km/h (depending on variant), but that doesnt make the Predator a "fast" vehicle, If at all, the Leman Russ should be a slow vehicle in the rules. (which at some point it was - lumbering behemoth rule).
Fast should be reserved for thing that are really fast. 120km/h and faster. You can't make a 44ton tank drive at that speed "just like that". It will tear itself apart, particulary when driving in terrain. There's a reason why tanks don't drive at max speed through rough terrain. Not because the engine can't deliver, but because it would result in a broken tank extremely quickly.

The Chimera is an Infantry fighting vehicle (means it deploys its troops and then stays with them to give its firepower). The Rhino is just a transport, and although armored and armed (lightly), it's best to redraw it from line of fire to keep it intact for when it is needed. The Chimera is actually quite heavy and well armored (for a IFV) if you compared it to the leman russ


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BrianDavion wrote:
damnit, makes me almost wanna write some "LR vs predator" fic.

lets be honest... it would just end up like this with the panzer 3 beeing the predator...

 King Vicious wrote:
So I was looking recently at the differences between the SM and AM tanks and other armour, and I recalled the lore supposedly saying that SM tanks can't be obtained by any other branch of the Imperium due to their advanced designs, and superiority to other armour.

When you compare their armour and armaments however, it seemed to me as though the better MBT between the Russ and Predator... was the Russ?
With better armour overall (14/13/10 vs. 13/11/10) and better stock weaponry, as well as a staggering amount of varients, it seems as though the more 'advanced' Predator is actually worse off...

Comparing the transports; these are a little more similar (12/10/10 on the chimera, to the rhino's 11/11/10), yet the armament difference is still in the chimera's favour, I feel.

Am I wrong here? Can anyone shine some light on why the AM's vehicles seem to be superior to the SM's?

Much of this comes down to the very basic level of the rules. It's simulating imaginary battles between evenly matched forces on neutral terrain.

Something that never, ever happens in real combat.

It's also suck differentiating between 16.6% values, with generic rules for movement. It's like discussing "human sized" power armor vs "Space Marine sized" power armor. Power armor is a 3+. There's a 16.6% gap between a 3+, and a 4+ or 2+. It's difficult to get any level of detail when you're dealing with that kind of gap. So a Space Marine is just as accurate as an IGuard veteran, and somehow Straken's bionics make him 50% tougher than a Space Marine, lol.

It's also the battlefield role. These are variables that don't really come into play on the tabletop. The Predator has to be light enough to be carried by a Thunderhawk and fast enough to keep up with other Space Marine Rhino-based vehicles. So while the Land Raider is a Main Battle Tank, the Predator is a light tank. Which is fine. Space Marine Chapters have far less use for heavier tanks like the Leman Russ. If they do, they're fighting the wrong kind of battles.

 Keep wrote:
Predator goes 65 km/h max on flat terrain. That doesnt quallify as "fast vehicle".

Although IA statistics are largely nonsensical, the Baal Predator is only stated to be 3kph faster on-road. The "Fast" rule does not actually mean much for the vehicle's speed, just how much going at top speed reduces its performance. If the Predator is meant to be agile, it needs the Fast rule to represent that. Otherwise it's just blatantly inferior to the Leman Russ in every way except BS4 (which has nothing to do with the vehicle). The Sicaran is Fast (and better in every way). A relic, sure, but the Blood Angels prove that making the existing Predator a Fast vehicle can be done. As with many Chapter-specific technologies (like the Dark Angels Land Raider Ares and worse, their Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts - because putting autocannons on both sides of a Dreadnought requires extra special technology that nobody can figure out), its exclusivity is just silliness. Normal Predators being able to upgrade to Fast would make them actually decent, as well as justify their existence in fluff.

The idea of Predators being intended as a highly mobile tank is good, but the majority of their lore talks at length about how wondrously strong their armour is and how terribly powerful their weapons are. The Rhino is similarly spoken of like it's practically indestructible, despite being inferior in just about every way to the far more common Chimera and being one of the weakest vehicles in the game.

high mobility is relative... its more mobile then leman russ (which should be slower) but certainly not more mobile then chimeras and other tanks/vehicles. It's not exceptional for a tank. It's normal. There. I said it.

Although IA statistics are largely nonsensical, the Baal Predator is only stated to be 3kph faster on-road. The "Fast" rule does not actually mean much for the vehicle's speed, just how much going at top speed reduces its performance.

that doesnt make any sense, since the fast rule gives it double movement range. That means speed should be way more then just +5%. The thing that doesnt make any sense is the fast rule, not the IA stats.

its exclusivity is just silliness. Normal Predators being able to upgrade to Fast would make them actually decent, as well as justifying their existence in fluff.

Mounting weapons on an arm is less complicated then creating a totally new engine, gearbox and the rest that comes with it that somehow magically doubles speed. This is entirely against every piece of fluff known. The entire imperium doesnt have the ability to engineer quality stuff from scratch on their own. And neither do BA! That's why the stats are just 3kph more, because that is believable from a background perspective, its just an adjusted/slightly tuned system, not a new one. This would in no way impact the game with its low level of fidelity. They just wanted to make BA feel like a special flower, because they wouldnt take it very well if somebody would throw them off their high horse. That's all there is to it.

So a vehicle moving faster than a jogging Imperial Guardsman is nonsense? Also, an extra 6'' when going Flat Out is not "double speed".

Unless you want to give all tanks (apart from superheavies and leman russ) the fast rule, yes its nonsense

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Keep wrote:
Predator goes 65 km/h max on flat terrain. That doesnt quallify as "fast vehicle".

Although IA statistics are largely nonsensical, the Baal Predator is only stated to be 3kph faster on-road. The "Fast" rule does not actually mean much for the vehicle's speed, just how much going at top speed reduces its performance. If the Predator is meant to be agile, it needs the Fast rule to represent that. Otherwise it's just blatantly inferior to the Leman Russ in every way except BS4 (which has nothing to do with the vehicle). The Sicaran is Fast (and better in every way). A relic, sure, but the Blood Angels prove that making the existing Predator a Fast vehicle can be done. As with many Chapter-specific technologies (like the Dark Angels Land Raider Ares and worse, their Mortis-pattern Dreadnoughts - because putting autocannons on both sides of a Dreadnought requires extra special technology that nobody can figure out), its exclusivity is just silliness. Normal Predators being able to upgrade to Fast would make them actually decent, as well as justify their existence in fluff.

The idea of Predators being intended as a highly mobile tank is good, but the majority of their lore talks at length about how wondrously strong their armour is and how terribly powerful their weapons are. The Rhino is similarly spoken of like it's practically indestructible, despite being inferior in just about every way to the far more common Chimera and being one of the weakest vehicles in the game.

They are superior. Chimeras and Leman Russes are terrible vehicles that lack freaking suspension and are more primitive than some WWII tanks in some aspects.

Telmenari wrote:
Also, game balance. You can't have both trash units and trash armor, that makes for an unplayable army.

Tell that to the Orks.

Trash is great when it's cheap.

If I were at GW, I'd reverse the AV of the Predator/LR and Rhino/Chimera, and just make the IG stuff cheaper. Fluff-wise, IG succeed because they have a lot more stuff than everyone else, not because their stuff is good.


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 Wyzilla wrote:
All Rhino tanks have this critically important thing called suspension. Which is something virtually all IG vehicles lack.


Also, not even all modern tank armor is fantastic. That godawful spawn of a vehicle, the Bradley, has less armor then a fething Sherman from WWII. And it's made out of aluminum!

It has laminated aluminum armor and is often equipped with ERA.

That being said, it's an infantry transport that transports hardly any troops, a scout that's too conspicuous to scout, and a tank that can't actually fight tanks.

If you've never seen Pentagon Wars, it's awesome. Watch it.

Fluff-wise, IG succeed because they have a lot more stuff than everyone else, not because their stuff is good.

No they succeed because they have the most firepower through battletanks and artillery. They have the real battletanks. Other races not really, they are all have mobility or range as their trait. Not armor or high explosivess

 Ashiraya wrote:
Game mechanics.

This. Back when the Predator was first designed its single autocannon turret was actually a pretty good weapon, it's just a victim of GW changing autocannons into a weak weapon and never bothering to update the poor Predator. Similarly, both the LC and AC variants suffer from the problem that all "lascannons" and "autocannons" are considered the same weapon, even though the main gun of a tank (which is bigger, has much more space for batteries, etc) should be more powerful than a similar weapon carried by infantry. If you fix the game mechanics to represent the guns the model is actually armed with then the AC Predator is a good multi-role tank that can engage both infantry and light vehicles effectively, while the LC Predator is a good tank hunter with unlimited ammunition and perfect accuracy (two things the LR Vanquisher can only dream of). That's not bad for a tank that has strict weight and speed limits to deal with.

Quantity vs quality in the fluff anyway.

There are thousands of IG model tanks to a single a marine one, they have much more advanced tech and materials, and much more hand made, more Religiously labored over than churned out by thousands per day.

A leman Russ is a slow steady gun platform that's easy to maintain and reliable to a fault.

 King Vicious wrote:
With better armour overall (14/13/10 vs. 13/11/10)

But 13/11/10 isn't really a bad stat line for a tank that has a strict mobility requirement. A Hammerhead (a fast gunship with a similar design concept) has 13/12/10, and that's in a game where the entire range from "no armor at all" to "heaviest armor that can possibly exist" is represented by only six discrete values. So all an AV 13 stat line really says is that the Predator's armor isn't quite as good as the heaviest tanks, which isn't surprising at all given its role. In a game with more possible armor values it might even be a bit better than some of the other AV 13 vehicles, just like a lasgun is clearly more powerful than a laspistol even though both guns are considered STR 3 AP - in the rules.

Plus i might add a 70 ish ton land raider has same armour as 2-300 tons of baneblade, yes a few special rules but bupy the rules that hull armour has the same value.

And that the same as the front of a leman Russ. So by maths the front plate on a mass produced tank is same as a truely Advanced land raider.

 jhe90 wrote:
Quantity vs quality in the fluff anyway.

There are thousands of IG model tanks to a single a marine one, they have much more advanced tech and materials, and much more hand made, more Religiously labored over than churned out by thousands per day.

A leman Russ is a slow steady gun platform that's easy to maintain and reliable to a fault.

Ooh! I know!

Each Russ on the field is actually three Russes who all act as a single unit! Hence the extreme toughness - they're like Swarm bases!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Quantity vs quality in the fluff anyway.

There are thousands of IG model tanks to a single a marine one, they have much more advanced tech and materials, and much more hand made, more Religiously labored over than churned out by thousands per day.

A leman Russ is a slow steady gun platform that's easy to maintain and reliable to a fault.

Ooh! I know!

Each Russ on the field is actually three Russes who all act as a single unit! Hence the extreme toughness - they're like Swarm bases!

There like well armoured Sherman tanks.
You destroy one and the factory has 5 more waiting to ship out to war zones. The never ending swarm of bpxy boxy metallic bees!