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 Keep wrote:

The 4 of them are pretty special though, dont you think? They are the highest ranks, apart from horus, in their legion. They are not the average marine from their skills, and strength. So its not unlikely that their size is exceptional as well...

You know, for a second I wanted to say, "Hey, they aren't Orks- they don't promote based on height, to they?"

Then I remembered all of the special characters I've painted over the years. It seems like most races DO often promote based on size.

The Ork fluff is probably meant as satire of the whole thing (like when ork scale creep was canonized).

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Abaddon was a special case and there is no evidence of his height being linked to his status as being a Son.

Unless he as a child suffered from giantism, I would generally put the blame of becoming a giant among giants on the genetic engineering he underwent that hijacked his puberty.

You misunderstand.

It's obvious that he is large because of his Marine status, but it has nothing to do with him being a Son of Horus (That is, the Luna Wolf name for those who looked a lot like their Primarch facially).

 odinsgrandson wrote:


I find it funny that the Movie Marines put them at 7' tall, because the stated purpose behind those rules was to create a rules set that represented the Black Library books.

No, its meant to represent what would happen if SM were the protagonist of a silly action movie, nothing more.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:


I find it funny that the Movie Marines put them at 7' tall, because the stated purpose behind those rules was to create a rules set that represented the Black Library books.

No, its meant to represent what would happen if SM were the protagonist of a silly action movie, nothing more.

The article goes like this:

We get at lot of letters from people who read our fluff and say "A space marine is super powerful in the fiction. Why doesn't your game represent them properly?"

Well, there's game balance to consider. But we think that exaggeration is fun, and we think that fiction is a good place for that sort of thing- heck, Hollywood has been doing it for years.

So, we imagine our books are like films shown in the Imperium. So here are the rules to represent space marines this way.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So, we imagine our books are like films shown in the Imperium.

This is canon saying that Space Marines performance in BL books are over-the-top, and that actual marines are to BL marines what Expendable soldiers are to real U.S. soldiers! Interesting.

Also, Ashiraya, were you not explaining to me a few days ago that a 7" marine was an outlier? That is was on the same level as you interpretating bad prose into saying a marine run faster than the speed of sound? Ah !

This still argued to this day.

I will weigh in and say it varies chapter to chapter and marine to marine.

IN terms of how tall marines are. They are usually 7 foot tall.

But considering how each author has a different picture of a space marine. It is hard to pinpint.

(Also inb4 there is no canon)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So, we imagine our books are like films shown in the Imperium.

This is canon saying that Space Marines performance in BL books are over-the-top, and that actual marines are to BL marines what Expendable soldiers are to real U.S. soldiers! Interesting.

Also, Ashiraya, were you not explaining to me a few days ago that a 7" marine was an outlier? That is was on the same level as you interpretating bad prose into saying a marine run faster than the speed of sound? Ah !

Well, the article had a massive "CHAPTER UNAPPROVED" stamp on it, so...

Marines are 7.5 - 9 feet tall. They have .75 cal assault rifles with explosive rounds - their punch is as deadly as their .75 cal rifle. I've read these accounts from so many different sources it would be hard to site it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Marines are 7.5 - 9 feet tall. They have .75 cal assault rifles with explosive rounds - their punch is as deadly as their .75 cal rifle. I've read these accounts from so many different sources it would be hard to site it.

Can you find any of those sources? I'd love to add them to the list.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So, we imagine our books are like films shown in the Imperium.

This is canon saying that Space Marines performance in BL books are over-the-top, and that actual marines are to BL marines what Expendable soldiers are to real U.S. soldiers! Interesting.

Also, Ashiraya, were you not explaining to me a few days ago that a 7" marine was an outlier? That is was on the same level as you interpretating bad prose into saying a marine run faster than the speed of sound? Ah !

In my opinion, yes!


Btw, I am pretty sure I read that the Night Lords in ADB's books are 3 meters (9'10"). That is another page I shall have to look up for you, Odin.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well, you can always bring a meltagun. You don't need a door when you can just slag the wall down.

If a doorway happens to be concrete you have bad luck... because concrete doesnt burn... And if its a reinforced doorway of a fortification they wont be able to smash through it, nor will they be able to blow a big hole in it, unless they use a gigantic explosive load

Btw, I am pretty sure I read that the Night Lords in ADB's books are 3 meters (9'10"). That is another page I shall have to look up for you, Odin.

With bat wings and horns or without it ?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
You know, for a second I wanted to say, "Hey, they aren't Orks- they don't promote based on height, to they?"

As far as logic is concerned, no it is absolutely not necessary. But apparently writers/ designers think that it is what it takes to satisfy the needs of bolterporn enthusiasts. Because many of them leaders are indeed way larger. The bigger the more badass, so they think. That's why 9' "enhanced human soldiers" are a thing in peoples minds. Not because it gives definite battlefield advantages. No, because it looks more "heroic" and "awesome". I find that silly and one dimensional.

i guess "growing along with your tasks" is a literal thing in 40k ? In 40k, your progress to great warrior status can be measured with a ruler.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In my opinion, yes!

You have a very… personal definition of what an outlier is .

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Keep wrote:

"If you have the technology to create a giant combat robot, you can spend fewer resources to create a tank that is better than your giant robot."

What magic technology do you need to create a combat walker (they are crewed, not AI controlled)? Other then good energy supply it only requires a controll pattern that can keeps it stable and thats it. Once solved there is no additional prerequisite that is not already available. Bipedal walking has advantages and dissadvantages over tracks. Advantages are it doesnt care so much about terrain obstacles. There's always 2 sides to a coin, tracks do not make walkers obsolete, same as tracks didnt make wheels obsolete.

Unfortunately, this is not true.

The advantage of terrain becomes a lot less relevant when you are operating on a Titan scale, and even when you are not the drawbacks of a walker are significant - loss of a stability and thus can carry less armour and weaponry, a hit to a leg can topple and thus make a walker useless whereas a hit to a tread will just immobilise a tank, the walker is a lot harder to repair, a higher profile makes it far easier to hit for its mass... Hell, wheeled and tracked vehicles are also faster.

Something to consider, titans are made for siege warfare or protection of cities - as I see it; there is a huge advantage they have that you have failed to mention in regard to this: Height. Assaulting positions at higher elevation within a city, grants some major advantages in terms of firing solutions. Even outside of hive cities, there are firing angles that ground level tanks and artillery are going to be having issues hitting that a titan could target.

Also, regarding titans having treads, in an urban environment its going to have issues either getting stuck or simply unable to navigate around spires/buildings and streets.

Heck, now that I think of it, having huge scale bipedal meat shields in open field engagements (that are emitting void fields that mitigate damage) would be advantageous. Essentially such a tall thing would obstruct a lot of damage to things behind the titan, plus, the freaking void fields regenerate! In a large scale situation, where fortitude is key, this would be handy. I could probably come up with more reasons as to why a tall, bipedal walker could work.

As a tangent, I am one of those who would argue that warlords are ~100 stories tall; I think its fitting that the 41st millenia should have something so mind boggling titanic.... and them called titans. It should be as tall as the empire statebuilding because.... that's titanic - in my mind. I own a titan, granted a warhound, but at least I admit it isn't the scale it should be rather than shrinking everyone elses ideas of titans to justify my $$$ spent on it




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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So, we imagine our books are like films shown in the Imperium.

This is canon saying that Space Marines performance in BL books are over-the-top, and that actual marines are to BL marines what Expendable soldiers are to real U.S. soldiers! Interesting.

Also, Ashiraya, were you not explaining to me a few days ago that a 7" marine was an outlier? That is was on the same level as you interpretating bad prose into saying a marine run faster than the speed of sound? Ah !

Meh. The crowd that waves off SM fiction as just exaggerative propaganda are usually warhammer players that like their version of warhammer, than what its in canon. You know, that's okay if you want to believe that but think about this:

You (being a veteran SM recruiter... which is an astronomically improbable feat - that you will come to find out later) are charged to go find a few dudes from a pool of a thousand, who need to sleep for a few decades in a very expensive medical thing (with expensive apothecary medicine/services over these years)..... to find out if expensive implants have taken or not. Then they must be trained (probably expensively - cost of warp gas etc) as a scout, before they can wear very expensive armour, with very expensive weapons, expensive ammo, expensive wax for the expensive flame proof litany paper and .... expensive everything..... on an expensive spaceship with other ... yep.... expensive things. There are some things money can't buy, for everything else, there's Astartes Mastercard....

Now lets think about 40k tabletop and how the above is portrayed.... take a run of the mill lasgun or pea shooter, that needs a 33% chance to wound, and the SM has a 66% chance to save against it...... one shot from this weapon has a ~ 21% chance of killing a space marine.
So, this begs the most obvious question: why even bother fielding space marines in the imperium if there is that level of impractical replenishment. Propaganda? That's beyond that, and in the realm of mentally handicapped.

5 Peons that took 8 weeks to train (if that) have over a 100% chance to kill a space marine - if they hit. Assuming averages to hit (so I can be a bit unbiased here), it would take ~10 guard to kill a space marine in one turn. Then if they don't kill him in one turn, even attacking back, then his subsequent rounds survival rate is still crap. Oh sure, one could say, that realistically you would have a squad of marines, with support meh meh blah bleh blah. You're right. We are talking about ratios in the lore though..... where Mr. point value should probably hang out.

BL SM lore is at least consistent. GW on the other hand has had lore consistency issues with SMs since rogue trader.

 Keep wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well, you can always bring a meltagun. You don't need a door when you can just slag the wall down.

If a doorway happens to be concrete you have bad luck... because concrete doesnt burn... And if its a reinforced doorway of a fortification they wont be able to smash through it, nor will they be able to blow a big hole in it, unless they use a gigantic explosive load

Btw, I am pretty sure I read that the Night Lords in ADB's books are 3 meters (9'10"). That is another page I shall have to look up for you, Odin.

With bat wings and horns or without it ?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
You know, for a second I wanted to say, "Hey, they aren't Orks- they don't promote based on height, to they?"

As far as logic is concerned, no it is absolutely not necessary. But apparently writers/ designers think that it is what it takes to satisfy the needs of bolterporn enthusiasts. Because many of them leaders are indeed way larger. The bigger the more badass, so they think. That's why 9' "enhanced human soldiers" are a thing in peoples minds. Not because it gives definite battlefield advantages. No, because it looks more "heroic" and "awesome". I find that silly and one dimensional.

i guess "growing along with your tasks" is a literal thing in 40k ? In 40k, your progress to great warrior status can be measured with a ruler.

It doesn't matter if concrete doesn't burn. Twenty million degrees Fahrenheit doesn't discriminate the material, it all gets vaporized.

Power armor, concrete walls, tanks, safes, Inquisitors, it doesn't matter. If you shoot a meltagun at it, it ceases to be.

Unless you're Huron. He tanked a melta shot in IA - what wounded him so badly was not the shot, but rather the fact that his archeotech Lightning Claw, the Ghost Razors, exploded on his hand. Ow.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Unless you're Huron. He tanked a melta shot in IA - what wounded him so badly was not the shot, but rather the fact that his archeotech Lightning Claw, the Ghost Razors, exploded on his hand. Ow.

He "tanked" a shot in that the majority of his torso was vaporized by a glancing melta shot that now requires constant treatment by a large team of Apothecaries 24/7 even after his biometrics were installed, and is surviving on pure will.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Unless you're Huron. He tanked a melta shot in IA - what wounded him so badly was not the shot, but rather the fact that his archeotech Lightning Claw, the Ghost Razors, exploded on his hand. Ow.

He "tanked" a shot in that the majority of his torso was vaporized by a glancing melta shot that now requires constant treatment by a large team of Apothecaries 24/7 even after his biometrics were installed, and is surviving on pure will.

No. A common misconception.

Have you read the IA in question? The melta shot did not do the damage. The Ghost Razors explosion did.

But then, the melta shot in question was a near miss, which might be related. x)

It doesn't matter if concrete doesn't burn. Twenty million degrees Fahrenheit doesn't discriminate the material, it all gets vaporized.

That doesn't work. Heat expands in all directions, not just one. That means the shooter would also be vaporized by your gazillions of degrees of heat.
Also, you don't vaporize a big block of granite or concrete by putting a fraction of a second of extreme high temperature on its surface.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Well, you can always bring a meltagun. You don't need a door when you can just slag the wall down.

So if a group of space marines enters a large underground bunker with 20 doorways, then the guy armed with a meltagun has to fire said valuable gun twenty times or so before they can proceed any further into the structure?

That seems like poor efficiency to me, and very time-consuming too for that matter.

Why are you sending your Space Marines into a large underground bunker?

Because it'a filled with demons?

Or it's a space hulk.

In the former case, you'd probably rather want to drop some melta warheads on that bunker.

Why are you entering a space hulk?

Why would a bunker or space hulk be a hindrance to 9 foot marines? 7-8 foot marines seem to move around in them well enough to do their jobs even in terminator armour, so why is 9 feet somehow completely ridiculous? Ork Nobs are even bigger than marines and more numerous as well, nobody really complains about their size being unrealistic.

That is a very good point. Nobs and Warriors are considerably larger than Space Marines and get around just fine. Especially the former - I have never seen a case of a Nob being shut out from entering something Boyz can.

kveldulf wrote:
You know, that's okay if you want to believe that but think about this:

You (being a veteran SM recruiter... which is an astronomically improbable feat - that you will come to find out later) are charged to go find a few dudes from a pool of a thousand, who need to sleep for a few decades in a very expensive medical thing (with expensive apothecary medicine/services over these years)..... to find out if expensive implants have taken or not. Then they must be trained (probably expensively - cost of warp gas etc) as a scout, before they can wear very expensive armour, with very expensive weapons, expensive ammo, expensive wax for the expensive flame proof litany paper and .... expensive everything..... on an expensive spaceship with other ... yep.... expensive things. There are some things money can't buy, for everything else, there's Astartes Mastercard....

Now lets think about 40k tabletop and how the above is portrayed.... take a run of the mill lasgun or pea shooter, that needs a 33% chance to wound, and the SM has a 66% chance to save against it...... one shot from this weapon has a ~ 21% chance of killing a space marine.
So, this begs the most obvious question: why even bother fielding space marines in the imperium if there is that level of impractical replenishment.

Have you seen what army I play? The armed branch of the most wasteful organization of the Imperium. How much is it going to cost to build a many kilometers high statue of an imperial saint? A lot. How much is it going to bring? Nothing.
At least the marine has it uses.

kveldulf wrote:
Peons that took 8 weeks to train (if that) […]10 guard

No. Guards are not peons. PDF are usually considered peons. Guards are bad-ass. Some regiment, for instance, are famous for fighting orks in the jungle, favoring close-combat. Yeah. Close combat. Againsts orks. In the jungle. And they scalp the orks. And they collect the skulls. How is that for being a peon?
Also do not forget that dead on the tabletop does not mean dead, just at least incapacitated.

kveldulf wrote:
BL SM lore is at least consistent.

.
Happy to know that Ciaphas Cain being way better at close combat than Khorne berserkers, and 10 Khorne berserkers being beaten by a bunch of civilians Slaaneshi cultists is consistent with the portrayal of marines in the rest of BL's stories.
Also, back-flipping terminators.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why are you entering a space hulk?

Because you want to fight the genestealers inside! Because it makes for a cool game.

 Bobthehero wrote:


Even the Movie Marines are described as 7'

I recognize that picture from White Dwarf 300, which came out in 2005.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why are you sending your Space Marines into a large underground bunker?

To go after the enemy’s HQ, obviously. Common sense dictates that you place your centers of command in places where they are hard to locate and reach, preferably somewhere deep below the ground where they’re shielded from bombardment: ergo an underground bunker.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In the former case, you'd probably rather want to drop some melta warheads on that bunker.

Why are you entering a space hulk?

To collect valuable DAoT tech, to procure a priceless artifact, ect.


I should clarify, that I think even 8' marines would have trouble. 9' is about the maximum I will believe. Anything larger than that is so large as to be pointlessly large, with many downsides. I'v always imagined space marine height to generally be between 7' and 7'6". Still pretty damn big, but small enough to generally operate effectively in human-sized spaces.Not only that, it makes them a smaller target than 9'ers.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why are you sending your Space Marines into a large underground bunker?

To go after the enemy’s HQ, obviously. Common sense dictates that you place your centers of command in places where they are hard to locate and reach, preferably somewhere deep below the ground where they’re shielded from bombardment: ergo an underground bunker.

They would have to be veeeeeery deep underground to resist melta warheads, though.

You know, sometime you might not want to kill everybody. There may be important hostages, plans that will allow you to defeat the enemy, any number of things.