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A guy in my gaming group has gone over the new Necron codex and is preaching to everyone that the end is nigh because Wraith spam will be the new thing everyone does and more than one squad of Wraiths is going to dominate the 40k scene for the foreseeable future. Now, do I think Wraiths are tough? Yeah and for their points they are a steal but I don't think they are anymore to deal with than anything else that has been overpowered and I do think that they are able to dealt with. He is a Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marine player so I am not intimately familiar with his armies to give him tactical advice on what he can take. I am a Grey Knight, Imperial Fist and Imperial Knight player so when he brought this up, I immediately started thinking of ways to counter Wraith spam.

I looked at the Canoptek Harvest formation that they can come in which would give themselves Reanimation Protocols but I am just not that afraid of it. Adaptive Subroutines is good but it still doesn't have me shaking in my boots and between all the stuff I can bring, I really feel that I would be able to deal with this. I just wanted to know how everyone else was reacting to this. I think Wraiths are a good unit and the formation decent to take but I don't see it as an end all be all sweeping tournaments and gaming groups across the nation. Thoughts?

There is already a thread dedicated to this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633319.page

While they're durable, why people say that wraiths are some kind of death machine that kills everything baffles me. They have about the same damage output against MEQ on the charge as three assault marines. Actually less since they don't have hammer of wrath. Wow.

 docdoom77 wrote:
There is already a thread dedicated to this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633319.page

I see, I thought it might and I must of missed this in my brief skim of the tactics forum. I keep forgetting that there is a search button. Thanks for pointing it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
While they're durable, why people say that wraiths are some kind of death machine that kills everything baffles me. They have about the same damage output against MEQ on the charge as three assault marines. Actually less since they don't have hammer of wrath. Wow.

I am glad I am not the only one who doesn't see this as a big deal.

Personally, i think that newcrons will murderise GK like no big deal. Not due to wraiths but due to their extreme durability. GK rely on an alpha-strike with dreadknights and GK termies but Newcrons have an ability to make themselves almost immune to damage on demand. So, your alpha-strike won't kill nearly enough to make it matter.

If you mathhammer a fight between gktermies/dreadknights and wraiths, you'll find out that wraiths are more point efficient in mellee but that's not your main problem imo. The problem is the rest of his army. While wraiths will be able to reliably tarpit and eventually kill wraithknights, warriors/immortals/tombblades will shoot termies getting neglectable ranged return damage due to buffed RP.

Anyone who focuses on Wraiths killing potential is missing the point. They aren't a pain in the ass because of their damage, they're a pain in the ass because of their insane durability and speed. A necron player with wraiths gets to basically say, at the start of turn two: "whatever your best/strongest/most expensive unit(s) are... I'm taking those away from you now." And there's really nothing you can do to stop them sans focusing 75% of your entire army on trying to take them out.

Some armies are naturally not too bothered by this- Orks for example don't give a gak if a couple boyz squads get hung up by Wraiths. Dark Eldar raider/venom spam and other mech spam lists won't care either. All the armies that rely on death stars and "set-piece" units like Riptides, Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and Ceturions are in a heap of trouble though, as that super tough unit or combination of units that your list revolves around will be taken out of the game by turn 2 unless you hide them in reserves all game.

BlaxicanX hit the nail on the head. They aren't super dangerous due to their damage output, it is the fact that they can move so well and take a pounding and STILL keep going that makes them scary. The Canoptek formation is damn near broken, overpowered at the very least. It almost seems like it was made in response to Tide/Wave/Cent Spam, but there isn't a very effective counter outside tarpitting and DE. My Crimson Fists list and my Blood Angel's are going to have to dedicate some hefty firepower to bringing down that stupid spider, all with the high probability of it getting right back up.

Still, as annoying as they are going to be to deal with, they aren't impossible. They aren't overpowered unless they are in the Canoptek formation because they won't have RP. And if they are in the Canoptek formation, there are some chaf models that must be used. It just looks like my Here's Contemptor Mortis is going to be firing his assault cannons a lot.

I've been thinking of taking an eversor as a can of raid. It should be able to take out the spider with 4 (4+) shots then 7 (2+) retooling attacks on the charge at WS 8 and I7. The wraiths become a lot less scary without RP, and then I can throw the eversor at them to whittle them down a bit.

 Envihon wrote:
A guy in my gaming group has gone over the new Necron codex and is preaching to everyone that the end is nigh because Wraith spam will be the new thing everyone does and more than one squad of Wraiths is going to dominate the 40k scene for the foreseeable future. Now, do I think Wraiths are tough? Yeah and for their points they are a steal but I don't think they are anymore to deal with than anything else that has been overpowered and I do think that they are able to dealt with. He is a Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marine player so I am not intimately familiar with his armies to give him tactical advice on what he can take. I am a Grey Knight, Imperial Fist and Imperial Knight player so when he brought this up, I immediately started thinking of ways to counter Wraith spam.

I looked at the Canoptek Harvest formation that they can come in which would give themselves Reanimation Protocols but I am just not that afraid of it. Adaptive Subroutines is good but it still doesn't have me shaking in my boots and between all the stuff I can bring, I really feel that I would be able to deal with this. I just wanted to know how everyone else was reacting to this. I think Wraiths are a good unit and the formation decent to take but I don't see it as an end all be all sweeping tournaments and gaming groups across the nation. Thoughts?

The issue that popped up is that they are ridiculously survivable when in that formation. It literally takes something like 21 Lascannon shots to kill 1 Wraith and I think someone else figured out that it takes over 300 lasgun shots to kill one wraith. The solutions proposed in the end were to to either tie them up and tarpit them or take out the Spyder first who is giving them RP. Personally I do think it's a bit ridiculous making a unit that hard to kill in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Anyone who focuses on Wraiths killing potential is missing the point. They aren't a pain in the ass because of their damage, they're a pain in the ass because of their insane durability and speed. A necron player with wraiths gets to basically say, at the start of turn two: "whatever your best/strongest/most expensive unit(s) are... I'm taking those away from you now." And there's really nothing you can do to stop them sans focusing 75% of your entire army on trying to take them out.

Some armies are naturally not too bothered by this- Orks for example don't give a gak if a couple boyz squads get hung up by Wraiths. Dark Eldar raider/venom spam and other mech spam lists won't care either. All the armies that rely on death stars and "set-piece" units like Riptides, Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and Ceturions are in a heap of trouble though, as that super tough unit or combination of units that your list revolves around will be taken out of the game by turn 2 unless you hide them in reserves all game.

That's is a good point, even if the wraiths don't give out a large amount of damage output their survivability using that formation means they can pretty much tie anything up on the table for a low point cost.

If these Wraiths are such a tarpit unit, maybe I should see about collecting everything else I need for that DA Ravenwing list I want to play. Their Hit & Run will prevent them from being bogged down unless the Wraiths have some counter for this (I don't know much about 'crons, sorry if I am missing something obvious).

I don't know, I still think I will wait for some of the tabletop results before I confer a judgement. I think the strategy to handle them definitely will be to destroy the Spyder to get rid of it but that is still a good amount of shots to do it with T6 so there is no double toughing the Spyder but there are ways to take away it's armor save at least so that it has to rely on the FnP to survive.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634326.page#7565533

Just to have an image of how durable crons are now.

A few Broadside teams with High Yield Missile Pods and +1 to their overwatch should solve the problem quite nicely.

I fought even 2 formations of them and they only had the min units of all 3 so only 2 sets of 3 wraiths but wow even 3 of them with 4+ reanimation combined with proper placement and stringing them you can easily get the reanimation the first 2 turns which is all that matters.

The did get bogged down on my wraithknight but the spider cought up and started to give more reanimation. The most unfortunate part too is trying to kill the spider first feels like i'd be wasting precious firepower to bring them down. I used up all my shots on wraiths 1st turn and took down like 2 (lucky rulls for him on saves and reanimation) but by t2 all his warriors and imortals were thining my numbers as i couldnt put shots into them with the impending wraith.


People seem to look at them in a bubble and fantisise what they will do, but truth is with the fire they can soak up and not killing them seems like a option thats just as bad...

Needles to say they were brutal to face.

Whenever I play against the necron player in my group, I love it. Bc finally my Kharn/bezerker list really shines. Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results. This leads to Sweeping Advances. Sweeping Advances for everyone.

Anything that can drown them in attacks, DC, Boyz, Bezerkers, etc. have a VERY VERY good chance to sweep them. Ive been able to sweep a unit of warriors reliably with my crisis suits too. Just throwing that out there.

Beavetron wrote:
Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results.

No they don't. In neither case do those wounds count towards combat resolution because they are counted as saved.

Wraith spam was already a thing in my area before the new codex.

6 wraiths with D lord with MSS was pretty sick. and you would have 3 units of those if you had a necron ally.

More so now I would say just 6 wraiths is fine without the D lord. Would be cheaper to run the same units(bc no D lord) and put pts into somthing else.

Beavetron wrote:
Whenever I play against the necron player in my group, I love it. Bc finally my Kharn/bezerker list really shines. Yes theyre Ld10 but if they take wounds, and you have to remember RP rolls are now considered FnP, which means those wounds still count in CC results. This leads to Sweeping Advances. Sweeping Advances for everyone.

Anything that can drown them in attacks, DC, Boyz, Bezerkers, etc. have a VERY VERY good chance to sweep them. Ive been able to sweep a unit of warriors reliably with my crisis suits too. Just throwing that out there.

Wraiths are fearless, and will probably inflict more wounds than DC, Boyz, Berzerkers etc. in combat. Their only issue is a combination of high toughness and strong saves, or fearless hordes. And FnP rolls counts wounds as saved for all purposes, so they do not count towards combat resolution.

As a GK player, I am not looking forward to fighting them, something I will most likely be doing as there was a Necron player and 2 more players picked up the 'dex.

Things I am thankful for, a-.... actually GK doesn't have really anything as a counter to Necrons, Force in melee will be interesting... but if the Necro player has any brains they'll be able to manipulate a suitable unit to bog me down, also due to the wording of the RP rules (feth GW so much...) since the RP is capped to being able to be made on a 4+ AND MODIFIER ADDS TO THE ROLL, a properly kitted out unit actually will not lose anything on their RP roll... which is bs.

Honestly I expect that I am going to not be able to pull out my fun lists anymore, the Necron codex is simply one of the most durable and cost-effective unit sources in the game. They are as durable as marines with slightly better firepower but add in their formations and they become simply put awesome.

But as always the Pure GK answer is Dreadknights and Stormravens, add in allies though and surprisingly I think a Vindicare is a short-term answer for any 'cron player who is still using Quantum Shiedling, once they move past that the FW Knight w/ Hellstorm template is starting to look very lucrative... the sheer amount of wounds it will put out and it's stomp make me want it.

I expect my lists to be built around three Dreadknights and two Stormravens at all times now.

Pdogg614 wrote:
I fought even 2 formations of them and they only had the min units of all 3 so only 2 sets of 3 wraiths but wow even 3 of them with 4+ reanimation combined with proper placement and stringing them you can easily get the reanimation the first 2 turns which is all that matters.

The did get bogged down on my wraithknight but the spider cought up and started to give more reanimation. The most unfortunate part too is trying to kill the spider first feels like i'd be wasting precious firepower to bring them down. I used up all my shots on wraiths 1st turn and took down like 2 (lucky rulls for him on saves and reanimation) but by t2 all his warriors and imortals were thining my numbers as i couldnt put shots into them with the impending wraith.


People seem to look at them in a bubble and fantisise what they will do, but truth is with the fire they can soak up and not killing them seems like a option thats just as bad...

Needles to say they were brutal to face.

The best suggestion I have heard so far is to use Enfeeble. Use the Necrons' lack of psykers against them and they become way less threatening!

 Dannygee wrote:
Wraith spam was already a thing in my area before the new codex.

6 wraiths with D lord with MSS was pretty sick. and you would have 3 units of those if you had a necron ally.

More so now I would say just 6 wraiths is fine without the D lord. Would be cheaper to run the same units(bc no D lord) and put pts into somthing else.

Honestly I'd rather face Wraiths who won't die than D Lord wraiths who kill everything, because at least I can tarpit them or send my own Deathstars to take them down. My Sisters and Nids are gonna be in for a rough ride though...

 gmaleron wrote:
A few Broadside teams with High Yield Missile Pods and +1 to their overwatch should solve the problem quite nicely.

Probably not.

Its about 7 to 14 hits alone to kill a single wraith depending on RP.

I haven't gotten a chance to look at the necron codex yet, and I'm curious how wraiths get RP.

I've heard of the harvest formation where a spyder gives them RP, but I've also heard you can take a 'normal' formation that gives everything in it 4+ RP, wraiths included, for free.

So, how can they get RP? T5 wraiths are a problem, but T5 with 4+ RP is something else entirely.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I haven't gotten a chance to look at the necron codex yet, and I'm curious how wraiths get RP.

I've heard of the harvest formation where a spyder gives them RP, but I've also heard you can take a 'normal' formation that gives everything in it 4+ RP, wraiths included, for free.

So, how can they get RP? T5 wraiths are a problem, but T5 with 4+ RP is something else entirely.

Canoptek Harvest formation. The Wraiths, and any other unit from that specific formation that's within 12" of the Spyder at the start of the turn can get one of 3 rules until the start of their next turn; Fleet, RP, or Shred. Now granted, you have to keep the wraiths rather close to the Spyder, that can't move as fast, but still.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I haven't gotten a chance to look at the necron codex yet, and I'm curious how wraiths get RP.

I've heard of the harvest formation where a spyder gives them RP, but I've also heard you can take a 'normal' formation that gives everything in it 4+ RP, wraiths included, for free.

So, how can they get RP? T5 wraiths are a problem, but T5 with 4+ RP is something else entirely.

Harvest lets you hand out RP to the formation

The Dicherion wahtever which includes the harvest formation is a part of gives it a +1.

So, the only way for wraiths to get RP, is to be close to a spyder? That's not awful. It's pretty good, but does limit their speed quite a bit.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, the only way for wraiths to get RP, is to be close to a spyder? That's not awful. It's pretty good, but does limit their speed quite a bit.

Exactly. Very good formation, but you can't play wraiths like you're used to playing them. I personally love the formation, because I feel like the defenders of the Tomb world work better together, go figure. Gotta love fluffy formations.

As was said above, psychic powers will be their counter. I don't really consider "roll buckets of dice" a true counter because that works against everything. Fearless tar pits can help if they're fast enough.

I'd gladly take old MSS over new Wraiths any day.

i play Iron hands, and use the signature clan raukaan chapter master on a bike as a warlord. I also have a libby with mindforge stave bike, mastery level 2 rolling from sanctic demonology. If you get vortex of doom, wraiths are toast(altough sanctuary works as well) The reason i would only advice this with iron hands(apart from grey knights of course) is the FNP and characters get IWND. So basically you very likely take a wound, unless you are lucky with FNP, but you blast quite a few wraiths with S/D... Not to mention the force weapon to mess up RP, and we have the chapter master to tank wounds..., works wonders against MC Heavy lists, should do against wraiths as well

Wraiths are supreme in durability, but their offense isn't as ridiculous. I see wraith spam as less of a threat than a more balanced list that incorporates wraiths or harvests as mobile cover/vanguard/counter assault units while the rest of the army keeps on truckin.

I have plenty of psychic powers to bring to the table with Grey Knights but I might have to start changing about where I get my powers from.

I am also going to have to increase my Imperial Fist presence it would seem. With such few models, I don't think pure GK or majority of points GK will weather this well, like exampled in the battle report. Dreadknights are definitely something that will have to be taken and along with my Stormraven and Stormtalons. I think I may even outfit my Stormtalons with Typhoon Missile launchers instead of the Skyhammers in order to deny armor rolls. It definitely seems to me that one way to deal with this is to make them rely on RP so that they don't even have a chance to get double rolls on wounds.