Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Martel732 wrote: "-The only thing that I can see making the Riptide more survivable is the fact it has the advantage of range with shooting when it comes to the Dreadknight"
That, and better saves. And access to FNP. Don't forget that. And even that one thing you listed is enormous. Huge. Go look at how many weapons can even reach past 36" and then look at what the Dreadknight has to voluntarily move into within range of.
Again you are making it sound so misleading. It does not come with a better save, it has to roll for it and it has a chance to fail 1/3 of the time which is a pretty bad statistic when compared to Psychic powers. The Feel No Pain is a very expensive upgrade that means your not taking Interceptor or Skyfire, maybe we should mention that with the Psychic powers the Dreadknight can get they can do some pretty nasty things. The Dreadknight ignores the range factor unlike most units because it can move 30 inches and then shoot and has a great chance to wipe out whatever its shooting at before they can return fire on top of being cheaper so you can take more of them. Tit for tat bro, its a different play style for two different armies the Dreadknight is just as nasty as the Riptide in its designed role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 08:16:06
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
" has a great chance to wipe out whatever its shooting at before they can return fire"
Not really.
" Dreadknight is just as nasty as the Riptide in its designed role. "
I bet the GK wish this were true.
" its a different play style "
Yeah, the GK have a play style where they have to actually get shot at by lots of weapons. You offhandedly mention the range issue, but this is a huge, huge issue. On top of the superior saves 66% of the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 09:12:22
Oh, okay. Let me just grab my AP 2 weapons that swing at init....
Oh. My faction doesn't have any.
Well surely i have lots of small guys that can swing in melee, yes?
What's that? It has one of the largest range guns in the game and is extremely quick? And the army is one of the best in the game at removing lots of small guys, and I need to get through said army to reach it?
Well...bugger
.
well I think you just ned to have a better attitude about it. Lol. last time I looked, no Tau Empire force is unbeatable. Just sayin.
This is called a slippery slope.
No unit in a dice game is unbeatable. I can defeat a Tau opponent. But the more riptides he takes, the worse my chances are, and it's a nearly braindead unit to use or take.
Still, I appreciate your tactical insight and sound logic.
On topic;
I think in most games, even a 56% win rate is considered way too strong. In WMH, Cryx at one point had a win rate of 58% due to Gaspy 2 and he recieved 3 nerfs over the years. His feat was just incredible.
But the game has a lot more statistical data available for whatever reason. It's really hard to find information on the 'meta' in 40k. Hence these long discussions on which factions are op, or which units are just too good.
EDIT
And personal attacks from someone who didn't list a single point to back up a claim?
Nice.
Theres discussion and then there's brick walls. Now you're claiming that ayone wise enough to make use of a Riptide is... brain dead? This is the discussion i should engage in?
Strawman, I never said anyone using a Riptide is braindead. I said it's a braindead unit to use.
You sit it in cover, and just target units. With it's range and toughness, it doesn't need to move. The only threats it faces is
1) CC, which somehow got past the rest of your army
2) Deep striking units, which unless it's a gravstar, will invest more points then the riptide costs to kill it.
Compare that to the dreadknight, where you need to deploy him so he can reach cover, stay out of range of most guns at the end of T1 but still reach assault, and be careful he's not in the open at the end of each assault phase.
So yeah. It's a very simple unit to use. Hence triptide being a thing.
And to be fair, you personally attacked me in your last post, and have still not posted any reasons for why you alone see certain units as overpowered.
Quickjager wrote: He's saying that its hard to assault Tau, because he destroys the unit in assault on his turn and then gets shot to death.
My Night Lords solved it with their Rhinos. Shuts off the fire hose on the way in.
How does a rhino shut off the fire hose...?
You realize nobody is talking about overwatch, right?
They are saying you win assault, wipe the unit...and sit there.
Tau are so bad in melee you wipe them out on your turn most of the time. In 40k, that is awful. You really want to the wipe the unit on the enemy turn, so they can't shoot you.
They really need to make it so if a unit just won assault you can only target it with snap shots or something. As it is, you must be very tough to be an assault unit against most armies in this edition.
Edit;
gmaleron, I appreciate your detailed response. Sadly, at this time I don't have the time to respond to such a post and give it the attention it deserves.
I'll read it over later and respond in the same manner you did for me, which is always nice to read.
I do think we have some simple miscommunications but that is merely at first glance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 12:20:57
Martel732 wrote: "-The only thing that I can see making the Riptide more survivable is the fact it has the advantage of range with shooting when it comes to the Dreadknight"
That, and better saves. And access to FNP. Don't forget that. And even that one thing you listed is enormous. Huge. Go look at how many weapons can even reach past 36" and then look at what the Dreadknight has to voluntarily move into within range of.
Again you are making it sound so misleading. It does not come with a better save, it has to roll for it and it has a chance to fail 1/3 of the time which is a pretty bad statistic when compared to Psychic powers. The Feel No Pain is a very expensive upgrade that means your not taking Interceptor or Skyfire, maybe we should mention that with the Psychic powers the Dreadknight can get they can do some pretty nasty things. The Dreadknight ignores the range factor unlike most units because it can move 30 inches and then shoot and has a great chance to wipe out whatever its shooting at before they can return fire on top of being cheaper so you can take more of them. Tit for tat bro, its a different play style for two different armies the Dreadknight is just as nasty as the Riptide in its designed role.
The Riptide is already very expensive. FnP is a no-brainer upgrade. Especially to make it more survivable on top of mitigating the risk of hurting itself.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Yeah it happens a lot. i suppose if you just dont USE the Nova Reactor then sure. You'll be fine. That's a player choice. But in 6 turns, Im gonna give myself a 33% chance EVERY turn for six turns of losing wounds. FnP is cool but its no guarantee.
and that one loses a wound in round 1, lets say, doesnt reduce the chance at all of doing so again. So over six turns you usually lose a couple wounds to it assuming you use it as freely as I do (I figure they will wrap me up in melee at some point so why try and "save" them when Ill just die in melee anyways to anything hald way decent).
EDIT: Also if you have two of them then you're rolling twice as often so you REALLY cant underestimate that. that excludes the Gets hot rolls, which are in ADDITION to the Reactor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 22:51:53
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
I've actually seen Riptides win quite a few CCs 1-0 due to inability of the opponent to cause any wounds. S6 AP 2 melee attacks are nontrivial, especially against squads depleted from shooting.
First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 22:56:06
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Even at 3.75 W, let's say, it takes an absurd amount of long range firepower to kill one of these things. You can't assault them, because you can't catch them. You can't use short range guns because they will stay out of your range.
Martel732 wrote: I've actually seen Riptides win quite a few CCs 1-0 due to inability of the opponent to cause any wounds. S6 AP 2 melee attacks are nontrivial, especially against squads depleted from shooting.
Yup, they win sometimes. Its not impossible. I've done it. I am not going to bet on that, and a point that has been stated elsewhere: "winning" the combat as the Riptide being charged just gives the enemy a reprieve from my shooting. So even in victory I kinda lose. Lol. Best to consign it to the briney deep and avenge it.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Where?
I have honestly missed where you describe why the unit you alone feel is overpowered is. I've never seen the unit played, and if there is a hidden treasure there, I'd like to see it. I have failed to see you detail why the dreadknight is superior, or indeed, any MC in the game is superior to the Riptide.
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
That isn't really a strategy. We can discuss standard deviation if you want, so we can determine just how accurate those averages are, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying "luck should be enough" isn't a viable strategy.
And yes, most shooting units with an incredibly long range don't require a great amount of work to use. If the guns are strong, the unit fast, and it is very tough, then its very easy to use. You may not like it, but there is no Riptide tactica or strategy that involves more than
"Do not deploy like an idiot. Place toe in area terrain. Pick unit. Delete Unit. Run if something approaches" Compare that to something like the Dreadknight, and it comes out very braindead to use indeed.
That said, I've used brain dead units before. Longfangs in the old SW dex were the most braindead unit in the game at the time, and I fielded 3 units in most tournaments. But I can freely admit they were just a dice roll, I could run through their movement and shooting in second.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Of course drama comes from the dice. No one is suggesting otherwise. Standard deviations are something to take into consideration, and I do.
The issue is this is a 5-7 turn game. The Riptide will have roughly 3-4 wounds most of the time. Can you do enough damage to remove it quick enough before it does what it needs to?
Part of the problem it is an MC. It's at full effectiveness until it dies, unlike a tank which can have parts blown off by incoming fire.
The answer for any dex that isn't a power dex is "Not without investing double or triple the points, and losing them next turn".
Just to show you some math,
72 bolters fire - 48 hit - 8 wound - 1.4 wounds - 1 wound. This is the equivalent of 36 marines rapid firing, so about 4 squads minus their special weapon.
8 plasma fire - 6 hit (round up) - 4 wound - either 2.67 wounds or 1.3 wound - 1.7 wounds or 0.9 wounds on average, for their plasma guns.
So 4 full squads of marine take roughly 2-3 wounds off of a riptide, and you must be within rapid fire range for 4 full squads.
That's nuts.
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Even at 3.75 W, let's say, it takes an absurd amount of long range firepower to kill one of these things. You can't assault them, because you can't catch them. You can't use short range guns because they will stay out of your range.
Look you are basically going to KEEP 3 wounds and the Nova Reactor is going to take 2 most of the time. Again, unless you refuse to use the Reactor (usually, and ironically, because you already took 2! Lol)
You can pincer them, and boards aren't unlimited inches deep.
Like all expensive singular models, if you allow it to do whatever its designed to do, yeah. It's going to whallop you but good.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Where?
I have honestly missed where you describe why the unit you alone feel is overpowered is. I've never seen the unit played, and if there is a hidden treasure there, I'd like to see it. I have failed to see you detail why the dreadknight is superior, or indeed, any MC in the game is superior to the Riptide.
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
That isn't really a strategy. We can discuss standard deviation if you want, so we can determine just how accurate those averages are, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying "luck should be enough" isn't a viable strategy.
And yes, most shooting units with an incredibly long range don't require a great amount of work to use. If the guns are strong, the unit fast, and it is very tough, then its very easy to use. You may not like it, but there is no Riptide tactica or strategy that involves more than
"Do not deploy like an idiot. Place toe in area terrain. Pick unit. Delete Unit. Run if something approaches" Compare that to something like the Dreadknight, and it comes out very braindead to use indeed.
That said, I've used brain dead units before. Longfangs in the old SW dex were the most braindead unit in the game at the time, and I fielded 3 units in most tournaments. But I can freely admit they were just a dice roll, I could run through their movement and shooting in second.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Of course drama comes from the dice. No one is suggesting otherwise. Standard deviations are something to take into consideration, and I do.
The issue is this is a 5-7 turn game. The Riptide will have roughly 3-4 wounds most of the time. Can you do enough damage to remove it quick enough before it does what it needs to?
Part of the problem it is an MC. It's at full effectiveness until it dies, unlike a tank which can have parts blown off by incoming fire.
The answer for any dex that isn't a power dex is "Not without investing double or triple the points, and losing them next turn".
Just to show you some math,
72 bolters fire - 48 hit - 8 wound - 1.4 wounds - 1 wound. This is the equivalent of 36 marines rapid firing, so about 4 squads minus their special weapon.
8 plasma fire - 6 hit (round up) - 4 wound - either 2.67 wounds or 1.3 wound - 1.7 wounds or 0.9 wounds on average, for their plasma guns.
So 4 full squads of marine take roughly 2-3 wounds off of a riptide, and you must be within rapid fire range for 4 full squads.
That's nuts.
For me to answer your questions, here's what has to be true: you have to be right that "I alone say" anything. Because if "I alone" don't, you have no question for me to answer. So if you want to argue in good faith, do it. Otherwise... eh...Expect little in answer.
And what I ACTUALLY said had nothing to do with superiority. You weren't paying attention to what I DID say which was...that.... there will always be a ...top five. bemoaning WHAT that is is a pointless exercise. So it hardly matters whether there IS an MC thats superior to it but since you wish to ask, I find a Flying Nurgle MC with his awesome weapons to be not only better but quite likely to kick a Riptides teeth in along with a few other fellas nearby. i think he is harder to hit and with shrouded, as hard to wound, faster and FAR more dangerous in melee. So yeah. Thats one. There are more. And like every unit if you find a way to stop him from getting there then bravo. Tzeentch FMC armies are ridiculously effective when someone knows how to range band with them. Noneof it means a darn thing. its just another tangent for you to argue. but there you go.
And if I HAD thrown my hands up and HAD said "luck is enough" you'd have a point. but since I didn't, you don't. Putting a toe in cover no longer works, smart guy, so you might want to update yourself on that point. Area Terrain no longer exists, Just an FYI.
When you knowwhat you REALLY want to ask...really specifically... then I'll be happy to provide you an answer.
But we're talking about win ratios in the thread. and my point which you've thrown us on a tangent over, is that we can't know what these Generals would be like or would do if they had chosen a road less traveled. So the percentages lack enough meaning, for all the reasons I stated.
start a new thread if you want to talk about Heavy Weapons Platforms in that much depth.
Oh yeah and WHY are you shooting a Riptide with Bolters? that math makes no sense unless my plan is to uh...do that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 23:51:42
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Where?
I have honestly missed where you describe why the unit you alone feel is overpowered is. I've never seen the unit played, and if there is a hidden treasure there, I'd like to see it. I have failed to see you detail why the dreadknight is superior, or indeed, any MC in the game is superior to the Riptide.
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
That isn't really a strategy. We can discuss standard deviation if you want, so we can determine just how accurate those averages are, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying "luck should be enough" isn't a viable strategy.
And yes, most shooting units with an incredibly long range don't require a great amount of work to use. If the guns are strong, the unit fast, and it is very tough, then its very easy to use. You may not like it, but there is no Riptide tactica or strategy that involves more than
"Do not deploy like an idiot. Place toe in area terrain. Pick unit. Delete Unit. Run if something approaches" Compare that to something like the Dreadknight, and it comes out very braindead to use indeed.
That said, I've used brain dead units before. Longfangs in the old SW dex were the most braindead unit in the game at the time, and I fielded 3 units in most tournaments. But I can freely admit they were just a dice roll, I could run through their movement and shooting in second.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Of course drama comes from the dice. No one is suggesting otherwise. Standard deviations are something to take into consideration, and I do.
The issue is this is a 5-7 turn game. The Riptide will have roughly 3-4 wounds most of the time. Can you do enough damage to remove it quick enough before it does what it needs to?
Part of the problem it is an MC. It's at full effectiveness until it dies, unlike a tank which can have parts blown off by incoming fire.
The answer for any dex that isn't a power dex is "Not without investing double or triple the points, and losing them next turn".
Just to show you some math,
72 bolters fire - 48 hit - 8 wound - 1.4 wounds - 1 wound. This is the equivalent of 36 marines rapid firing, so about 4 squads minus their special weapon.
8 plasma fire - 6 hit (round up) - 4 wound - either 2.67 wounds or 1.3 wound - 1.7 wounds or 0.9 wounds on average, for their plasma guns.
So 4 full squads of marine take roughly 2-3 wounds off of a riptide, and you must be within rapid fire range for 4 full squads.
That's nuts.
For me to answer your questions, here's what has to be true: you have to be right that "I alone say" anything. Because if "I alone" don't, you have no question for me to answer. So if you want to argue in good faith, do it. Otherwise... eh...Expect little in answer.
I...what?
What are you even saying here?
You claimed a unit was strong that many think are weak. You even compared yourself to galileo!
I am asking you to back up that claim, as I'd like to hear why you think it's too strong. No one else in the thread backed you up, so yes, it is you alone. I am addressing your points one by one and trying to reply to each one without insulting you (which you have done, btw).
And what I ACTUALLY said had nothing to do with superiority. You weren't paying attention to what I DID say which was...that.... there will always be a ...top five. bemoaning WHAT that is is a pointless exercise. So it hardly matters whether there IS an MC thats superior to it but since you wish to ask, I find a Flying Nurgle MC with his awesome weapons to be not only better but quite likely to kick a Riptides teeth in along with a few other fellas nearby. i think he is harder to hit and with shrouded, as hard to wound, faster and FAR more dangerous in melee. So yeah. Thats one. There are more. And like every unit if you find a way to stop him from getting there then bravo. Tzeentch FMC armies are ridiculously effective when someone knows how to range band with them. Noneof it means a darn thing. its just another tangent for you to argue. but there you go.
Everything is relative. Yes, there will always be a top 5. But how far above the rest of the game do those top 5 stand? How far from each other do they stand? These things matter.
The flying Nurgle MC has the same problem the Dreadknight has; he needs to touch you. He used to be quite scary, but now he doesn't make the list for Top 3 MCs (I'd argue top 5).
I'd say the Top 5 are, in order;
Riptide
Hive Tyrant
DreadKnight
WraithKnight
Tzneetch Greater Demon
Guns>Melee for the most part, though necrons are changing things.
Also, if you don't like arguing or debate, forums where people may disagree isn't the place for you. I suggest a less stressful leisure activity.
And if I HAD thrown my hands up and HAD said "luck is enough" you'd have a point. but since I didn't, you don't. Putting a toe in cover no longer works, smart guy, so you might want to update yourself on that point. Area Terrain no longer exists, Just an FYI.
Putting a toe in cover for area terrain is a turn of phrase. You barely need any of the model in cover to gain it, so it's easy to do. Perhaps you're not aware of this strategy or ability?
You have said several times that it is people's attitude that determines how things work. There is another thread where you claimed a blob of IG can stop wraiths currently, because it CAN happen. In this thread alone, you have mentioned that swings in dice cause drama. What else where you talking about besides luck?
When you knowwhat you REALLY want to ask...really specifically... then I'll be happy to provide you an answer.
I want you to back up what you're saying.
I want you to explain how night lords with rhinos stop a unit from being shot to death after winning assault.
I want you to explain why the riptide being so overpowered isn't bad for the game.
I want you to explain how riptides should be handled by some of the more average dexes, or admit that it's an overpowered unit that is bad for the game.
I want you to amaze me with your Galileo esque insight into the strategy of this game, since you have claimed to have it.
But we're talking about win ratios in the thread. and my point which you've thrown us on a tangent over, is that we can't know what these Generals would be like or would do if they had chosen a road less traveled. So the percentages lack enough meaning, for all the reasons I stated.
No one is disagreeing here. I said from the start that the statistics were useless, as most are for 40k. It isn't a competitive game like WMH, so there isn't a lot of data available on it.
And you are sadly mistaken if you think I originally brought up riptides originally. Please re-read the thread.
start a new thread if you want to talk about Heavy Weapons Platforms in that much depth.
The conversation has turned from that for pages, and you were happy to post for several of them on the new topic. If you no longer wish to do so, by all means.
Oh yeah and WHY are you shooting a Riptide with Bolters? that math makes no sense unless my plan is to uh...do that?
It was an example, since one of the common answers to a riptide is "deep strike it". I wanted to show what exactly deepstriking it entails with a unit that is considered to be poor to average, and how serious a point advantage it has.
It took more then double the points and an unrealistic set up to score enough wounds to kill it providing it had already hurt itself. That was my point.
You have yet to provide anyone with a gameplan for riptides except be positive.
Jancoran wrote: First, Akiasura, Ive done more than that. You just didn't like the answer (not that I care).
Where?
I have honestly missed where you describe why the unit you alone feel is overpowered is. I've never seen the unit played, and if there is a hidden treasure there, I'd like to see it. I have failed to see you detail why the dreadknight is superior, or indeed, any MC in the game is superior to the Riptide.
Second, I play two of these "brain dead' units as you call them, and the wounds mount up. If you're lucky enough NOT to take a couple wounds from it, awesome. Good day for you.
That isn't really a strategy. We can discuss standard deviation if you want, so we can determine just how accurate those averages are, but throwing your hands up in the air and saying "luck should be enough" isn't a viable strategy.
And yes, most shooting units with an incredibly long range don't require a great amount of work to use. If the guns are strong, the unit fast, and it is very tough, then its very easy to use. You may not like it, but there is no Riptide tactica or strategy that involves more than
"Do not deploy like an idiot. Place toe in area terrain. Pick unit. Delete Unit. Run if something approaches" Compare that to something like the Dreadknight, and it comes out very braindead to use indeed.
That said, I've used brain dead units before. Longfangs in the old SW dex were the most braindead unit in the game at the time, and I fielded 3 units in most tournaments. But I can freely admit they were just a dice roll, I could run through their movement and shooting in second.
But it's a dice game and the drama comes FROM the dice so no matter your statistics, bad things happen and good things do too. but its fairly intuitive for anyone to recognize that you will take wounds. So a 5 wound MC is not REALLY a 5 wound MC if played to its strengths. And I do.
Of course drama comes from the dice. No one is suggesting otherwise. Standard deviations are something to take into consideration, and I do.
The issue is this is a 5-7 turn game. The Riptide will have roughly 3-4 wounds most of the time. Can you do enough damage to remove it quick enough before it does what it needs to?
Part of the problem it is an MC. It's at full effectiveness until it dies, unlike a tank which can have parts blown off by incoming fire.
The answer for any dex that isn't a power dex is "Not without investing double or triple the points, and losing them next turn".
Just to show you some math,
72 bolters fire - 48 hit - 8 wound - 1.4 wounds - 1 wound. This is the equivalent of 36 marines rapid firing, so about 4 squads minus their special weapon.
8 plasma fire - 6 hit (round up) - 4 wound - either 2.67 wounds or 1.3 wound - 1.7 wounds or 0.9 wounds on average, for their plasma guns.
So 4 full squads of marine take roughly 2-3 wounds off of a riptide, and you must be within rapid fire range for 4 full squads.
That's nuts.
For me to answer your questions, here's what has to be true: you have to be right that "I alone say" anything. Because if "I alone" don't, you have no question for me to answer. So if you want to argue in good faith, do it. Otherwise... eh...Expect little in answer.
I...what?
What are you even saying here?
You claimed a unit was strong that many think are weak. You even compared yourself to galileo!
I am asking you to back up that claim, as I'd like to hear why you think it's too strong. No one else in the thread backed you up, so yes, it is you alone. I am addressing your points one by one and trying to reply to each one without insulting you (which you have done, btw).
And what I ACTUALLY said had nothing to do with superiority. You weren't paying attention to what I DID say which was...that.... there will always be a ...top five. bemoaning WHAT that is is a pointless exercise. So it hardly matters whether there IS an MC thats superior to it but since you wish to ask, I find a Flying Nurgle MC with his awesome weapons to be not only better but quite likely to kick a Riptides teeth in along with a few other fellas nearby. i think he is harder to hit and with shrouded, as hard to wound, faster and FAR more dangerous in melee. So yeah. Thats one. There are more. And like every unit if you find a way to stop him from getting there then bravo. Tzeentch FMC armies are ridiculously effective when someone knows how to range band with them. Noneof it means a darn thing. its just another tangent for you to argue. but there you go.
Everything is relative. Yes, there will always be a top 5. But how far above the rest of the game do those top 5 stand? How far from each other do they stand? These things matter.
The flying Nurgle MC has the same problem the Dreadknight has; he needs to touch you. He used to be quite scary, but now he doesn't make the list for Top 3 MCs (I'd argue top 5).
I'd say the Top 5 are, in order;
Riptide
Hive Tyrant
DreadKnight
WraithKnight
Tzneetch Greater Demon
Guns>Melee for the most part, though necrons are changing things.
Also, if you don't like arguing or debate, forums where people may disagree isn't the place for you. I suggest a less stressful leisure activity.
And if I HAD thrown my hands up and HAD said "luck is enough" you'd have a point. but since I didn't, you don't. Putting a toe in cover no longer works, smart guy, so you might want to update yourself on that point. Area Terrain no longer exists, Just an FYI.
Putting a toe in cover for area terrain is a turn of phrase. You barely need any of the model in cover to gain it, so it's easy to do. Perhaps you're not aware of this strategy or ability?
You have said several times that it is people's attitude that determines how things work. There is another thread where you claimed a blob of IG can stop wraiths currently, because it CAN happen. In this thread alone, you have mentioned that swings in dice cause drama. What else where you talking about besides luck?
When you knowwhat you REALLY want to ask...really specifically... then I'll be happy to provide you an answer.
I want you to back up what you're saying.
I want you to explain how night lords with rhinos stop a unit from being shot to death after winning assault.
I want you to explain why the riptide being so overpowered isn't bad for the game.
I want you to explain how riptides should be handled by some of the more average dexes, or admit that it's an overpowered unit that is bad for the game.
I want you to amaze me with your Galileo esque insight into the strategy of this game, since you have claimed to have it.
But we're talking about win ratios in the thread. and my point which you've thrown us on a tangent over, is that we can't know what these Generals would be like or would do if they had chosen a road less traveled. So the percentages lack enough meaning, for all the reasons I stated.
No one is disagreeing here. I said from the start that the statistics were useless, as most are for 40k. It isn't a competitive game like WMH, so there isn't a lot of data available on it.
And you are sadly mistaken if you think I originally brought up riptides originally. Please re-read the thread.
start a new thread if you want to talk about Heavy Weapons Platforms in that much depth.
The conversation has turned from that for pages, and you were happy to post for several of them on the new topic. If you no longer wish to do so, by all means.
Oh yeah and WHY are you shooting a Riptide with Bolters? that math makes no sense unless my plan is to uh...do that?
It was an example, since one of the common answers to a riptide is "deep strike it". I wanted to show what exactly deepstriking it entails with a unit that is considered to be poor to average, and how serious a point advantage it has.
It took more then double the points and an unrealistic set up to score enough wounds to kill it providing it had already hurt itself. That was my point.
You have yet to provide anyone with a gameplan for riptides except be positive.
Aki, Janc has obviously gone insane trying to defined the Riptide against the hate. It's okay
The flying Nurgle MC has the same problem the Dreadknight has; he needs to touch you. He used to be quite scary, but now he doesn't make the list for Top 3 MCs (I'd argue top 5).
I'd say the Top 5 are, in order;
Riptide
Hive Tyrant
DreadKnight
WraithKnight
Tzneetch Greater Demon
Guns>Melee for the most part, though necrons are changing things.
What? No Bel'akor?
My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100%
The flying Nurgle MC has the same problem the Dreadknight has; he needs to touch you. He used to be quite scary, but now he doesn't make the list for Top 3 MCs (I'd argue top 5).
I'd say the Top 5 are, in order;
Riptide
Hive Tyrant
DreadKnight
WraithKnight
Tzneetch Greater Demon
Guns>Melee for the most part, though necrons are changing things.
What? No Bel'akor?
Yeah, I think Bel'akor should bump out Tzeentch GD
The only thing that really give Bel'akor the edge over a tooled up LoC is the predictability. That -1 T can really hurt when it comes to being focussed down.
It's near impossible to give a fair comparison because even the person fielding it doesn't know how good a LoC is going to be until just before the game starts!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I play in a Serpent heavy environment, for me he essentially just has a 4++ 70% of the time.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I strongly suspect 'lots of Waveserpernts' isn't unique to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 03:47:16
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I'm assuming the Flyrant, otherwise the regular Hive Tyrant seems laughable
Of course, just like the Riptide is the IA one as the HBC is also awful. I'm not 100% sure on the best Wraithknight build and the Dreadknight... Is any build with two guns and their cheesy jet pack thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 16:20:33
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
~1.5k
