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 kingbobbito wrote:

Can we make storm bolters Assault 4 so my termies don't suck so bad?

No need for that. Just making them combi-weapons, either twinlinked or one shot special weapon. And with special ammunition...

 Zewrath wrote:
Heavy bolters ought to be changed to salvo 2/3 and cost 5 points, honestly that's the only thing I think should be changed about them.

In my group we experimented with changing them to Salvo 3/4.
While it certainly made Heavy Bolters better, we only saw that demonstrated on units that had them to begin with.
It still wasn't enough to encourage people to use the HB at the expense of any other option when such an option was available.

As an IG player, S5 is what kills it for me because it's just so limiting.

An autocannon gets one fewer shot, but can penetrate AV10-12 and can glance AV13.

A Heavy bolter, meanwhile, can't even penetrate a Rhino. And, frankly, if I'm facing rhinos then I'll count myself a lucky man - more frequently I find myself facing AV12+.

In addition, the Heavy Bolter isn't even a useful anti-infantry weapon. 3 shots that need 3s to wound T4 isn't exactly going to scare anyone.

IMO Heavy Bolter is only as effective as the person rolling the dice. I usually go for Combat Squads though so the rest of the unit can do stuff.
I've had a fair few successes with them. Though I do think they should have something to account for the larger rounds being fired. Maybe Fleshbane.

Like someone said earlier I think Salvo 2/3 solves their problem.

I still wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole. Just saying.

Slayer-Fan wrote:Don't kid yourself. The Heavy Bolter wasn't worth anything back then, and definitely isn't worth anything now. The stats are much worse for handling hordes compared to other options like Flamers and Frag Missiles.

I guess you never played against a tyranid swarm back in the day? S5 Sp4 was great for breaking synapse on creatures with T5 Sv4+, and they could relatively easily down zoanthropes. I guess you never played against footdar back in the day? Everything was Sv4+ or worse, save scorps and wraiths. I guess you never played against orks back in the day? Back when you saw trukk spam and green tide? I guess you never played tau back in the day, where only broadsides had serious Sv?

Heavy bolters were super useful back in the day when people weren't cramming as many Sv2+ MCs or AV12+ transports into their lists as possible. Especially back in the day when intervening units didn't give cover saves to stuff behind them.

And you can still see it today if you play at low points games - low enough so that lists aren't made of nothing but heavy stuff. Even missile launchers do okay in low-model-count, non-super-unit 40k.

 Tigramans wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Heck, if they were just assault anything I'd be happy! I do see it as a bit silly though (considering heavy is in the name), so compromising with salvo would be great.

Then again, HEAVY flamer is assault, and ASSAULT cannon is heavy.....

Imagine boltguns as Assault 2. Tacs would rule the world...

Not quite.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Heavy Bolters have been largely meh forever. It has always suffered in comparison to other weapons offered as alternatives.

They were pretty darn good in rogue trader, but after that... meh. Follow fire was broken to hell and back, so any weapon with that rule was good.

 Ailaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan wrote:Don't kid yourself. The Heavy Bolter wasn't worth anything back then, and definitely isn't worth anything now. The stats are much worse for handling hordes compared to other options like Flamers and Frag Missiles.

I guess you never played against a tyranid swarm back in the day? S5 Sp4 was great for breaking synapse on creatures with T5 Sv4+, and they could relatively easily down zoanthropes. I guess you never played against footdar back in the day? Everything was Sv4+ or worse, save scorps and wraiths. I guess you never played against orks back in the day? Back when you saw trukk spam and green tide? I guess you never played tau back in the day, where only broadsides had serious Sv?

Heavy bolters were super useful back in the day when people weren't cramming as many Sv2+ MCs or AV12+ transports into their lists as possible. Especially back in the day when intervening units didn't give cover saves to stuff behind them.

And you can still see it today if you play at low points games - low enough so that lists aren't made of nothing but heavy stuff. Even missile launchers do okay in low-model-count, non-super-unit 40k.

I played in 4th edition. Yes I knew of the existence of several of those things, and, no, heavy bolters were not the answer. Having used Necrons and Daemon Hunters, I can assure you that Heavy Bolters were a terrible weapon back then, and other people here can tell you how terrible they were in 3rd and 5th. You're in denial if you TRULY believe otherwise.

The BA Scouts can use hellfire shells on the HB. Rather interesting, HVY1 blast poison(2) ... never tried it but it does look like it could be useful

Slayer-Fan wrote:Having used Necrons and Daemon Hunters, I can assure you that Heavy Bolters were a terrible weapon back then

So, an Ap4 weapon was terrible because you only played Sv3+ armies?

Who was in denial again?

I forget exactly when it happened, but once transports became desirable in most cases, the heavy bolter went straight into the toilet.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Heavy Bolters have been largely meh forever. It has always suffered in comparison to other weapons offered as alternatives.

They were pretty darn good in rogue trader, but after that... meh. Follow fire was broken to hell and back, so any weapon with that rule was good.

Oh god, following fire! I'd forgotten that was a thing!

Yeah. Evil.

What was Following Fire?

 vipoid wrote:
What was Following Fire?

If you hit, and I think you needed to wound, but I’d have to double-check, you got to fire again. Didn’t matter if they made their save. Heavy bolters could just wipe out squads.

IIRC we houseruled that you couldn’t kill more guys then your BS. Might have been shoot more then your BS, it’s been a while.

Edit:
Just looked it up, and you did need to wound. You could shift your fire around, but all the targets had to be within 4” of the original.

They weren't too shabby in 2nd edition. you could get up to 6 shots with them (or just jam, which sucked) and with a -2 save modifer, marines would only get a 5+ save. a few of them could tear through most armies.

Also a +1 for the following fire. I saw one dude with a heavy bolter mow down a whole squad of 20 orks one time!

Heavy bolters were good in 2nd, especially with ammo feeds on vehicles. Unfortuntely, the Xenos had much, much MUCH better weapons. Shuriken cannon, anyone? -3 armor save.

If your taking heavier weapons, missiles, laser, both are more versatile vs bigger units and unlike bolter can open tanks.
And missile has frag option.

Plus a good flamer roll can decimate a hoard and right funneling to make that template more fun.

madtankbloke wrote:
They weren't too shabby in 2nd edition. you could get up to 6 shots with them (or just jam, which sucked) and with a -2 save modifer, marines would only get a 5+ save. a few of them could tear through most armies.

Also a +1 for the following fire. I saw one dude with a heavy bolter mow down a whole squad of 20 orks one time!

I HATE jam dice, I mean sustained fire dice. Grrrr. I spent more time jammed than firing. Also why was it 1,1,2,2,3,JAM! Suck. 1/3 chance of a single shot, 1/6th chance of no shot and no shooting next turn. Hardly worth it. If it had been 1,2,2,3,3,Jam!, that would have been slightly better.

In second edition, blasts were where it was at. Not necessarily for hitting multiple dudes (though that was nice), but for the chance to hit even if you missed.

That's awesome! We called them Jam! dice too! And this was before the interwebs spread such terms around.

 Ailaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan wrote:Having used Necrons and Daemon Hunters, I can assure you that Heavy Bolters were a terrible weapon back then

So, an Ap4 weapon was terrible because you only played Sv3+ armies?

Who was in denial again?

The AP4 weapon was terrible when used against my armies, AND was terrible against other armies. A full Devastator squad with Heavy Bolters is probably going to get off about 8 shots, and then 6-7 wounds on a squad of Termagaunts. Two or so Flamers would've caused much more damage, AND would've been cheaper at the same time. Not only is it a heavy weapon, it's a terrible one too when you consider the other anti-swarm options in this regard, in the form of Plasma Cannons or ML's, which are more flexible at the same time.
YES Heavy Bolters were terrible back then and are terrible now. Saying otherwise promotes a special snowflake status or a L2P.

Martel732 wrote:
That's awesome! We called them Jam! dice too! And this was before the interwebs spread such terms around.

Ever see an assault cannon jam 3 times, cause an explosion and kill Bjorn the Fell Handed?

I have.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Slayer-Fan wrote:A full Devastator squad with Heavy Bolters is probably going to get off about 8 shots, and then 6-7 wounds on a squad of Termagaunts. Two or so Flamers would've caused much more damage, AND would've been cheaper at the same time.

So, let's say that the model holding a flamer survives until he gets to shoot it, and let's say that he gets into range, and let's say the flamer gets more than one shot. Even then, it's S5 Ap4, compared to S4 Ap5. So the flamer is still worse. Which is why it was cheaper.

Unless you also mean to believe that you're going to be netting 18 hits per flamer shot, or something...

Slayer-Fan wrote: it's a terrible one too when you consider the other anti-swarm options in this regard,

Really. So, a weapon that is nearly always in range and can start shooting turn 1 from a unit that can be dug deep in cover that has +1S and -1Ap is terrible? Flamers must REALLY suck.

Slayer-Fan wrote:in the form of Plasma Cannons or ML's, which are more flexible at the same time.

Missile launchers are only better than heavy bolters against infantry in a fantasy land where you always get 9 hits per shot.

They're more flexible, but that's not necessarily a benefit if the point is to kill hordes.

Slayer-Fan wrote:YES Heavy Bolters were terrible back then and are terrible now. Saying otherwise promotes a special snowflake status or a L2P.

Hello, Mr. Sequetur.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's awesome! We called them Jam! dice too! And this was before the interwebs spread such terms around.

Ever see an assault cannon jam 3 times, cause an explosion and kill Bjorn the Fell Handed?

I have.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

No, but I did on a regular dread. I also saw a virus grenade kill an entire IG army.

I saw a Leman Russ with a Vortex Grenade Detonator do horrible things...
... my meta used lots of Vortex Grenades.

Its so bad because alot of stuff has better armoursave then 4+... And those that dont often have either cover, or some special rule that lets them evade stuff, or are just so cheap that it's not worth.

The Tactical Heavy Bolter is a VERY Situational Weapon.
The only time I use them is with Imperial Fist/Sentinels of Tera List. And then only if I am expeting to gunline against a Horde/Swarm Army.
I think it also depends on the second weapom.
Flamer: I don't think mixes well, mostly become of range.
Grav Gun: This one meshes well with the SoT CT. At 18" You got the full RoF of 3 of the Grav Gun [Assuming you did not move] and the HB getting its 3 shots woth Re-Rolls. Toss in a Combi-Grav for more shots.
Melta-Gun: No Synergy Here, at least with the flamer you get some Assualt Protection.
Plasma-Gun: The other good choice, it gives you mufti-target engagement ability.

Now having said all of that unless I am running a IF/SoT list I go with Plasma-Gun/Plasma-Cannon/Combi-Plasma.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Slayer-Fan wrote:Having used Necrons and Daemon Hunters, I can assure you that Heavy Bolters were a terrible weapon back then

So, an Ap4 weapon was terrible because you only played Sv3+ armies?

Who was in denial again?

The AP4 weapon was terrible when used against my armies, AND was terrible against other armies. A full Devastator squad with Heavy Bolters is probably going to get off about 8 shots, and then 6-7 wounds on a squad of Termagaunts. Two or so Flamers would've caused much more damage, AND would've been cheaper at the same time. Not only is it a heavy weapon, it's a terrible one too when you consider the other anti-swarm options in this regard, in the form of Plasma Cannons or ML's, which are more flexible at the same time.
YES Heavy Bolters were terrible back then and are terrible now. Saying otherwise promotes a special snowflake status or a L2P.

I play imperial fists, who are a little different, and heavy bolters can re-roll 1's and have tank hunters. this means they shred light vehicles, stand a reasonable chance of glancing down a rhino in one round and are slightly more accurate than your usual marines. you can also count on getting more than 1 round of shooting with them (unless death happens).

What this means for said unit of termagants Vs imperial fists, is that you will have to weather at least 2 turns of HB shooting from a Dev squad, 3 shots at BS5 re-rolling 1's and 9 shots at BS4 re-rolling 1's (which is about 10 hits from 12 shots and will probably net 17-18 casualties before cover saves over 2 rounds of shooting) and then once you have closed the distance a unit of tac marines with a flamer and combi flamer, or a bike squad with Tl bolters comes in to finish the job.

If it wasn't for the IF chapter trait i don't think i would take heavy bolters at all, and while i have been experimenting with tac squads with a HB I think the only 'good' way of using HB's is 4 in a dev squad, a dakka pred if you are trying to be cheap and still have a tough tank, and scouts who can benefit from having hellfire shells. certainly not on Centurions,or with vets

There are better weapons, certainly, but HB's have a 12 inch advantage over Plasma, will always get their 3 shots, and S5 can wound most things, even if the AP is a little weak. they can only threaten infantry and light vehicles.
Blasts might seem to be a better way to deal damage. the thunderfire has a better range, better strength, but worse AP which admittedly hardly matters against MEQ's but in my experience, will struggle to get as many hits and wounds in a round of shooting as a heavy bolter armed dev squad will. you can hide thunderfires, which is something you cant do with devs.

but if a unit of termagants gets into range after only 1 round of shooting, either i've done something wrong, or my opponent has outplayed me.

I never understood why a heavy bolter is "heavy" but a heavy flamer (just as big model-wise) is "assault".

Make heavy bolters assault, give them two more shots, keep them at 10 points.