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My first guess is that Europeans aren't trying as hard.

Conceptually, the BA codex is actually quite good. But they just have marine malaise. Marines are subpar without using very specific builds that BA don't have access to.

And now we are just a turkey shoot for the scatbikes. It's 2nd ed all over again.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It is debatable which one of us is more delusional about the BA codex's power level.

But by all means have pride in our taxi status.

The taxi comment was meant to be a joke. And I am not delusional about the codex's power level. I am well aware we are not top tier, and that we have performed rather poorly in the states as a main detachment. But as the European rankings showed (which had Eldar, Nids, and Orks at the top in that order, and Marines, BA, and Wolves in the middle in that order) showed, we are definitely not the worst codex either.

And if you notice a common trend in allied BA detachments, the other half of the reason to take BA is our psykers and sanguinary priests, so that's something.

Edit: I'm actually trying to find the website that had all this information so I can actually cite my source and not seem like I'm pulling information out of my a$$

I would be very interested if someone found the key to making BAs good. I don't play in a very competitive meta, but since 6th ed. my win/loss rate is in the basement. So I am a bit demoralized at this point. And to be honest, I hate the taxi thing. The BAs deserve better.

Well, I managed to beat eldar today, pretty easily actually. Granted, the list wasn't amazing, but according to the interwebz it should be impossible, lol. His list was made from a few of the formations or whatever? I don't know exactly but here's an approximation.

Yriel
Farseer lvl3
Autarch with power sword and fusion gun

3x10 guardians with weapons platforms in Wave Serpents
3x5 dire avengers in the avenger shrine, all in deep striking falcons
1 warwalker with 2x missiles
2 vypers with shuriken cannons

My list.

Dante

Priest with Valour's edge, jump pack, bolt pistol

2x10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists each
5x sanguinary guard with banner, inferno pistol, 1 fist

2x6 scouts with shanks and combi melta

5x bikes with 2x grav+combi
2 stormravens

Dawn of war deployment, 5 objectives, I won 3 objectives to non with dante and his whole unit untouched, both ravens, 2 bikes and 5 death co. He had a warwalker and 4 fleeing guardians left.

Hyperbole aside, Having a powerful codex doesn't keep you from being incompetent. The Players at the top and the bottom probably won't be that effected by the Eldar's power scale. It is the players in the middle that will get the most benefit and probably the most hate.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Well, I managed to beat eldar today, pretty easily actually. Granted, the list wasn't amazing, but according to the interwebz it should be impossible, lol. His list was made from a few of the formations or whatever? I don't know exactly but here's an approximation.

Yriel
Farseer lvl3
Autarch with power sword and fusion gun

3x10 guardians with weapons platforms in Wave Serpents
3x5 dire avengers in the avenger shrine, all in deep striking falcons
1 warwalker with 2x missiles
2 vypers with shuriken cannons

My list.

Dante

Priest with Valour's edge, jump pack, bolt pistol

2x10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists each
5x sanguinary guard with banner, inferno pistol, 1 fist

2x6 scouts with shanks and combi melta

5x bikes with 2x grav+combi
2 stormravens

Dawn of war deployment, 5 objectives, I won 3 objectives to non with dante and his whole unit untouched, both ravens, 2 bikes and 5 death co. He had a warwalker and 4 fleeing guardians left.

Not trying to downplay your victory or anything, but that may be the tamest eldar list I've seen since the book came out.

Oh I'm fully aware of how tame the list was. But it was a fairly easy victory on my part, and the way some people talk about Blood Angels on these forums you'd think that the best BA list vs the worst eldar list would still be an uphill fight for the angels.

Also, I hate the double standard that's happening here. Oh, a "top tier" army beat a "low tier army"? That's just the way the game works. But if the "low tier" army wins? Well the other player must have been bad. There's no other way.

I am by no means saying that eldar are not strong, or not stronger than BA. They are. But maybe the matchup isn't nearly as hopeless as many believe it to be.

It's looking at the top end vs casual. You played a mid-high end [for BA] list, while your opponent played a seemingly mid-low list [for Eldar].

The comparison isn't between whether or not a crappy Eldar list piloted by a mediocre player can do to a "tuned" BA list piloted by a master. The comparison is between a high end Eldar list vs a high end BA list, both piloted by skilled players. In that case, the power level of the Eldar 'dex, coupled with the skew that 7th puts on the game, puts BA at a [reasonably] perceived disadvantage in that contest.

Mobility is the key to victory in 7th, being tough comes next, shooty after that and CC potential. BA aren't as mobile as Scars, or EJB, or Biker Orks, unless they're rocking Bikes themselves. Bikes are tougher than JP troops, for precious little more points. They're Shootier than JP troops, given the relentless option, and in CC they're more or less on even footing after you work in the guaranteed HOW hits even if they move 12" in the movement phase.

So the double standard doesn't exist in this case. We have a specific list vs specific list, instead of a General Notion vs General Notion.

after a couple of week i've finally played eldar. Iwas the only person yesterday who wanted to play the guy, he was about to go home when I turned up.

anyway I didn't scribble his list down but basically it was

Jain Zar with 5 banshees in a WS
5 wraithguard D-scythe in WS
Guardians, brightlance + warlock
2 x 5man scatter laser windriders
2x Hornet with 2 pulse laser
3 wraithlords with glaives
Avatar

i rolled with a list ive been playing with for a while and like to play (not always with success but its fun)

BSF
Term Lib lvl2 ss, VE - biomancy (end & life leach)
Lib dread lvl1 in DP - Sang (fear)
6man DC, JP 1 pf
Terminator AS all hammers
scouts, snipers sat on coms relay
2x 5man heavy flamer combi plasma tacs in pods

GK NSF
Lib (hammerhand, sanc) Goes with BA term+lib
5man terminator squad with halberts
2 NDK, swords, heavy psy and teleporters

Basically I deepstrike everything turn 1 and 2, ended up lucky with powers and had 2++ terminators with a 4+ fnp. podded the lib dread near the 2 NDK and cast quickening on one and it went to town. i really love this combo.

this game the alpha worked well, its a horrible combo when it works well as he didnt know what to go for first.
game was called turn 4 when he only had 3 bikes boosting around to stay away from me and 1 wraithlord who was about to get charged by a pumped up NDK. I didnt have much left other than 3 terminatos my 2 lib, 1 ndk, lib dread about 3 marines hiding and 4 DC chasing the bikes

Lessons learnt -
Banshees are much better and their HQ is nasty.
D-templates vs a melee army hurt until i got my 2++ terminators in combat with them.
jetbikes are still a pain in the arse, couldn't catch them easily and s6 ends up with a lot of wounds. fear of darkness did get rid of a squad on turn 1 though lol : )
I hate hornets with pulse (look sexy though...bastards)

I played a bit of a dick list but getting in their faces worked for me this time, not sure he expected it when he saw only 3 pods and, heavy flamers were nice vs guardians. if he had run a wraithknight over the avatar i think i would have struggled. was fun and im not as worried about eldar now

Seems like a pretty lopsided game. Though i really like your list.

Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers

I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

 th3maninblak wrote:
Seems like a pretty lopsided game. Though i really like your list.

Thanks and yes it was very one sided, his deployment wasn't brilliant which helped massively. Think he underestimated how much of my force was coming down turn 1 and was a little over confidant about playing eldar with d templates and bikes

its a very amusing list to play and have some room for flexability. I don't normally use a lib dread but wantesd to use the model. The weakness of this version was clearly air but prev I've run it with karlaen and gone quad gun instead of coms and made the term.lib go sang to buff the dreads





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

I love meph but only had limited success with him so far, be excels with ss th terminators as they counter his weakness of no inv. This gets bloody extensive though but rolling bio and getting endurance and iron arm makes for a very good combat unit if you can get them there.

Had him with dc which was ok but jp and astrath is better

Command squad worked ok with a couple of ss to take plasma shots

Personally I just use him.with terminators in bigger games, many people will.say run him with div with sternguard which is ok but imo meph is a warrior and should go biomancy and wreck face not sprinkle magic dust on people and stay back

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

I struggled with this for a while too, and I found the command squad to be the perfect place for him. I run it with 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields in a drop pod, which comes out to just shy of 200 points. You dont need a bunch of CC monsters with him, as he already beats the tar out of anything with power armor or worse. With t5, artificer armor and feel no pain he tanks missiles and small arms fire like a champ, and can pass of plasma wounds to everyone else. Plus, the champion is actually a huge boon in the unit as opposed to a deficit. He can intercept challenges for Mephy and can actually win them vs sgts, exarchs, nobz, etc.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

I struggled with this for a while too, and I found the command squad to be the perfect place for him. I run it with 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields in a drop pod, which comes out to just shy of 200 points. You dont need a bunch of CC monsters with him, as he already beats the tar out of anything with power armor or worse. With t5, artificer armor and feel no pain he tanks missiles and small arms fire like a champ, and can pass of plasma wounds to everyone else. Plus, the champion is actually a huge boon in the unit as opposed to a deficit. He can intercept challenges for Mephy and can actually win them vs sgts, exarchs, nobz, etc.

My Command Squad has Jump Packs, but I guess I could stick them all in my Stormraven and drop them off. Seems a waste of Jump Packs though. This is only a problem with the Meph lists, the Command Squad runs just fine with a Dante list (though they don't run with him, he runs with a Sanguinary Priest and a squad of Sanguinary Guard).

On a side note, I really wish BAs Land Raiders still had Deep Strike (like anyone actually used it) so I could buy the Legacy of Glory for the Dropsite Massacre. Just for the hell of it.

Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers

Personally, I agree with your thinking on minimising troops costs and focusing on elites, as most of BA's best stuff lies there. I believe that alot of people might agree with me on this, as many on here also like to use 5 man ccw scouts just to fill out the troops tax.

InsTincT_OP wrote:

Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers

Personally, I agree with your thinking on minimising troops costs and focusing on elites, as most of BA's best stuff lies there. I believe that alot of people might agree with me on this, as many on here also like to use 5 man ccw scouts just to fill out the troops tax.

I generally use 5 man squads more than 10 but depends on the balance of my force and what i want to achieve with them and also how I deliver them.

Also with allies i find i get more bang per points from a command squad with LC and vox sat along side vets with the same in a building than tank commanders. Pask in a punisher is fun, in vanquisher is good vs mech but 2 ignore cover LC each turn for much much les points is excellent backup to a melee army like BA. stick them on a quad gun you also have ignore cover anti air.

that said i do like the odd game with 6 russ as allies to make an armoured line with fast vindicators down the flanks

Does anyone think that Baal preds might be a thing again with the scat bikes running around?

Martel732 wrote:
Does anyone think that Baal preds might be a thing again with the scat bikes running around?

I hadn't thought about it, but maybe. With less wave serpents a dakka platform that wounds on 3s or 2s and doesnt care if they jink might be worthwhile. The short range and low side armor is still an issue, though. But if you could protect the sides, all that str6 does nothing against the front arc.

I can't imagine so. Paying 115/135 points just to get some 4 s6 tl shots (and some HB shots) seems bad, and there's no way to make it there with the flame cannon without dying. It's very hard to justify not paying like 5 more points for a 5 man jump DC unit with a fist, or UNspending 30 points for a dakka pred that's still oc engine.

Baal preds really need some discounting. Maybe potms to make heavy flamer sponsons not a silly option to take, also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh. By running a cad, ft detachment, and BSF all together, you could spam a line of 9 dakka preds (Autocannon/heavy bolters and oc engine on all) for a little over 900. Probably close to 1600 after filling the necessary 5 troops, 1 elite, 1 FA, and 3 hq's for that. You could have 3 techmarines hiding behind the wall of AV 13 fixing things, or maybe divvy libbies. Not sure how to best compliment them with the rest of the list. Maybe a bunch of outflanking cc scouts with jump DC and asm?

The Flamestorm plus HF version would be good if it had Scout somehow. The Baal Pred isn't mobile enough to make a difference. One option would be to run some squads of twin-Heavy Flamer Land Speeders and deep strike them in an army with Dante. Throwing down six templates is sure to toast some stupid jetbikes.

Edit: It's gak like Scatterbikes that make me think that BA should have Descent of Angels default and Dante should have the benefits of Angel's Wing. And the Baal Pred should have scout and Land Raiders should have deep strike and gain the benefits from DoA.

Yeah i have no idea why they took scout away from the Baal pred. Its one of the things that made it worth the cost last book. 135 with asscan and bolters and scout would be pretty slick.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Yeah i have no idea why they took scout away from the Baal pred. Its one of the things that made it worth the cost last book. 135 with asscan and bolters and scout would be pretty slick.

Yup. As of right now it is too prone to being blown up before it can do anything useful. Being able to Outflank is absolutely necessary in order to get it in place. I would have been fine with a Formation that grants Scout to Baal Preds. Call it the Angel's Armored Column Formation, have it require three tanks with Overchanged Engines. The tanks gain Scout and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question: Should I use Grav-guns or Meltaguns for a Command Squad? I plan on running a triple Melta Assault Squad as well. I am running the Command Squad with Jump Packs.

Thanks for the tips mates! Also, what's the general consensus on bikes? Was thinking of taking them with a sang priest and using their fast shootyness combined with jump pack death Co.

Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

 th3maninblak wrote:
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.

Actually yes, particularly since our librarians have access to Prescience. Though this strategy worked better when we could take 4 specials in our command squads.

I'm definitely liking the command squad, though. Yeah, we cant customize the champion or apothecary, but we get them for free. And a ws5 init5 str5 dude on the charge with 4 ap3 attacks can actually drag down some people in a challenge.

Prescience with a Sternguard squad actually makes the AP 3 ammo useful. Like against.... scatbikes.

I have shied away for the command squad, but maybe I should look at it again.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.

Actually yes, particularly since our librarians have access to Prescience. Though this strategy worked better when we could take 4 specials in our command squads.

I'm definitely liking the command squad, though. Yeah, we cant customize the champion or apothecary, but we get them for free. And a ws5 init5 str5 dude on the charge with 4 ap3 attacks can actually drag down some people in a challenge.

If I didn't have to take the stupid Champion and could customize the Apothecary, I would be all over running Plasma. But having a close combat character in a long range squad just doesn't work. Melta is still useful anyway, even against non-vehicles. Str 8 works well enough. But having Assault will help the squad out. Still, a mobile Melta platform will get the job done well. PLUS, it is fifteen fewer points. And they are vets, so they get A2 base, so an additional on the charge and HoW. Other stuff will have to deal with 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Prescience with a Sternguard squad actually makes the AP 3 ammo useful. Like against.... scatbikes.

I have shied away for the command squad, but maybe I should look at it again.

BA Command Squads aren't as good as C:SM squads due to not being able to take 4x Special Weapons. Also, a Bike Command Squad is better than a Jump Command Squad or Drop Command Squad. I still like them, though.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.

Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?

Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.