Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

And we don't know what the Cause of Death for the Astartes was

It's printed in black and white, old age.

Which doesn't tell us anything. There are a lot of ways to die from old age, especially when an Alien that controls entropy that can destroy your very atoms and reduce them to hydrogen was responsible for your death. His molecules may have flown apart and destabilized. His neurons could have fallen apart faster then they could normally replicate. His very DNA may have been torn asunder by aging so rapidly it may have even experience multiple half lives. His muscles may have atrophied into dust as his body tried to keep him alive with no food, and thus cannibalized itself. Indeed, under the circumstances of rapid progression of time without any nutrition, he probably only had to age a couple months, possibly years, for his body to devour itself and fell apart like a Holocaust victim.

They probably would have mentioned that, as it was it's said he died of old age.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

And we don't know what the Cause of Death for the Astartes was

It's printed in black and white, old age.

Which doesn't tell us anything. There are a lot of ways to die from old age, especially when an Alien that controls entropy that can destroy your very atoms and reduce them to hydrogen was responsible for your death. His molecules may have flown apart and destabilized. His neurons could have fallen apart faster then they could normally replicate. His very DNA may have been torn asunder by aging so rapidly it may have even experience multiple half lives. His muscles may have atrophied into dust as his body tried to keep him alive with no food, and thus cannibalized itself. Indeed, under the circumstances of rapid progression of time without any nutrition, he probably only had to age a couple months, possibly years, for his body to devour itself and fell apart like a Holocaust victim.

They probably would have mentioned that, as it was it's said he died of old age.

No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

It was old age. Is that the exact specific of what killed them? No, but everyone knows what dying of old age means. Maybe it was heart failure, or some other organ gone wrong, but it's a degeneration brought about by getting old.
It's not turning into dust.
It's not decaying into oblivion.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

It was old age. Is that the exact specific of what killed them? No, but everyone knows what dying of old age means. Maybe it was heart failure, or some other organ gone wrong, but it's a degeneration brought about by getting old.
It's not turning into dust.
It's not decaying into oblivion.

Clearly you don't especially when an alien that controls entropy did it. He would have died for starvation/atrophy before his DNA fell apart, which would look no different then old age. Do you even know what atrophy does or looks like?



Those pictured are a mix of men in their prime years and a little over middle age.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

It was old age. Is that the exact specific of what killed them? No, but everyone knows what dying of old age means. Maybe it was heart failure, or some other organ gone wrong, but it's a degeneration brought about by getting old.
It's not turning into dust.
It's not decaying into oblivion.

Clearly you don't especially when an alien that controls entropy did it. He would have died for starvation/atrophy before his DNA fell apart, which would look no different then old age. Do you even know what atrophy does or looks like?



Those pictured are a mix of men in their prime years and a little over middle age.

Yes, they don't look old, just starved.
The Marine did not die from starvation, he died from old age.
As stated in the book.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

It was old age. Is that the exact specific of what killed them? No, but everyone knows what dying of old age means. Maybe it was heart failure, or some other organ gone wrong, but it's a degeneration brought about by getting old.
It's not turning into dust.
It's not decaying into oblivion.

Clearly you don't especially when an alien that controls entropy did it. He would have died for starvation/atrophy before his DNA fell apart, which would look no different then old age. Do you even know what atrophy does or looks like?



Those pictured are a mix of men in their prime years and a little over middle age.

Yes, they don't look old, just starved.
The Marine did not die from starvation, he died from old age.
As stated in the book.

Only because you can see their chest. Fully clothed, they'd look like a skinny old man.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, they said old age, which could have been anything. It's not actual Cause of Death, and certainly isn't an actual example given that it was done by the Hurd.

It was old age. Is that the exact specific of what killed them? No, but everyone knows what dying of old age means. Maybe it was heart failure, or some other organ gone wrong, but it's a degeneration brought about by getting old.
It's not turning into dust.
It's not decaying into oblivion.

Clearly you don't especially when an alien that controls entropy did it. He would have died for starvation/atrophy before his DNA fell apart, which would look no different then old age. Do you even know what atrophy does or looks like?



Those pictured are a mix of men in their prime years and a little over middle age.

Yes, they don't look old, just starved.
The Marine did not die from starvation, he died from old age.
As stated in the book.

Only because you can see their chest. Fully clothed, they'd look like a skinny old man.

I think their chests grant the appearance of age better than their heads which still look young.

What I'd give for some fluff consistency so we don't have to argue about this...

Anyways, those guys' faces look old af

I don't think space marines ever get too old to serve, though there is contradictory fluff on the matter.

If dante is anything to go by, and he is still alive and kicking, then most marines will die in battle before old age becomes a problem.

The secret is that all SM are like orks, they just keep getting bigger.

 dusara217 wrote:
What I'd give for some fluff consistency so we don't have to argue about this...

The fluff is consistent. Marines are long lived but not immortal, and Blood Angels are longer lived than other Space Marines.
The immortal thing is mostly brought up in the Horus Heresy, but even there it is simply the Marines being ignorant of their mortality.

Fabius Bile wrote: ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Outside of that there are some fringe cases in unusual circumstances. Like Gravius who was from the Heresy, but of unknown age as they couldn't ascertain when his ship had left the warp, and involved with the mystic tome of fire.

 dusara217 wrote:
Anyways, those guys' faces look old af

I don't see how, they're not even wrinkled, and one of them has a full head of dark hair.

Animus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
What I'd give for some fluff consistency so we don't have to argue about this...

The fluff is consistent. Marines are long lived but not immortal, and Blood Angels are longer lived than other Space Marines.
The immortal thing is mostly brought up in the Horus Heresy, but even there it is simply the Marines being ignorant of their mortality.

Fabius Bile wrote: ‘The Emperor’s soldiers who came before us, the Thunder Warriors, their gene-code carried the seeds of their own destruction. And the gene-boosted savages before them? They were fortunate to live as long as they did before their hyper-metabolism consumed them. The primarchs think their warriors are immortal, but they are wrong. We are as mortal as any living thing, we just take longer to die. I would not have it so.’

Outside of that there are some fringe cases in unusual circumstances. Like Gravius who was from the Heresy, but of unknown age as they couldn't ascertain when his ship had left the warp, and involved with the mystic tome of fire.

 dusara217 wrote:
Anyways, those guys' faces look old af

I don't see how, they're not even wrinkled, and one of them has a full head of dark hair.

And what about the Salamander guarding his post for 10k years without dying, until he finally croaked from atrophy? What about us never seeing or hearing of an example of a Space Marine actually dying of old age, or suffering from the effects of old age, despite living for thousands of years outside of a Dreadnought?

Yep, I was the heretical twit who suggested that an injured, but still functional Marine might find himself on a vehicle crew. Just speculation on my part.

But yes, between bio-augmentics and cybernetics a Space Marine should be kept operational for... I dunno, ages. Though there are injuries that even Space Marines and 40-41st Millenium science can't cure.

As I recall, Horus' spymaster was an injured Luna Wolf who was no longer combat capable. Someone with more 30K knowledge than I please confirm or deny.

There is an old 2nd-3rd edition bit of fluff that has a Chaos Marine Captain - Karlsen, I think his name was - physically storing memories that were worth keeping. Fellow had tentacles in place of his hand/forearm as I recall. But it would illustrate the memory problem for exceptionally old SpaceMarines, even (especially) those influenced by the Warp.

Even if a Space Marine regenerates neurons (fascinating thought) wouldn't he biologically lose memories as the appropriate cells and their thought patterns are replaced? Over time a Space Marine's memory and even his personality could change, becoming more and more a creature of recent memories - a creature of their Chapter.

Full disclosure, I practice a similar process for immortal Elves in a fantasy RPG I run. Over time they can become someone entirely different.

That's part of the reason oral tradition and honoring past glories are critically important to them... to reinforce memory before it's lost. One could make the same argument for individual Space Marines, although the real reason Marines practice those traditions is to honor the Chapter as a whole. I think.

That said, the vast majority of Space Marines die in battle, so age is not an issue. They're always on a combat footing after all.

My two teef.

 dusara217 wrote:

And what about the Salamander guarding his post for 10k years without dying, until he finally croaked from atrophy?

Well, I already mentioned Gravius in my post if you cared to read, but I'll reiterate.
His exact age is unknown, he's from the heresy but crashed out of the warp an indeterminate time ago.
He's involved with the Tome of Fire which seems to have mystical properties, even the Salamander apothecaries don't think he should be alive, yet he lasts long enough to give the Salamanders their next clue.

 dusara217 wrote:
What about us never seeing or hearing of an example of a Space Marine actually dying of old age,

Well we do have the one with the Iron Warriors getting prematurely aged, but in general it's not exactly a thrilling story, is it?

 dusara217 wrote:
or suffering from the effects of old age

We do see this though, Marines going old and gray. Marines retiring from battle because they're too old to keep at campaigning standard.

 dusara217 wrote:
despite living for thousands of years outside of a Dreadnought?

Well that's Dante, and he's a Blood Angel - who have longer life spans than other Space Marines - and even amogst the Angels he seems to be something a bit special, perhaps being the focus of a prophecy.

Commander Dante (BA): At least 1200 years old
High Marshal ludoldus(BT): ~2000 years old
Chief Librarian Montecristo(CK): at least 2k years old
Cypher: 11k years w/out Chaos patronage, though time in the Warp may knock it down to 5k-9k
Ulrik the Slayer: at least 900+ years to still see Grimnar as a boy, though probably far older

The Hrud is a magical fething weapon, you cannot use it as an example of Space Marines dying of old age, it's fething space magic.

My least favorite Imperial Fist (Darnath Lysander) is also quite old. But he spent time in the warp.

 dusara217 wrote:
Commander Dante (BA): At least 1200 years old

Blood Angel and hinted at being special beyond that besides.

 dusara217 wrote:
High Marshal ludoldus(BT): ~2000 years old

We don't even know if that's the same guy, or anything of his circumstances if he is.

 dusara217 wrote:
Chief Librarian Montecristo(CK): at least 2k years old

A fanfiction character? Not even going to go there.

 dusara217 wrote:
Cypher: 11k years w/out Chaos patronage, though time in the Warp may knock it down to 5k-9k

We don't know if he's got Chaos patronage, he certainly seems to have someone's though.

 dusara217 wrote:
Ulrik the Slayer: at least 900+ years to still see Grimnar as a boy, though probably far older

Ulrik is old, but shows signs of advanced age.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Hrud is a magical fething weapon, you cannot use it as an example of Space Marines dying of old age, it's fething space magic.

We know they age people, if Space Marines didn't age they wouldn't feel the effect, just like Dante did not visibly age after he got hit with aging magic.

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

raekone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

Humans don't live for over a thousand years. And we don't regenerate our brains like an Astartes would have to.

 Wyzilla wrote:

raekone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

Humans don't live for over a thousand years. And we don't regenerate our brains like an Astartes would have to.

Can I get a source? I don't remember ever reading about regenerating brains besides, they can be sane without having obliterated memories. Really, I am not sure where you're getting this theory

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

raekone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

Humans don't live for over a thousand years. And we don't regenerate our brains like an Astartes would have to.

Can I get a source? I don't remember ever reading about regenerating brains besides, they can be sane without having obliterated memories. Really, I am not sure where you're getting this theory

No, I mean they HAVE to grow new brain tissue considering that in their very, very, very long lives they should be constantly losing cells... when the opposite is true.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The secret is that all SM are like orks, they just keep getting bigger.

Yeah, thats not a mangled space marine in those contemptors.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

raekone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

Humans don't live for over a thousand years. And we don't regenerate our brains like an Astartes would have to.

Can I get a source? I don't remember ever reading about regenerating brains besides, they can be sane without having obliterated memories. Really, I am not sure where you're getting this theory

No, I mean they HAVE to grow new brain tissue considering that in their very, very, very long lives they should be constantly losing cells... when the opposite is true.

They have to lose cells, but their is nothing to assume their cells die at the same rate ours do. Unless you have a source to back it up, I'd argue due to their advanced biology, their cells die at a slower rate or at least replace quickly enough for the effects to be negligible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

raekone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
but as Space Marines must generate new neurons given that they're still sane at around a millennia of life. So, given enough time, an Astartes would effectively reincarnate in that all original tissue in the brain would have died and been replaced, thus likely obliterating all of his original memories. Meaning he'd effectively be a new person.

Ehh....this would not necessarily be true. Reason I say that is because human's effectively do the same thing in real life and we maintain our original memories depending on circumstances of course....

Humans don't live for over a thousand years. And we don't regenerate our brains like an Astartes would have to.

Can I get a source? I don't remember ever reading about regenerating brains besides, they can be sane without having obliterated memories. Really, I am not sure where you're getting this theory

No, I mean they HAVE to grow new brain tissue considering that in their very, very, very long lives they should be constantly losing cells... when the opposite is true.

They have to lose cells, but their is nothing to assume their cells die at the same rate ours do. Unless you have a source to back it up, I'd argue due to their advanced biology, their cells die at a slower rate or at least replace quickly enough for the effects to be negligible.

It's more likely that given their absurd regeneration rate, Space Marines have souped up Stem Cells and retain Stem Cells throughout their lives in massive amounts.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Well first we have to understand that the muscles, skeletal tissue, and sub dermal organs of marines don't seem to age.

There is evidence of space marine's muscles and bones aging. The space wolves had a rune priest who had aged to the point where his old bones and stiff joints made standing up and walking difficult for him. Please take note that this is before the starting point of Horus Heresy, so the rune priest couldn’t have been much older than 200 years and yet the guy already suffered from the effects of old age.

He was part of the legion, but it's never stated if he was a true marine or one of Russ's enhanced pre-Legion buddies. Kor Phaeron had similar issues, IIRC.

I don’t see your point. One was explicitly stated to be too old for geen-seed therapy, while the one other was not. Lack of evidence does not make something true.