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I was just re reading 7th edition and i thought that they (games workshop) could make some more interesting and fun rules from 5th or even totally original ideas.
any ideas on it, be as creative as you want, it can be a universal rule or codex specific if you want

charge from deepstriking it would be a huge boon to a number of units that struggle to get into cc that basically need too or their dead like mutilators, terminators in general, and if this could extended to drop pod units then you could also include assault marines into that list who basically struggle on the battlefield and have been rendered obsolete by the games transition towards shooting over close combat fighting.

i also feel that reworking hit & run needs to happen. something needs to be done to fix this stupid game mechanic that is wayyyyy to abused in its current form. ask any tau player or eldar player what is the most useful skill on any of his units and hit & run will come up very often. this would also do a lot to discourage biker spam lists that basically have polluted the eldar and space marines codex

I know that close combat armies are already struggling, but I think it would be a funny rule if commisars could order tanks to fire upon guardsmen or conscripts that are locked in close combat. The ordered vehicle would have to pass a modified moral test to see if they'd be willing to risk killing their own brothers to destroy a much bigger and prominent threat.

Or even just being able to shoot at super heavys/walkers, even if engaged in combat they are so big and tower over most troops, why wouldn't they be able to get the shots off?

i would like to see units with fleet be able to charge after running like they used to

I would like to see an allies detachment cost 10% more in points.

I would really like a hybrid of 5th and 6th rapid fire. In 5th, you only got to shoot out to max range if you stood still, and you got the extra shot at 12". 6th ed made the extra shot at half weapon range (thus giving tau a rapid fire ranged advantage.)

how about...
a new item of vehicle wargear called 'grab-handles'

costing 2pts each handle; grab handles allow one infantry model to 'ride along' with the vehicle (they are already in base contact with the vehicle) they remain so after the vehicle has finished moving and are also moved the same distance that the vehicle had moved.

a model may make no extra movement for any reason if they have, or intend to move using a vehicles grab-handles. models which have moved in this manner may only fire snap-shots and may not assault for any reason in a turn in which they use grab handles. a unit which is charged while using grab-handles has their weapon skill reduced to 1. a unit or model which has 'gone to ground' cannot use grab-handles in their next player turn.

a vehicle must have enough grab-handles to carry the entire unit in order to carry a unit in this manner. bulky, very bulky and extremely bulky models, monstorus creatures, walkers and swarms cannot use grab-handles.
if a vehicle turbo-boosts while it has models using it's grab handles, all models carried in this manner must take a dangerous terrain test and are moved with the vehicle.

inspired by that khorne formation where khorne berzerkers could ride-on a defiler.

1. Ignores cover: cover save better than 5+ are reduced to 5+

2. Any reroll is always a failure on a result of 1,2 and 3.

I think these 2 simple changes could bring more balance in the game.

interesting sounding rules, i like the idea of shooting on your own troops in the imperial guard, i don't get why they haven't done it as the commander can kill his own troops to pass a leadership (because the best way to not become afraid is to watch your comrade be shot by the man who gives you orders for no apparent reason). i am not sure about the re rolls, being a space marine army with tons of twin linked weapons i am rather fond of my re rolls, one thing i would suggest though is instead of being twin linked why not some of the time it could be two separate weapons. i also like grab handles, how about they can only take snap shots. thanks guys

What would I bring back? The missing terrain rules (levels in ruins and blasts only hitting one level, etc) that GW removed in 7th for no apparent reason beyond "we don't sell a model for generic terrain rules".

I would like the rules overall to harken back to a time when everything was a bit less alpha strike-y.

When you moved your army and fired a couple missiles, and he moved his and did the same, and then somewhere around bottom of 2 or top of 3 you really got into the meat of the game.

Nowadays it's like "rawr drop pods away meltameltamelta half your army's dead gg go again?" or "wave serpent pew pew x 4726 pick up your army, gg go again?"

I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the point.

you do have a point, i played an ork army ( i play space marine and ig together) i took out half his army in go 1! it was because i had 5 hunter killers. they need to simplify 7th, thanks

Assault from deepstrike would be good, along with fleet giving run + charge. I think all deepstrikers should have mishap posibilities, "reduce the scatter range" rule is lame and quite a point and click tactic.

All the other points in the thread i like too.

Like to see Terror given to a select few models, a few per codex for the big monsters. Terror causes fear to any unit even if it ignores fear unless the model already has Terror. In the Nid codex it would be Swarmlord at a minimum.

 the clone wrote:
interesting sounding rules, i like the idea of shooting on your own troops in the imperial guard, i don't get why they haven't done it as the commander can kill his own troops to pass a leadership (because the best way to not become afraid is to watch your comrade be shot by the man who gives you orders for no apparent reason). i am not sure about the re rolls, being a space marine army with tons of twin linked weapons i am rather fond of my re rolls, one thing i would suggest though is instead of being twin linked why not some of the time it could be two separate weapons. i also like grab handles, how about they can only take snap shots. thvanks guys

SM get a little nerf on twinlinked, but the entire game gains balance, in fact removing all that rerollable 2+ that lead to unstoppable units (screamers?) or that units like Serpent with 10 TL shots at S6+.

I would be okay with assault out of deepstrike, if overwatch was done on full BS. Anything else will make the game assault only all the time.


I would actually like to see overwatch drop your initiative to 1, as the whole point in the initiative penalty for charging into cover is to represent the close range shooting of the target unit. Which is what overwatch is. So if you shoot an incoming unit you should fight at initiative 1 also, or allow the charging unit to go at normal initiative, because the target unit is not set to receive a charge, since you know, it is shooting.

just get rid of the psychic phase, or modify it alot.

the psychic phase can be annoying

Okay, let's see...

- Rules are divided into Basic Rules and Advanced Rules. Former has only the most basic stuff (plus Flyers), while the latter has all the trash (allies, formations, unbound, fortifications, super-heavies, you name it). Advanced Rules are entirely optional and are considered as "extensions" to the normal game.
- Snap Shooting is -2 BS. This means that blasts/templates work normally when Snap Shooting.
- Wound Allocation is not "nearest model" but "owner picks". Kinda like in 5th edition, but without the weird "different-socks" shenanigans - once picked, you must simply feed a model with wounds until it dies (or you run out of wounds) and that's all.
- Charge distance is fixed 6".
- Overwatch re-haul: you nominate that the unit is using Overwatch at the beginning of the unit's Shooting phase and it lasts until the start of its next Shooting phase. Doing anything else in the unit's own turn afterwards (like shooting/running or assaulting) cancels the Overwatch. An Overwatching units may make a shooting attack in the enemy's Shooting phase but they must fire Snap Shoots. More tactical options (you can use Overwatch to catch an enemy unit out of cover), more fun. Also, Overwatch cancels out a normal shooting, so you must use it more carefully.
- Regroup restrictions are back with a blast (so no regrouping if an enemy is within 6" or the unit is under half strength), as well as Last Man Standing tests (units reduced to a single model must take Ld tests at the start of each own turn or break).
- ATSKNF nerfed: rolls of '6' counts as '1' for Fear tests (no autopass), and even though it still allows auto-regroup (or normal regroup if restrictions apply), it only does a normal regroup and not a consequence-less regroup.
- No Retreat! wounds are back for Fearless units, but a unit cannot take more No Retreat! wounds than its model count.
- Furious Charge is back to +1S and +1I.
- Barrage and Sniper have Pinning again.
- Models in challenges cannot kill models from outside of the challenge, but "overflowing" wounds count towards the combat resolution. Similarly, other models cannot attack into challenges but they give re-rolls like in 6th edition.
- You can buy psychic powers and warlord traits or randomly generate them for free.
- Vehicles cannot explode, they are only destroyed if they lose all their Hull Points. When they are destroyed, the destruction effect is determined on the number of "extra" HPs lost over the normal volume.

And now, the special (not really rule-oriented) changes I would make:
- Leadership-value drop all across the board. Most models would have -1 Ld (a Guardsman would have Ld6 and a Space Marine would have Ld7 for example).
- Special and heavy weapons suffer a +100% cost increase. Only some of the most crapsastic weapons stay at their normal points cost (like the grenade launcher). Character weapons (like plasma pistols) are unaffected.
- Vehicles have roughly +50% HP (Rhinos would have 5 for example), but they cost +50% (Rhinos are back to 50-55 points, just like in 4th edition).
- Monstrous Creatures would cost +50%.
- Most heavy infantry (like Terminators) and specialist units (like bikers) would cost +25%. Before you ask, these points cost increases are here to counterbalance the increased rarity of special/heavy weapons.

I guess that's all.

why would you want the heavy weapons to be so expensive, as a space marine player those point increases would cripple me. i understand if you play ig or orks it would be ok (except the tanks) but any other it would decrease army size considerably. thanks

 the clone wrote:
why would you want the heavy weapons to be so expensive, as a space marine player those point increases would cripple me. i understand if you play ig or orks it would be ok (except the tanks) but any other it would decrease army size considerably. thanks

Don't forget that less heavy/special weapons mean less hurty firepower thrown towards your Space Marines. Facing 3 plasma guns is better for you than facing 6. In fact, IG would suffer the most because of their over-reliance on special/heavy weapons and the lack of durability on their weapon carriers (a guardsman wielding a 30 points gun... this can't end well). And yeah... Orks, LOL. They need something anyway .

Oh, and two things I forgot:
- The highest result on the vehicle damage table (the one replacing "Explodes!") is Chain reaction from the old Apocalypse SH damage table: -1 HP and roll again on the damage table. So with crazy rolls, you can still one-shot a vehicle.
- You can only make 1 Look Out Sir! per turn for the same character.

point taken but with good armour saves and armour it wouldnt be that good for space marines as, for example a devastator squad could become upto 70 point more expensive! you could get a scout squad for that. i like your other ideas though

 the clone wrote:
point taken but with good armour saves and armour it wouldnt be that good for space marines as, for example a devastator squad could become upto 70 point more expensive! you could get a scout squad for that.

That's the point. Instead of just blindly taking special/heavy weapons because they are pretty darn cheap anyway, you would have a tough choice: special/heavy weapons or a bulkier army?

Space marines are outnumbered anyway as they are 15 points each (excluding scouts) minimum so most space marine players would go for the numbers because other wise you have an army 1/4 the size of your opponent but then you have no heavy weapons.

p.s. which army do you play?

p.p.s. how much would you cost a thunderfire cannon, i have two and use both against orks

p.p.p.s. i play ultramarines 8000 and ig (just starting) 500

 the clone wrote:
Space marines are outnumbered anyway as they are 15 points each (excluding scouts) minimum so most space marine players would go for the numbers because other wise you have an army 1/4 the size of your opponent but then you have no heavy weapons.

Yeah, but those 15 points Space Marines would survive much longer!

 the clone wrote:

p.s. which army do you play?

IG (~15k points, mixed), SM (~6k points, mostly infantry), Tau (~3k points, mostly suits) and CSM (~2k points, Chosenwing).

 the clone wrote:

p.p.s. how much would you cost a thunderfire cannon, i have two and use both against orks

125 points because of the x1.25 multiplier for being a (light) weapon platform. But I guess you would get it back quickly from the Orks who would get more expensive all across the board (for mostly having specialist units and weapon platforms).

An Ork player comes across a Sisters of Battle Player. The Sisters of Battle are well-acquainted with the concept of martyrdom, and send forth one of their Rhinos at point-blank range to interdict the Green Tide. The Orks, charging forth, must get as many models in base-to-base with the Rhino as they can, followed by as many of their models moving within 2" of the models in base-to-base. Even after the Rhino is rendered into scrap metal, "There are no sweeping advances, no Pile Ins, and no Consolidation moves." The Sisters player proceeds to have an Ork barbeque.

Simply put, should an assault against a vehicle destroy said vehicle, the assaulting unit should be allowed to Consolidate. If the assaulted vehicle *isn't* destroyed, the assaulting unit should be able to attempt Hit & Run.

I would like to see the 4th edition sweeping advances brought back in, if you won the combat and your enemy was destroyed or fell back, you could sweep into another unit instead of just sitting in the open to be shot.

I've had it played in a few games and it's helped in certain games to bring back a bit of effectiveness for close combat troops.

Putting all movement back into the movement phase.
So players have to make in game decisions on what units are going to do at the start of the game turn.(Movement phase.)

Also using fixed maximum movement rates , rather than rolling for 'randum' movement would help.

I understand some player do not want o put the movement rate back on the stat line.

However, we could determine the movement rate based on the unit description.
EG
Slow infantry 4"
Infantry 5"
Fast infantry 6"

Walkers and tanks 6"
Fast vehicles 8"
Very fast vehicles /bikes 12"

Then in the movement phase players have the following options.
Remain stationary and shoot to full effect in the shooting phase.
Move up to movement rate, and shoot 'move and fire ' weapons in the shooting phase.
Move up to double movement rate to 'charge into assault'.(Fight assault in the assault phase.)
Move up to double movement rate, and not shoot or launch an assault.

Interesting ideas about movement there. you are right that the space marines would live longer but it still isn't worth it to price up heavy weapons, as i said earlier my two thunder fire at 125 points would total an extra 50 points! as i said earlier you could get some extra units for that even an attack bike but you would price an attack bike at about 60 point i think. if you play an army like tau (lots of special and medium heavy weapons) they would be outnumbered and so as i said earlier it would be unfair. moreover whats the point in making weapons more expensive as your opponent would have to reduce army size as well making your point about having to choose between numbers and weapons redundant.

p.s. dont take anything i say as offensive or aggressive i am just discussing

Lanrak wrote:
Putting all movement back into the movement phase.
So players have to make in game decisions on what units are going to do at the start of the game turn.(Movement phase.)

Also using fixed maximum movement rates , rather than rolling for 'randum' movement would help.

I understand some player do not want o put the movement rate back on the stat line.

However, we could determine the movement rate based on the unit description.
EG
Slow infantry 4"
Infantry 5"
Fast infantry 6"

Walkers and tanks 6"
Fast vehicles 8"
Very fast vehicles /bikes 12"

Then in the movement phase players have the following options.
Remain stationary and fore to full effect in the shooting phase.
Move up to movement rate, and shoot 'move and fire ' weapons in the shooting phase.
Move up to double movement rate to 'charge into assault'.(Fight assault in the assault phase.)
Move up to double movement rate, and not shoot or launch an assault.

Well, I don't really understand why you would want to make 40k MORE shooting focused, but this is how to do it. You wouldn't be able to shoot before assaulting with any assault weapons, and slowing down infantry makes shooting even more powerful. It's an interesting idea, but doesn't really mesh with the current rules. I guess you could make shooting with assault weapons resolve with overwatch or something. I definitely wouldn't slow down infantry at all. If anything, things like monstrous creatures need to get faster (I never really understood why a massive lumbering beast moved at the same speed as a guy walking, but tanks just zipped by - hippos move at 25 mph; for comparison Usain Bolt sprints at about 28mph).

Personally, if I could bring back a rule it'd either be that cover is now BS modifiers, or consolidation into new combats - there's really no reason that the latter hasn't been in the past 2 editions now we have overwatch.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I would be okay with assault out of deepstrike, if overwatch was done on full BS. Anything else will make the game assault only all the time.


I would actually like to see overwatch drop your initiative to 1, as the whole point in the initiative penalty for charging into cover is to represent the close range shooting of the target unit. Which is what overwatch is. So if you shoot an incoming unit you should fight at initiative 1 also, or allow the charging unit to go at normal initiative, because the target unit is not set to receive a charge, since you know, it is shooting.

not until the tau get a new codex, that would be pretty broken for tau gunlines. this is primarily ment to give terminators and mutilators who should get table time but arent because their absolutely terrible lets just leave the issue of assault marine, vet vanguard, and wyches/bloodbrides alone for a moment.

i think that if we didnt get assault from deepstrike than units that elect to overwatch cant CC at all during the first round of combat (because you cant shoot at someone while fighting them in close combat that makes no sense, using the early days of gun warfare as an example if you were charged you got to shoot but probably didnt have a chance to draw any kind of melee weapon to defend yourself, and were dead if the guy at the other side of the room made it to you with his payonet gun.) this makes overwatch much more risky and less useful, shooting units still get to shoot but your punished for it. overwatch should be a choice, not an auto-action free of penalty or drawback.

one could also simply strip out overwatch entirely

i also feel that armor saves need to be reworked entire, at this point the survivability of an ork boy with a t-shirt save versus a terminator is only marginannly better and fact is that the terminator costs 40 points, he better damn well last longer than an ork boy. one way i though about would be that anyone with an armor save better than 4+ have weapons that simply wouldnt work against them at all as opposed to everything having a chance. this would reduce them getting annihilated by cheap guns wielded by bands of dudes.