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I am looking to make use of a Stormraven(with locator beacon) in my deep strike-focused army. My question is if using the Stormraven as a transport for a Tactical Squad and Furioso Dreadnought is at all a good idea. I am afraid it will get shot down, which would make a mess of its contents. The list I am thinking of running is as follows. I admit it isn't the most competitive.

HQ
Captain Karlaen (will DS with the Assault Terminators)
Sanguinary Priest w/Angel's Wing (will DS with the Sanguinary Guard)

Elite
Death Company Squad w/PF, 2x PS and JPs
Sanguinary Guard w/3x Sword, 1x Axe, 1x PF (will DS with the Priest)
Furioso Dreadnought w/ Melta and SB (will ride on the SR)
Assault Terminators w/6x THSS, 4x LC (will DS with Karlaen)

Troops
Scout Squad w/Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks
Tactical Squad w/ CF, F, HF (ride in SR)

Heavy Support
Trilas Predator with OC engines
SR w/TLMM, TLAsC, Locator Beacon

I also have two squads of Assault Marines with 2x Meltagun, Cassor the Damned, a VV Squad, and a Librarian with Jump Pack.

So, since Cassor the Damned is a Character, could you, theoretically, make him your Warlord? If so, would he be any good as one? Getting him Rampage would pretty useful, as it would turn him into a blender. Speed of the Primarch coupled with the +1I from Baal Strike Force would make difficult to deal with as well. For the most part, all of the Warlord Traits would benefit him pretty well.

Of course, another option is to pair him with a Librarian with the Sanguinary Discipline and spam Quickening on him. I am just trying to find a good use for the model of him that I built (should have built a Furioso, but too late now).

Remtek wrote:
Could be fun, but you are giving up slay the warlord and you can't take strategic trait which are two huge drawbacks.

Why would you give up either of those things? He is a character so he would gain the Warlord Trait, and if one wanted to, they could roll on the Strategic table rather than the BA table. Also, since he is a character, Slay the Warlord would still be in effect. The only major drawback from choosing Cassor is that one would need an HQ as well. And since stuff like the Librarian or Sanguinary Priest are cheap and quite good, it isn't that much of a drawback. Of one uses the Flesh Tearer Strike Force, one would only need to select Fast Attack at that point.

Is this Death Company loadout competitive?

10x Death Company Marines
-Jump Packs
-8x BP/CCW
-2x Boltgun/PF

Martel732 wrote:
That's basically what I use, except I don't bother with the bolters.

I just figure, why not? They miss out on an attack due to Specialist weapon, so might as well let them fire a couple extra bolter shots. I initially did 10x DC w/PF, 2xPS but now I realize that PS just aren't worth the points versus a PF that can actually harm something. My old unit used to cost 285 pts, this new setup costs 280 pts so I save a Melta Bomb.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's basically what I use, except I don't bother with the bolters.

I just figure, why not? They miss out on an attack due to Specialist weapon, so might as well let them fire a couple extra bolter shots. I initially did 10x DC w/PF, 2xPS but now I realize that PS just aren't worth the points versus a PF that can actually harm something. My old unit used to cost 285 pts, this new setup costs 280 pts so I save a Melta Bomb.

No real reason. I just hate bolters and don't want to change my models.

Ah. No problem. A stylistic choice is reasonable. I haven't built the second half of my DC yet, so this change is actually quite simple.

Remtek wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Remtek wrote:
Could be fun, but you are giving up slay the warlord and you can't take strategic trait which are two huge drawbacks.

Why would you give up either of those things? He is a character so he would gain the Warlord Trait, and if one wanted to, they could roll on the Strategic table rather than the BA table. Also, since he is a character, Slay the Warlord would still be in effect. The only major drawback from choosing Cassor is that one would need an HQ as well. And since stuff like the Librarian or Sanguinary Priest are cheap and quite good, it isn't that much of a drawback. Of one uses the Flesh Tearer Strike Force, one would only need to select Fast Attack at that point.

I meant if you make him your warlord it's very easy for opponent to get slay the warlord.

That is certainly true. A lucky lascannon shot could, potentially, blow him to bits. It would be fun in a casual game, though.

 th3maninblak wrote:
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?

I will admit that I was a little confused when I first read the list until the numbers started lining up. It is hilarious how insane that Detachment can get. And they haven't even gotten to the Elites yet. One could actually field the Blood Angels Parking Lot pretty easy with that list.

I think it is crap that the Assault Squads can't get Razorbacks at a discount anymore.

I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.

My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?

I struggled with this for a while too, and I found the command squad to be the perfect place for him. I run it with 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields in a drop pod, which comes out to just shy of 200 points. You dont need a bunch of CC monsters with him, as he already beats the tar out of anything with power armor or worse. With t5, artificer armor and feel no pain he tanks missiles and small arms fire like a champ, and can pass of plasma wounds to everyone else. Plus, the champion is actually a huge boon in the unit as opposed to a deficit. He can intercept challenges for Mephy and can actually win them vs sgts, exarchs, nobz, etc.

My Command Squad has Jump Packs, but I guess I could stick them all in my Stormraven and drop them off. Seems a waste of Jump Packs though. This is only a problem with the Meph lists, the Command Squad runs just fine with a Dante list (though they don't run with him, he runs with a Sanguinary Priest and a squad of Sanguinary Guard).

On a side note, I really wish BAs Land Raiders still had Deep Strike (like anyone actually used it) so I could buy the Legacy of Glory for the Dropsite Massacre. Just for the hell of it.

The Flamestorm plus HF version would be good if it had Scout somehow. The Baal Pred isn't mobile enough to make a difference. One option would be to run some squads of twin-Heavy Flamer Land Speeders and deep strike them in an army with Dante. Throwing down six templates is sure to toast some stupid jetbikes.

Edit: It's gak like Scatterbikes that make me think that BA should have Descent of Angels default and Dante should have the benefits of Angel's Wing. And the Baal Pred should have scout and Land Raiders should have deep strike and gain the benefits from DoA.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Yeah i have no idea why they took scout away from the Baal pred. Its one of the things that made it worth the cost last book. 135 with asscan and bolters and scout would be pretty slick.

Yup. As of right now it is too prone to being blown up before it can do anything useful. Being able to Outflank is absolutely necessary in order to get it in place. I would have been fine with a Formation that grants Scout to Baal Preds. Call it the Angel's Armored Column Formation, have it require three tanks with Overchanged Engines. The tanks gain Scout and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question: Should I use Grav-guns or Meltaguns for a Command Squad? I plan on running a triple Melta Assault Squad as well. I am running the Command Squad with Jump Packs.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.

Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well

I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.

Actually yes, particularly since our librarians have access to Prescience. Though this strategy worked better when we could take 4 specials in our command squads.

I'm definitely liking the command squad, though. Yeah, we cant customize the champion or apothecary, but we get them for free. And a ws5 init5 str5 dude on the charge with 4 ap3 attacks can actually drag down some people in a challenge.

If I didn't have to take the stupid Champion and could customize the Apothecary, I would be all over running Plasma. But having a close combat character in a long range squad just doesn't work. Melta is still useful anyway, even against non-vehicles. Str 8 works well enough. But having Assault will help the squad out. Still, a mobile Melta platform will get the job done well. PLUS, it is fifteen fewer points. And they are vets, so they get A2 base, so an additional on the charge and HoW. Other stuff will have to deal with 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Prescience with a Sternguard squad actually makes the AP 3 ammo useful. Like against.... scatbikes.

I have shied away for the command squad, but maybe I should look at it again.

BA Command Squads aren't as good as C:SM squads due to not being able to take 4x Special Weapons. Also, a Bike Command Squad is better than a Jump Command Squad or Drop Command Squad. I still like them, though.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.

Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?

Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.

Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?

Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.

Don"t use it?

The assault cannon and heavy bolter setup will kill 2 to 3 bikes in a turn, regardless of if they jink. They may jink anyways in fear of the rends on the assault cannon. By comparison the tri las pred kills 1, maybe 2 bikes in a turn of shooting, but forces them to jink.

A pair of baals can pretty reliably take out a 5 man bike squad in an average turn of shooting.

Fair enough. Going cruising speed should keep the bikes inside the range of the Assault Cannon, and scatterbikes will need to stay within 36" to even shoot at the Baal. I was hoping for something I had missed because the Flamestorm Cannon and Heavy Flamer sponsons would ignore cover and wipe out most if not all bikes in a squad. If they could reach them, that is. I still think we need a formation that grants scout back to the Baal Predator.

Martel732 wrote:
The flame storm cannon was never really that great, even in 5th.

If there was a way to take advantage of its Ignore Cover ability, it would not be as bad. As of right now, there is no useful way to deploy it.

 evildrcheese wrote:
Agree, if it had torrent on all template weapons, maybe, but I can't ever see a reason to ever take HF sponsons over HB no matter the main weapon, and I can't see a reason to take the Flamestorm over the AC currently.

D

Sad. I was hoping that I had missed something so I could take the FSC and HF sponsons for roasting speeders. Oh well, I love me some Assault Cannon action.

Remtek wrote:
Assault Cannon variant is still getting glanced to death with SA11. I love my Baal Preds, but they have no place in a competitive list imo.

Baals were designed for urban warfare in the fluff, of course they are doomed in the open. They have to weave between terrain to be any use. They need scout back, though.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What does Dante do in this list?

Well, for starters he's arguably the best combat character in the book, and one of the best marine characters in CC. He also protects his squad by giving them a 4w eternal warrior dude with a 2+/4++/5+++ to tank wounds on (goes with the priest and sanguinary guard, of course). The hit and run and 6in fear bubble give him plenty of squad buffs, too. The fear doesn't come up often but against orks/crons/etc, it can be backbreaking.

His warlord trait isn't as good here as in most of my lists, but it lets me counter deploy the death co and sanguinary guard if need be against opposing drop pod armies and other alpha strike forces. I like deployment options.

You run Dante alongside your Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinary Priest, based on your previous postings, correct? I think that might be what Martel was after. Literally, what does Dante do in the list, which is run around with the SG and SP. I do the same strategy. Giving Dante +1 WS and FNP makes him an absolute beast. On the charge, there isn't much that goes much faster than him.

If I have the extra points, I go ahead and give the SP the Angel's Wing so Interceptor is less effective and so they can have laser-guided Deep Strike.

Is giving this set up of SG(Dante+SP+SG) the Chapter Banner worth it?

 th3maninblak wrote:
Normally I upgrade the priest, too. But in this list points were super tight.

As for the chapter banner, YES. It is definitely worth it. In that unit it nets you 4 str5 ap3 attacks, 1 str9 ap2 attack, 1 str5 ap- attack and a str7 ap2 swing on the charge for 25 points. The reroll on morale and pinning is substantial as well, particularly vs pinning in an army that doesnt want to lose a turn of movement.

Great, I don't have the points to spare to put it into most of my lists, and it isn't exactly something that I can fit in very easily. The fact it looks so frickin' awesome and that it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the SG carrying it due to Angelus Bolters being wrist-mounted just makes it sting that much more :(

I am going to be getting a Baal Predator kit in the near future. I want to have all the options available for it. I have a turret and heavy bolter sponsons from a Predator Destructor kit. I plan on magnetizing the sponsons (easy enough), but if I disassemble the turret, would it be compatible with the Flamestorm Cannon from the Baal Predator kit?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
You need one additional part to make it work. And the sponsons are different from the regular predator.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40000-Space-Marine-Blood-Angel-Baal-Predator-Turret-/361301863890?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item541f44edd2

Shoot, I see what you are talking about now that I look at the different models. Scratch that idea for now. TLAsC is all I will ever run anyway. The HB sponsons are pretty much the same. Different weapon covers. Will just build the Assault Cannon and HB version and be done with it.

Is a Furioso with Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod a valid way for dealing with Scatbikes? Drop it Turn One next to a squad of bikes and lay down three templates. No Jink saves allowed. Sure, it is probably going to die after that, but is it worth the investment?

niv-mizzet wrote:
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."

So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."

So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?

No, they don't.

Great. Money well spent.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not natively, anyway. Blood Angels (along with CSM and a couple other armies) are one of those armies where you're going to have to beat Eldar on the table-top rather than with list-building. There are no real tools within the codex itself that can handle them.

When they are cruising around at their ridiculously high speed shooting their long range, high strength (for a bike at least) weapons that cost next to nothing, there isn't much room for beating them, tabletop or otherwise.

The only way to beat them is to never get them an opponent by getting no one to play them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's pretty malicious.

And yet, somehow not at all unwarranted. Luckily it really won't come into play much since the meta I play in has Orks, AM, MT, DA, and Nids.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
Speaking of blasts...

Is there any reason we couldn't just take triple whirlwinds, use our ASMs as bubble wrap and drop pod our flamer tacs in front of the whirlies rather than as alpha-in-yo-face-strike? The scatbikes would have to eat through a fair chunk to beat down the whirlies, but they'd take a fair few blasts before they finished, leaving the rest of your army doing something else, or eating blasts while taking the other units on.

Would that be a viable use of our cheapest units then?

They would get their 3+ armor save against the Whirlwinds so it would only kill 1-2 per blast.