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1900/02/05 07:46:47
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
So, I've had an idea now for a while for a new 40k race. Basically, it's a race of beings that evolved in such a way as to be naturally accepting of possession. In theory, I'd like to create rules and fluff for the race, so that I could potentially field it as an actual army some day, and maybe even pitch the idea to gamesworkshop.
In practice, it's likely going to result in me making a bunch of custom models for a chaos demons army.
The fluff is dense, and may become a thread unto itself, but here's what I have so far, as a basis;
Spoiler:
The beings of Connumbros were uncultured, simplistic, and weak. Prone to bursts of extreme emotional distress, the Connumbrans could never focus on a task long enough to make great head way to completing it. Often, their extreme tempers and jealous tendencies would break apart any group effort before it even started. These simple, weak, pathetic creatures would undoubtedly have perished, were it not for the plans of Tzeench.
What none knew about this race, not even the race itself, was that each one was a powerful psychic conduit. Their strong emotions made them potent sources of Warp energy, and some unique quark of their anatomy allowed them to channel huge sums of it through them. Naturally, the other warp gods had sensed this, but as they were incapable of controlling that warp energy enough to do anything with it, the others had ignored them. Tzeench, however, decided to experiment.
Through great effort, he managed to get a chaos sorcerer to their planet. Once there, the sorcerer began to summon demons of Tzeench. However, when he tried to sacrifice one of the Connumbrans to achieve his goal, something strange happened. The demon was summoned, but instead of killing its host, it possessed the poor mortal. Such things had occurred before, so the sorcerer was not too taken aback. That is, until the Connumbran maintained its form. Unlike one would expect of a possessed, the creature was hardly phased, physically, by being possessed. Indeed, once the demon was dismissed, the xeno even returned to its previous state, virtually unharmed.
Upon further experimentation, it was discovered that the entire race held this attribute, and some even more so than others. It was even discovered that a very rare few could withstand the presence of a greater demon, enabling the sorcerer to summon the aid of a wiser voice than his own to guide the Connumbrans.
After years of experimentation and social reconstruction, the Connumbrans are brought to a level of technology similar to that of medieval Terra. However, all of their tools are carved with demonic symbols, as well as their armor and weaponry. These ruins allow them to channel the powers of the demons that possess them into the weapons they wield, in effect letting the demon that possesses them channel the raw warp energy that would normally make up its own weaponry into the physical housing, letting it replicate the effect of the original demonic weapon.
As time passes, the improvement of the race is brought to the attention of the other chaos gods, and before long, the entire planet of Connumbrah is enveloped in a powerful warp storm, as the armies of the warp begin amassing on its surface. The planet is now part of the black legion, but that is not enough. These beings, these strange, unique things, must be spread to the rest of the galaxy, so that more demons may walk among mortals in suites of flesh.
Now, again, theoretically, I'd like to make this an entirely new army, rules and all. However, as it stands, that's not likely practical.
So, as kind of a diving-off point, I've decided to use the Demon codex as a template.
Basically, everything in the Demon army can be played as a Connumbran possessed. They keep their stats, their mark, and any gear they have. The only things that change are the following;
The 'Demon' special rule becomes the 'Demonic Possessed' special rule.
The 'Demonic Instability' special rule becomes the 'Warp Flux' rule.
Monstrous creatures become Infantry, flying monstrous creatures become Jump Infantry.
Demonic Possessed: This model has Feel No Pain (+5), and Fearless.
Warp Flux: If a unit with this special rule looses combat, roll a leadership test on its unmodified leadership. If the test is failed, the unit looses the benefits of the Demonic Possessed special rule until the end of the next assault phase. This test happens before combat resolution is determined, so if the Warp Flux test is failed, the unit is treated as not having Fearless for the purposes of loosing the combat.
These are mostly just fluff-inspired rules, that I hope aren't too far off the original demon rules to make using them game-breaking.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? All (relevant) feed back is welcome.
2015/02/05 07:53:56
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
It sounds mathematically identical to just playing Daemons but slightly worse with the possibility of fleeing from combat and with no Cursed Earth or Grimoire interaction. The biggest question I have is why this is necessary? What do you actually change from a rules standpoint?
AnomanderRake wrote: It sounds mathematically identical to just playing Daemons but slightly worse with the possibility of fleeing from combat and with no Cursed Earth or Grimoire interaction. The biggest question I have is why this is necessary? What do you actually change from a rules standpoint?
Well, like I said, this isn't actually what I'm aiming at as the end-goal. It's just a diving-off point, which I'd planned on using as a basis for the army until I can actually get some more elaborate rules made up.
Right now, this is just a way of running the army with rules that are more fluffy than just running it as Codex Demons with a bunch of custom models.
I'm more interested in people's reaction to the concept, as well as what people would want to see out of an army like this, if people like it as an idea, if they think they'd be willing to allow someone to use what I've presented here in a fluff game or campaign, etc.
But, yea, no, the rules I presented are not the sum-total of what I plan to do with this.
2015/02/05 09:28:36
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
I'm trying to figure out what you want out of the rules. Is there something about the Daemons rules you dislike, is there some obstacle to just running these as Daemons? If you're writing an entire homebrew book that boils down to "mathematically the same as the Daemons book" you're pouring a lot of work into something a lot of people won't be happy with you running for no purpose, the game plays exactly the same.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm trying to figure out what you want out of the rules. Is there something about the Daemons rules you dislike, is there some obstacle to just running these as Daemons? If you're writing an entire homebrew book that boils down to "mathematically the same as the Daemons book" you're pouring a lot of work into something a lot of people won't be happy with you running for no purpose, the game plays exactly the same.
Ideally, it will end up being a complete codex unto itself, with rules and fluff that will be unique to only it.
Again, the rules I have given here are not the only dimension to this idea. While it's quite likely that some version of them will make it into the final cut, it will be on units that will be completely unique and separate from anything in the Demons codex.
The purpose is not to remake the demon codex. The only reason the demon codex comes into this at all is in case I decide to play a game with them before I have the rest of the rules written up. The reason the rules I've given make them so similar to just playing demons is because I don't want to be accused of doing this just so I can run broken home-brew units.
2015/02/06 02:35:54
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
Filch wrote: jn the nicest way possible, wtf? is what i kept asking as i read what you wrote.
Well, in the nicest way possible, you obviously did not read all of it. I stated at the end, only relevant feedback is welcome. Your comment is so vague, it's completely unhelpful, so until it is clarified, it will not be relevant to the discussion.
Again, I mean that in the nicest way possible.
2015/02/06 23:41:00
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
Necroes wrote: Ideally, it will end up being a complete codex unto itself, with rules and fluff that will be unique to only it.
This. Tell me about this. WHAT is going to be unique about this Codex?
The ideas I have for the codex are incomplete, but here's what I have so far.
The HQs and some of the Heavy support units would be infantry, with monstrous-creature stat lines, with a points cost to match.
A number of the units will have the ability to manifest warp dice, but won't actually be able to cast powers.
The troops will likely be based off demon troops, but with different special rules.
The key of the army will be maintaining possession. If possession is lost, the unit that lost it will suffer penalties, but will have benefit to compensate that.
Although it will be a melee army, it will have long-ranged anti-tank and heavy infantry weapons as support, which will take the form of psykers with specialized powers.
Psykers in the army will have limited access to other psyker tables, but will have abilities that allow them to either mitigate, or get a not-save against, perils of the warp.
Those are a few general ideas I've had. Like I said, I've not gotten a lot more about the army in stone. I'm trying to come up with ideas for units that fit the army, then once I know that I can make a codex-worth of units, I plan to hammer out the actual rules.
2015/02/07 11:06:48
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
It does not sound any more different than just playing Daemons because of instability rule.
You sound like a spesh marine fanboy who wants to write an unnecessary custom chapter except in this case its Daemons.
Play Crimson Slaughter if you want Possessed Marines.
my constructive criticism is this. make an army that is good at possessing the enemy.
A horde of ghostly floating immaterial spirits flying at the enemy phasing thru walls! Blades, Bullets, lasers, plasma, flames, will not hurt them! because they are immaterial unlike daemons. Once locked into combat, instead of attacking, the enemy must make a leadership test even if they are fearless and if they fail then they get Possessed. hell these spirits can do psychic shooting to possess the enemy minds from 24". Against vehicles and anything without leadership, its an auto possession.
Feth you necrons and Imperial Knights! Only Grey Knights blessed psy ammo bolters and sanctic psychic powers can help you!
you can even possess evil chaos space marines and daemons!
imagine that! an army with a universal rule of immunity to all physical combat and shooting! But only vulnerable to psychic abilities and shooting, force weapons belonging to psychers, and psybolt ammo bolters. Each time a model is possessed, one of yours is removed. Lets say 1:1 for infantry base. 1:2 terminator and cavalry and bikers base. 1:3: for walkers. 1:4 for vehicles of chimera size. 1:5 for land raider, wraith knight/lord, riptide, dread knight. 1:10 for Imperial knight titan.
Call it the Daemonic Possession Apparition Army, a supplement to the Chaos Daemon Army.
Necroes wrote: Ideally, it will end up being a complete codex unto itself, with rules and fluff that will be unique to only it.
This. Tell me about this. WHAT is going to be unique about this Codex?
The ideas I have for the codex are incomplete, but here's what I have so far.
The HQs and some of the Heavy support units would be infantry, with monstrous-creature stat lines, with a points cost to match.
A number of the units will have the ability to manifest warp dice, but won't actually be able to cast powers.
The troops will likely be based off demon troops, but with different special rules.
The key of the army will be maintaining possession. If possession is lost, the unit that lost it will suffer penalties, but will have benefit to compensate that.
Although it will be a melee army, it will have long-ranged anti-tank and heavy infantry weapons as support, which will take the form of psykers with specialized powers.
Psykers in the army will have limited access to other psyker tables, but will have abilities that allow them to either mitigate, or get a not-save against, perils of the warp.
Those are a few general ideas I've had. Like I said, I've not gotten a lot more about the army in stone. I'm trying to come up with ideas for units that fit the army, then once I know that I can make a codex-worth of units, I plan to hammer out the actual rules.
You want to play Daemons, only different. Different HOW?
I want to play an army of xenos possessed by daemons. However, possessed chaos units are ugly as sin, are sub-par units at best, and extremely limited in variety.
I want it to be a melee army, because it would only make sense for it to Be a melee army, because daemons are controlling them, and daemons use melee tactics.
I want a few members of the army to be Similar to daemons, so people can point at them and go 'Oh, it's possessed by a (insert daemons unit here). Makes sense its rules would be similar.'
2015/02/07 19:20:18
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
I want to play an army of xenos possessed by daemons. However, possessed chaos units are ugly as sin, are sub-par units at best, and extremely limited in variety.
I want it to be a melee army, because it would only make sense for it to Be a melee army, because daemons are controlling them, and daemons use melee tactics.
I want a few members of the army to be Similar to daemons, so people can point at them and go 'Oh, it's possessed by a (insert daemons unit here). Makes sense its rules would be similar.'
Literally everything you've told us about the rules is Daemons edited to be mathematically identical but functionally different. Why do you need a new Codex for this instead of running a proxy Daemons-Codex army?
Filch wrote: jn the nicest way possible, wtf? is what i kept asking as i read what you wrote.
Well, in the nicest way possible, you obviously did not read all of it. I stated at the end, only relevant feedback is welcome. Your comment is so vague, it's completely unhelpful, so until it is clarified, it will not be relevant to the discussion.
Again, I mean that in the nicest way possible.
Let me explain a bit better. As I was reading what you wrote, I said to my self, "What the Feth is this guy thinking? What is he rambling about? What is the point?"
Honestly I stopped reading after a few minutes because I had enough sense to know there is no difference in what you are proposing and what the Daemon army already is. Also your initial post was so vague and un-interesting and was not even worth me discussing at first. The only reason why I stuck it out and tolerated you is because I genuinely like the premise of a Possessed Army since I have been playing Chaos Space Marines for 6 years and happen to have many possessed marines. I would like to help you but you gotta to be willing listen to good advice.
I am sorry if this feels like an attack on you but you remind me of a fellow marine player who wanted to make a Howling Griffon army that essentially played indentical to Blood Angles. He even insisted on making a Viking Marine army which the Space Wolves already are. He also wanted to make an elite IG army which the Krieg Death Korps already are. He was overly sensitive to any criticism. Not only that, the thought his idea to be grandiose and he seriously needed a reality check because of his ego.
In the nicest way possible, you have the wrong attitude . You think your idea is very unique. The daemon army already has melee troops such as blood letters, plague bearers, and daemonettes. The daemon army already has demonic instability and would be the same thing to your idea of losing possession. You are sensitive to the slightest criticism.
Amander Rake is a respected member and he has help countless players improve their Chaos army list. He has already pointed out 3 times how your possessed army is no different from a Daemon army. How about you show Amander Rake how your codex will be different and worth playing?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/07 20:05:14
2015/02/08 06:59:03
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
AnomanderRake wrote: Literally everything you've told us about the rules is Daemons edited to be mathematically identical but functionally different. Why do you need a new Codex for this instead of running a proxy Daemons-Codex army?
Again, the rules I've presented thus-far are Not the Only differences I want there to be. They're just the only ones I know I want to incorporate into the army.
You want to see what things this army will have to offer? Well, here's a few ideas I have so far.
Nurgle Belchers (not the actual name)
40 pts. each, squad size 1-3, infantry (Elites)
WS:3 BS:3 S;4 t:5 w:2 A:2 I:2 Ld:8 Sv:-
Special Rules: Demonic Possession, Demon Instability, Psychic Brotherhood (Ml 2)
Nurgle Belchers may not role on any psyker tables. Instead, they know Nurgle's Haze and Nurgle Swarm.
Nurgle's Haze: Wc. 1; Until the start of your next psyker phase, all units within 6 inches of the caster gain Stealth, and any unit with the Demonic Possession special rule that ended its movement phase within 6 inches of the caster gain poison (6+) on all melee attacks.
Nurgle Swarm: Wc. 2; Psychic shooting attack
Range 24 inches, S:1 Ap:2 Assault 1, Poison 2+, torrent
Tzeentch's Pyromancer (not actual name)
150 pts. each, squad size 1, infantry (Heavy Support)
WS:3 BS:4 S:4 T:6 W:3 A:1 I:2 Ld:9 Sv:4+
Special Rules: Demonic Instability, Demonic Possession, Psycher (Ml 2), Student of Tzeench
Student of Tzeench: When a model with this special rule suffers a Perils of the Warp, he may choose to inflict a single wound on his squad instead of rolling on the Perils of the Warp table. No saves may be taken against this wound, nor can it be negated by Feel No Pain. The owner of the model may decide which member of the squad the wound is inflicted upon.
Tzeentch's Pyromancer may manifest powers from the Pyromancy table, and always knows Searing Spear
Searing Spear: Wc. 3; Psychic Beam Attack
Range 72 inches, S:9, Ap:1, Melta, Soul Blaze (Hits inflicted by Searing Spear gain the benefits of the Melta special rule only if the model hit is within 36 inches of the caster)
Hollows (not actual name)
4 pts. each, squad size 10-30 (troops)
WS:2 BS:2 S:2 T:2 W:1 A:1 I:2 Ld: 6 Sv.:-
Special Rules: Warp Conduit, Disordered Horde
Warp Conduit: At the start of the controlling players' Psyker Phase, the controller of a squad of Hollows generates 1 additional warp charge for every five Hollows in the unit, rounding down.
Disordered Horde: A squad consisting entirely of models with this special rule may be joined by single-model infantry units, as though that model had the Independent Character special rule. That model may leave the squad at any time, following the rules as though the model had the Independent Character special rule. Note: Single-model infantry units may start the game with a squad of Hollows, but only one may do so in this way, excluding models with the Independent Character special rule.
See. I have ideas. I just have no idea if they're any good, or anywhere close to balanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 09:34:32
2015/02/09 00:56:25
Subject: Re:Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
AnomanderRake wrote: Literally everything you've told us about the rules is Daemons edited to be mathematically identical but functionally different. Why do you need a new Codex for this instead of running a proxy Daemons-Codex army?
Again, the rules I've presented thus-far are Not the Only differences I want there to be. They're just the only ones I know I want to incorporate into the army.
You want to see what things this army will have to offer? Well, here's a few ideas I have so far.
Nurgle Belchers (not the actual name)
40 pts. each, squad size 1-3, infantry (Elites)
WS:3 BS:3 S;4 t:5 w:2 A:2 I:2 Ld:8 Sv:-
Special Rules: Demonic Possession, Demon Instability, Psychic Brotherhood (Ml 2)
Nurgle Belchers may not role on any psyker tables. Instead, they know Nurgle's Haze and Nurgle Swarm.
Nurgle's Haze: Wc. 1; Until the start of your next psyker phase, all units within 6 inches of the caster gain Stealth, and any unit with the Demonic Possession special rule that ended its movement phase within 6 inches of the caster gain poison (6+) on all melee attacks.
Nurgle Swarm: Wc. 2; Psychic shooting attack
Range 24 inches, S:1 Ap:2 Assault 1, Poison 2+, torrent
Tzeentch's Pyromancer (not actual name)
150 pts. each, squad size 1, infantry (Heavy Support)
WS:3 BS:4 S:4 T:6 W:3 A:1 I:2 Ld:9 Sv:4+
Special Rules: Demonic Instability, Demonic Possession, Psycher (Ml 2), Student of Tzeench
Student of Tzeench: When a model with this special rule suffers a Perils of the Warp, he may choose to inflict a single wound on his squad instead of rolling on the Perils of the Warp table. No saves may be taken against this wound, nor can it be negated by Feel No Pain. The owner of the model may decide which member of the squad the wound is inflicted upon.
Tzeentch's Pyromancer may manifest powers from the Pyromancy table, and always knows Searing Spear
Searing Spear: Wc. 3; Psychic Beam Attack
Range 72 inches, S:9, Ap:1, Melta, Soul Blaze (Hits inflicted by Searing Spear gain the benefits of the Melta special rule only if the model hit is within 36 inches of the caster)
Hollows (not actual name)
4 pts. each, squad size 10-30 (troops)
WS:2 BS:2 S:2 T:2 W:1 A:1 I:2 Ld: 6 Sv.:-
Special Rules: Warp Conduit, Disordered Horde
Warp Conduit: At the start of the controlling players' Psyker Phase, the controller of a squad of Hollows generates 1 additional warp charge for every five Hollows in the unit, rounding down.
Disordered Horde: A squad consisting entirely of models with this special rule may be joined by single-model infantry units, as though that model had the Independent Character special rule. That model may leave the squad at any time, following the rules as though the model had the Independent Character special rule. Note: Single-model infantry units may start the game with a squad of Hollows, but only one may do so in this way, excluding models with the Independent Character special rule.
See. I have ideas. I just have no idea if they're any good, or anywhere close to balanced.
So these two psychic powers seem stupidly, stupidly powerful. A range Table, Strength 9 AP 1 beam that rolls two dice to pen within 36 inches, and a AP 2 wounds on 2s torrent template? It's not even like you have to roll for them, they automatically come with them. I honestly can't even think of how many points they should cost, aside from a lot more than what you're asking. One of the things you need to think about when making your own rules is, "Would you be okay with your opponent taking this is his army?" Those two units destroy everything they touch, and aren't all that expensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 01:54:15
2015/02/09 05:19:56
Subject: Re:Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
Filch wrote:Thats a good start but...[youtube]
Tzeench Pyromancer sounds too much like Tzeench Flamers
Isn't there already a Nurgle Belcher? Or something very similar?
The only one that stands out is the Hallows. Are we talking Dark Souls Hallows or Bleach Hallows?
The names aren't set in stone, as it says immediately next to them, they're just something to call them until I come up with a better name.
And, yes, there Is a tzeench flamer unit. However, their rules and purpose are completely different from what I presented.
So far as I know, there isn't anything Nurgle that's some kind of puke-oriented creature... you probably think that because it's kind of hard to believe that there isn't.
And they're called hollows because of their fluff I have for them. Even if the name belongs to something in other games, I don't really see an issue, as it doesn't already belong to something in the 40k universe.
Deadawake1347 wrote:So these two psychic powers seem stupidly, stupidly powerful. A range Table, Strength 9 AP 1 beam that rolls two dice to pen within 36 inches, and a AP 2 wounds on 2s torrent template? It's not even like you have to roll for them, they automatically come with them. I honestly can't even think of how many points they should cost, aside from a lot more than what you're asking. One of the things you need to think about when making your own rules is, "Would you be okay with your opponent taking this is his army?" Those two units destroy everything they touch, and aren't all that expensive.
Thank you for pointing out that they're not balanced. I was already aware of that. I even mentioned as much, there at the end.
Do you have any suggestions to balance them? Say, a way to change to rules to keep the same general idea, but be less over-powered?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/09 05:20:55
2015/02/09 18:49:06
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
Well, I'd make the Nurgle one poison 4+ if you want to keep the AP2, so that it's not effectively auto-killing everything under it. Also, torrents are generally twelve inch range, not twenty-four.
I'm honestly not sure what to do about the Tzeench Kamehameha. Beams are generally short range since they hit everything under the line, and melta weapons are also usually rather short ranged, with the highest being multi-meltas at 24" It would be considerably more balanced, but still strong, as a 24" beam. That way you'd actually have to get close to get the melta benefit, and anything that survived could pose a threat in response.
2015/02/10 06:41:58
Subject: Chaos Possessed: An Army Forged in Hell-Fire
Deadawake1347 wrote: Well, I'd make the Nurgle one poison 4+ if you want to keep the AP2, so that it's not effectively auto-killing everything under it. Also, torrents are generally twelve inch range, not twenty-four.
I'm honestly not sure what to do about the Tzeench Kamehameha. Beams are generally short range since they hit everything under the line, and melta weapons are also usually rather short ranged, with the highest being multi-meltas at 24" It would be considerably more balanced, but still strong, as a 24" beam. That way you'd actually have to get close to get the melta benefit, and anything that survived could pose a threat in response.
I can understand making it a 4+ poison. That's fair. I'd prefer not to shorten the range to 12, though, as I think that would make them too susceptible to being wiped before they could get into firing range. Maybe 18 inches?
I talked to a friend about the spear, and he suggested changing it to a S8 armor-bane, but make it a 48 inch range psychic malediction, that spawns a 6" line of damage from whatever it targets.
. You think your idea is very unique. The daemon army already has melee troops such as blood letters, plague bearers, and daemonettes. The daemon army already has demonic instability and would be the same thing to your idea of losing possession. You are sensitive to the slightest criticism.