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interesting, i quite like the sound of assault out of deep strike as i am a space marine player and i love drop pods

 ionusx wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I would be okay with assault out of deepstrike, if overwatch was done on full BS. Anything else will make the game assault only all the time.


I would actually like to see overwatch drop your initiative to 1, as the whole point in the initiative penalty for charging into cover is to represent the close range shooting of the target unit. Which is what overwatch is. So if you shoot an incoming unit you should fight at initiative 1 also, or allow the charging unit to go at normal initiative, because the target unit is not set to receive a charge, since you know, it is shooting.

not until the tau get a new codex, that would be pretty broken for tau gunlines. this is primarily ment to give terminators and mutilators who should get table time but arent because their absolutely terrible lets just leave the issue of assault marine, vet vanguard, and wyches/bloodbrides alone for a moment.

i think that if we didnt get assault from deepstrike than units that elect to overwatch cant CC at all during the first round of combat (because you cant shoot at someone while fighting them in close combat that makes no sense, using the early days of gun warfare as an example if you were charged you got to shoot but probably didnt have a chance to draw any kind of melee weapon to defend yourself, and were dead if the guy at the other side of the room made it to you with his payonet gun.) this makes overwatch much more risky and less useful, shooting units still get to shoot but your punished for it. overwatch should be a choice, not an auto-action free of penalty or drawback.

one could also simply strip out overwatch entirely

i also feel that armor saves need to be reworked entire, at this point the survivability of an ork boy with a t-shirt save versus a terminator is only marginannly better and fact is that the terminator costs 40 points, he better damn well last longer than an ork boy. one way i though about would be that anyone with an armor save better than 4+ have weapons that simply wouldnt work against them at all as opposed to everything having a chance. this would reduce them getting annihilated by cheap guns wielded by bands of dudes.

I see you got my point. Shooting armies will die instantly to assault out of Deepstrike armies. ie I am not okay with assaulting from a Deepstrike. Overwatch needs a weak of some kind, but making assault the god of the game is not the way to go.

My problem with earlier game editions was that you could assault turn 1, and stay there the entire game with bouncing from one combat to the other. You also received more attacks on average per player turn, let alone game turn. The assault range was also comparable to shooting range. Yes the game has received a buff to shooting, but it was needed. The turn structure allows for an assault unit with an average of 2-3 attacks each to attack 2 times at full effect per game turn, 4-6 attacks per turn, with a range of between 8 and 24 inches. While shooting has an average range between 18 and 30 inches, it has an average of 1 attack per turn at anything beyond 21 inches, and 2 attacks per turn at 18 inches or less. Then it further gets an average of 2 attacks at a unit that charges it that require a 6 to hit. Making a ranged attack have half as many effective attacks per turn. Template weapons are the king of overwatch as they are to forgiving. What is causing the big "shooting is king" mentality is that casualties are removed from the front, and people have not updated their terrain to actually block line of sight. This omission is due to the early game having woodland terrain block line of sight, which it no longer does.

I can regularly get my Wyches into assault, and so long as I don't assault Burna Boyz, I do well. Yes assault is no longer the king of the battle field, but it isn't as useless as some like to pretend that it is.

AP is horribly fubar'd All basic weapons need it to be weekend by at least 1. That will actually make Sv of 5 and 6 worth something. Ranged weapon upgrades need to cost more.

Not a rule per se, but an option and a rule combo.

Lootas: Lootas are allowed to use the options of one of the following squad types as detailed in the army list *modified slightly to take into account new codicies*
Space Marine: Tactical squad, Devastator squad, Scout squad
Astra Militarum: Infantry squad, Heavy Weapon squad (cannot take a mortar), Special Weapons squad.
For exampl: You might choos to use the weapon options for an Astra Militarum Infantry squad for your Lootas. This would give them up to on sniper rifle, flamer, grenade launcher, meltagun, plasma gun, or demoiltion charge, and one heavy wapon which could be either a mortar, autocannon, heavy bolter, missile launcher (may also take flakk missiles) or lascannon.
Alternatively, a squad's option from any on army list may be used as long as both player's agree.

Looted Weapons: If you roll a 1 to hit with a looted weapon, a hit is scored on th unit shooting with the weapon in stead of the target. The opponent gets to roll To Wound etc. Template wapons score a single hit but do not place the template. The Ork player gets to allocate any wounds, and they don't have to b allocated to the model who fired the weapon. If a weapon does not roll To Hit, roll a D6. On a 1 resolve the shot on the Ork unit.

Bring back old wound allocation ( similar to 4th/5th) instead of closest to farthest. It makes things quicker and easier. It makes sense that someone would pick up the special weapon a fallen squad member dropped. Just add some sort of rule to prevent wound striping with squads of multi-wound models. The new way does add some tactical flexibility for the attacker, specially in a faster or mobile army.

Vanguard Veterans should be able to assault after deepstrike again (as standard). That was really the only point of the unit.

I like the idea of vanguard being able to assault after deep strike

Right so ive played since 3rd edition (had abit of a break during 5th) and personally my favourite experiences of 40k have been during 4th, 6th, and 7th. Ive played tau since the year after they were released (when they started) and play eldar and IG aswell.

That in mind, id suggest a few rules:

Overwatch should be a full BS shooting attack, but a squad must forfeit it's shooting in order to do it. Playing the armies I play in 7th overwatch is hilarious but its just unneeded. I feel almost bad rapid firing my dual plasma crisis team and deleting a terminator squad only to gun down the 1W chapter master when he attempt to make a desperate assault. Or killing enough models to put that brave assault squad that somehow made it across the board 1" out of assault range so they sit there and get butchered next turn. The game is hard for assault armies atm, and while great, overwatch is frankly too good. If it was a tradeoff that makes you miss your shooting phase it would be fine because it means everyones going to be in rapid fire range and stationary but if you fail to kill them all you might have some trouble.

Units can be pinned by overwatch: Its themactic, its tense, and it makes sense.

If turn 1 is night fight, then you should roll a d6 on turn 2, on a 1-3 turn 2 is also night fight. I feel night fighting is an interesting little bit of the game thats never properly capitalised upon and just builds onto the "alpha strike" mentality that 40k is currently in (as mentioned earlier)

Challenges need to be reworked. Either remove them or maybe make it that if the enemy declines you get +1ld that round? Its ridiculous that armies and characters who wouldnt give a gak about an opponent shouting "1v1 on rust bro!" are affected by this silly rule.

Id like to increase all vehicle hullpoints by +1 but also increase the damage chart by +1, right now, dedicated AT weapons (lascannons, brightlance, railgun, missile launchers, darklance etc) are worse at killing vehicles than lower strength high RoF weapons. Imo a high strength AP1 weapon that penetrates a tank has all rights to kill it on a 4+, thats its purpose.

Remove random charge distance. 12" for bikes and Jump squads if they use packs in assault phase, 12" for cavalry/beasts. 6" for pretty much anything else. Random charge distance adds nothing to the game. Allow fleet units to reroll run distance OR charge after running.


Also as stated earlier if somehow the "alpha strike/Turn 1-2 EVERYONE DIES" aspect of the game could be toned down that would be pretty cool. I think its to do with how cheap everything is now tbh or maybe just because of the easier access to tons of heavy weaponry that previously was alot more expensive/difficult to get. Unsure how to properly resolve it though without breaking everything worse

oh and also I wish they'd reintroduce paying for grenades. Ok space marines having frag krak standard is fine. Theyre elite all rounders they should all be armed and ready but the fact the basic guardsman comes with frag grenades that frankly he doesnt really need is abit like wuut? It also makes it more apparent when somehow the only people who dont have assault grenades anymore are the troops who are SUPPOSED to be dedicated assault troops. Yeah my 10 conscripts can charge those fire warriors and hit them at initiative, but those incubi who train all their life for brutal close combat? no thankyou sir no plasma grenades here.

Bobug wrote:

oh and also I wish they'd reintroduce paying for grenades. Ok space marines having frag krak standard is fine. Theyre elite all rounders they should all be armed and ready but the fact the basic guardsman comes with frag grenades that frankly he doesnt really need is abit like wuut? It also makes it more apparent when somehow the only people who dont have assault grenades anymore are the troops who are SUPPOSED to be dedicated assault troops. Yeah my 10 conscripts can charge those fire warriors and hit them at initiative, but those incubi who train all their life for brutal close combat? no thankyou sir no plasma grenades here.

Rather than just making people pay for grenades, I think they might need to separate the rules for throwing them in the shooting phase and the special rule they grant when you are charging/charged. If I recall, grenades used to only grant you full init. on the charge or whatever the other ones gave you - but then they thought "Well it's kind of silly that you can't throw them as weapons!" and they added rules to do that. Which makes it silly in one sense, but reasonable in another. For example, Incubi wouldn't carry grenades. They're heavily armored full-melee troops. The only reason they would bring grenades is for the init. bonus. On the other hand, it make sense for conscripts to have grenades, as that's a standard infantry loadout. But they don't really need the initiative bonus.

Nuadhu Fireheart. Also Vect on the Dais, but with the chariot rules this time.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nuadhu Fireheart. Also Vect on the Dais, but with the chariot rules this time.

Oh man I completely forgot about all the DE special characters that were nixed. I'd really like to see those again, especially Duke Sliscus, for Wych lists.

sounds good, i am not a fan of night fight rule but i like the idea about over watch