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So I got convinced to play a couple of intro games of STAW and instantly loved it.

I play X Wing a lot, but I found STAW to be more engrossing with the different ships and load outs - far more than X Wing.

I went halves on the box with the guy who introduced me to it (he just wanted the Galaxy Class and Warbird to fill his fleets) and I set about choosing a fleet.

Every fleet at my FLGS is represented except one and you could tell this from the models on the shelves. There was barely enough models to make a nice fleet of any faction... Except BORG!!!

I bought one of every Borg ship and the other players were not happy.

Are Borg OP?

I'm a huge fan of the Borg, they are by far my favourite race from Star Trek, if they are really good, why am I the only person who has bought a fleet of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I'm also staying fleet pure.

That's what everyone plays here.

Puscifer wrote:

Every fleet at my FLGS is represented except one and you could tell this from the models on the shelves. There was barely enough models to make a nice fleet of any faction... Except BORG!!!

I bought one of every Borg ship and the other players were not happy.

Are Borg OP?

I'm a huge fan of the Borg, they are by far my favourite race from Star Trek, if they are really good, why am I the only person who has bought a fleet of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I'm also staying fleet pure.

That's what everyone plays here.

Fleet pure alleviates the problem somewhat, and in that I mean from insanely OP to majorly OP (esp if everyone else is also fleet p). The movement of borg and the firing arc, basically borg ships have very big and unrestricted movement (no slow turning arcs, they move like the queen on a chess board) and can shoot their large amount of attack dice in 360 arcs instead of the 90 arcs of most ships... It breaks the game.

Though some other factions have access to 360 arcs, they are limited to range 2. For some stupid reason the Borg were not. Basically it means that no matter what you do, if you are able to shoot at the Borg then they are able to shoot you.
They can outmaneuver opponents so easily by virtue of all the green and white side and reverse moves.
They get insane numbers of attack dice which can be re-rolled without needing a target lock (Tactical Drone)

Borg being the only faction (of those with 4+ ships) completely on shelves seems to happen a lot. It seems to me that more ships in Attack Wing probably should have had Omnidirectional firing capability, or at least the 180 degree arcs should have been much more common. Borg are extremely fun to play though, even in Fleet Pure where you can't stack Picard or Dukat on ships for free Battle Stations each turn. They capture the essence of what they were in the TNG appearances pretty well, though I imagine that many would rather they function more like they did in Voyager where blowing up cubes was no big deal.

I still think Fed ships should have 180 degree arcs to the front with primary and 45to the front with secondary and only 45 to the back.

That is how they are in the shows and films.

Also... Jemhadar ships are woefully underpowered, IMO.

Jemhadar battlecruisers are amazing ships

 emperorpenguin wrote:
Jemhadar battlecruisers are amazing ships

QFT.
Borg are much better in (a) revised format and (b) faction pure. But they're still scarily powerful, and suffer from classic WizKids power creep. Most folk only play them either in uber-competitive or casual fun, as they kinda suck they joy out of the game for everyone else. Certainly, my FLGS actively discourages folk from buying them as they like to preserve a friendly meta.

Ironically, the Big Bad Borg Cube isn't especially good...

Nothing new to add here really, everyone else hit on the reasons Borg are a bit skewed not OP in my opinion but very skewed. Certian factions do have cards that can hurt them. Out of curioustiy, since your area plays faction Pure, are you using the suggested build 120 points, 3 ships, max 50 (52-54 for a tactical cube)? It really evens things out a bit more.

If your area is still playing dreadnoughts you'll find a couple of federation builds can pretty much smack the Borg around. maybe not 100% but still a very high win ratio.

Voyager and to a lesser extent Ent-E, there is enough amazing Fed crew that make it viable.

Short story, not sure if I mentioned this here or on Boardgame Geek (sorry for sharing again if you all saw this before), but in my local area Borg Dreadnoughts became the easy button and quickiy dominiated, to 100% wins on all events. After a few more ships came out Federation super dreads became viable and started to shut down Borg winning more offten than not....needless to say it upset the Borg guys, but I and another keep playing them to make a point with the Borg guys. One event it quickly became Picard/Voyager vs the Borg. There was nothing else being played,very little variation. At that point we agreed to make a few changes. Luckily a couple months later the suggested build came out and everyone except one WAAC player loved the new balance.

Good Luck

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:
Nothing new to add here really, everyone else hit on the reasons Borg are a bit skewed not OP in my opinion but very skewed. Certian factions do have cards that can hurt them. Out of curioustiy, since your area plays faction Pure, are you using the suggested build 120 points, 3 ships, max 50 (52-54 for a tactical cube)? It really evens things out a bit more.

Yeah, it's 120 points, 3 ship minimum with the 50 limit (little bit extra for the Cube and the Octohedron) and 90 for the OP.

Having trouble getting a build I like to 90 and 120.

Even in ship pure, the Borg can be a terrifying fleet to face.

You really have to know how to play and have the right ships/upgrades to take on the Borg. Their maneuver dial, 360 attack, and yes, even some of their upgrade cards make them OP in just about any format. The Borg broke the game in my opinion, and the new "suggested tournament format" might have reined them in a little, but not as much as they should have. All it did was take away a lot of the builds other races had that could take on the Borg.

Playing ship pure or fleet pure with the new format does about as much as Wizkids can possibly do to limit the Borg without out right banning them (which I am all in favor of).

 Tamwulf wrote:
Playing ship pure or fleet pure with the new format does about as much as Wizkids can possibly do to limit the Borg without out right banning them (which I am all in favor of).

I'd be all for it, too, but I honestly can't think of anything that WizKids has ever outright banned in the past.

yeah.... as someone who was initially in the camp of borg being not tooooo op...

as more time has gone by, I find myself changing my opinion on that.

THey are really OP, and they are not fun to play against or with as they literally take the two most important things (movement and fireing arc) out of the game completely....

it just takes so little skill to use ships that have no movement consequences for bad choices, you dont bump, you can go any direction, it takes no skill or planning as you can always just go the other way.

fireing arcs should take some planning or skill to line up or stay out of... you cannot get out of the borgs arc no matter how well you fly, or how much they screw up.

I haven't posted in awhile, mainly cause I made everyone here mad which I am sorry for :( anyway onwards

I am also one of the ones that was advocating borg, but seeing as how me playing them drove off our player base around my local shop, even with the suggested rules, they Def need something else to hurt them. Maybe when some more of the stuff like flagship cards rotate out it'll help some too

You know we were talking about this at the shop the other day and came to the conclusion that the whole game could be better if all primary weapons were limited to range 1-2. It would help 2 things, the borg would be slightly toned down and 90% of secondary weapons would be worth their points. It also wouldn't require any cards to be rewritten, just the rulebook updated.

That is pretty interesting, might have to see if the guys would give thst a shot, if we do I'll let ya know how it works out

Vakruz wrote:
That is pretty interesting, might have to see if the guys would give thst a shot, if we do I'll let ya know how it works out

I think its worth play testing, even if it is to just bring the borg more into casual games. As they are and with no restrictions they are just OP. The guys I play with have grown tired of them. Nobody has played any borg ships since RiF 1.

I wish none of my group played Borg, they're getting more popular as they're the only way to win :-(

 emperorpenguin wrote:
I wish none of my group played Borg, they're getting more popular as they're the only way to win :-(

So they're the new Kindom Come Superman?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 emperorpenguin wrote:
I wish none of my group played Borg, they're getting more popular as they're the only way to win :-(

So they're the new Kindom Come Superman?

The Borg have been winning since the first Tactical Cube came out in April 2014. Each new Borg release has only added to the Borg stomping everyone except other Borg players.

Every OP we've had since Tholian Web (when we didn't allow them) has been won by Borg

That's Arena, First Contact, Sector 001 and Dark Frontier

In my meta, we started the first OP Dominion War last August. We had a Gentleman's Agreement that no one would play Borg. Well, a couple new players showed up around OP 3, and demanded to be allowed to play Borg (they threatened to call Wizkids, get the LGS owner involved, etc. etc. ) rather then deal with all that drama and crap, we let them play Borg. Since then, we have ran the entire Dom War, Rif, Episodes, and Collective OP's. In every single one except one OP, it was a Borg player that won. The only one that a Borg player didn't win was to a Klingon Fleet with multiple Dispersion Fields and a horde of ships with Martok and Galron (it was insane how many attack dice each ship was throwing). That player tried it again at the next OP and was shut down by Borg Mines and a Tactical Cube just running over it again and again and again until all his ships were destroyed.

Really, the Borg have ruined the game. I still play, but I refuse to play against the Borg unless it's a FLGS scenario game we make up or an OP. Casual, fun play? No way.

Stupid Borg. Why Wizkids? Why?

Because Wizkids. Similar matters have cropped up in every game they have put out.

I haven't used my Borg yet, having trouble getting a good build that I like. There's also very few tactics pages on the Borg.

Should I feel bad for choosing them as my fleet?

Should I go for a different fleet?

Puscifer wrote:
I haven't used my Borg yet, having trouble getting a good build that I like. There's also very few tactics pages on the Borg.

Should I feel bad for choosing them as my fleet?

Should I go for a different fleet?

There are few tactics pages on borg because they're plug and play.

Feel bad about playing them if noone else does.

Go for a different fleet if noone else plays them.

Because you'll be winning all over the place by basically playing a faction that breaks all other factions by playing a different game.

'Hey, we're all playing demolition derby with used cars!'

'That's great, I'll bring my Challenger Tank!'

'Oh...'

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I haven't used my Borg yet, having trouble getting a good build that I like. There's also very few tactics pages on the Borg.

Should I feel bad for choosing them as my fleet?

Should I go for a different fleet?

There are few tactics pages on borg because they're plug and play.

Feel bad about playing them if noone else does.

Go for a different fleet if noone else plays them.

Because you'll be winning all over the place by basically playing a faction that breaks all other factions by playing a different game.

'Hey, we're all playing demolition derby with used cars!'

'That's great, I'll bring my Challenger Tank!'

'Oh...'

Yeesh. It's actually that bad?

I feel bad just figuring out a combo for them. Fleet pure of course.

Puscifer wrote:
I haven't used my Borg yet, having trouble getting a good build that I like. There's also very few tactics pages on the Borg.

Should I feel bad for choosing them as my fleet?

Should I go for a different fleet?

Look, you're playing a fleet that ignores ALL THE RULES that make Star Trek Attack Wing a game. You can spin 90 degrees and move 3-4 without getting an Aux Power Token. Your weapons have a 360 degree firing arc- you never have to worry about maneuvering your Borg ship to get into your firing arc- the enemy ships are always in your firing arc. Make a bad spin and turn away from your opponent? No big deal. You can still shoot at him. Let's say you "accidentally" bump into a ship. No big deal. You still get your action. You have upgrades that only Borg can take- no one else even in a "anything goes format".

There is no tactics for Borg besides fly straight at the enemy fleet and shoot them. When they go past you, spin around and stay in their back arc for the rest of the game and continue shooting them. Or just maneuver out of their firing arc and continue to shoot them. There are no other ships in the game right now that can do that without paying double the Fleet Points for what a Tactical Cube can do.

I'm not telling you to not play Borg, but people play games to have fun, and maybe the challenge of playing a difficult game or against a difficult opponent. Borg are the Easy Button to Win in STAW. They take no skill, no strategy, no tactics to play them. After you stomp your opponents a few times, you will notice that they are not having fun playing, and maybe or maybe not you'll feel bad. I don't know. But you'll notice when people refuse to play you when you say "I'm playing Borg". In OP's, I don't even bother setting my stuff up. I just sign my opponents Fleet Record Sheet and give him a win when he is playing Borg.

Yes, the Borg are that bad. Or that good if you are a WAAC player.

As long as they play by different rules, you could always try playing with a lower point fleet than your opponents. The ships are too cheap for what they do, so it might be closer to balancing them.

I'm definitely not a WAAC player. I just picked Borg up as they are my favourite Trek bad guys and they were the only faction on the shelf that had a decent selection of ships.

I'm trying to fit in two Scout Cubes and one other ship without trying to be a WAAC player. Unless that's considered to be a dick move, then I'll just go with a different fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok... I failed at getting a good three ship build, but I found an ok combo:

Queen Vessel Prime [Queen Vessel Prime Expansion]
Tactical Drone [Sphere]
Subspace Beacon [Scout Cube Expansion]
Total (50)

Borg Sphere 4270 [Sphere]
Drone [Cube]
Total (40)

That's for the OP event.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Testing vs:

I.K.S. Maht-H'A [Starter]
Gowron [I.K.S. Negh'var Expansion]
Bu'Kah [Somraw]
Konmel [Starter]
Advanced Weapon System [Koraga]
Photon Torpedoes (Vor'cha Bonus) [Starter]
Total (50)

Vor'cha Class [Starter]
Nu'Daq [Starter]
Klag [Starter]
Advanced Weapon System [Koraga]
Photon Torpedoes (Vor'cha Bonus) [Starter]
Total (40)

Fleet total: 90

I bought one of every Borg ship and the other players were not happy.

I'm a huge fan of the Borg, they are by far my favourite race from Star Trek, if they are really good, why am I the only person who has bought a fleet of them?

Oh, I'm also staying fleet pure.

So you are deliberately trying to tone them down, but not too much as you're taking a sphere and the borg queen diamond. Take a couple of soongs and see the difference.

You're the only person who's bringing a fleet of them to the event.

Other people are already not happy about it, so even when you win, it will be ascribed to the faction, not to you. When you lose people will think you're a total halfwit because you're losing with the auto-win army that broke the game.

You're staying fleet pure, this might temper the borg a bit in a non-pure gaming group, in a gaming group where everyone plays fleet pure, everyone else suffers that handicap and you're still more powerful than them by a lightyear.

I don't think you're going to make friends bringing them to this event. Up to you if you don't care about that, but given how many clubs and shops have just come to a gentleman's agreement about using them at all, followed with the answers you got here, it's up to you to make a decision...

Ok... I failed at getting a good three ship build, but I found an ok combo:

Queen Vessel Prime [Queen Vessel Prime Expansion]
Tactical Drone [Sphere]
Subspace Beacon [Scout Cube Expansion]
Total (50)

Borg Sphere 4270 [Sphere]
Drone [Cube]
Total (40)

Oh hey! Look at that! Bringing two ships with a combined 14 shields and 15 hull! And you'll be throwing at least 14 attack dice every turn in any direction. Some shooting phases, you'll be throwing 16 attack dice at range one with a scan token. And you can't see how over powered that is? Really? /disgust

Have fun winning your tournament!