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A while ago there was a thread about the rating of codexs (GW spelling) and it seemed like the majority voted the Astra Militarum to be slightly under-powered. Before explaining this, could you tell me what you think of the orders-system and the normal guardsmen? Do you think the orders are a good way to make the Astra Militarum unique or are there other ways to do it? Are the orders too weak and therefore redundant? Are there too few? Is the system too rigid?

What about the platoons and guardsmen? Do you ever take more than three squads in one platoon? Do you ever take more than two platoons? What about the platoon command squads - I could imagine that they annoyingly die too fast so you lose the abilities to give orders. Does it even matter as it's the rest of the army which does the damage and platoons are just there too soak damage. Is Astra Militarum more sensitive to how many points being played compared to other armies?

These are some of the questions which I would like to talk about with the passionate Imperi... Astra Militarum players. Thank you very much.

I like the orders system. The buffs are neat, but hardly necessary, and the fact that you can only take them on tiny, fragile squads does a good job balancing them.

I also like that it requires a leadership test to pass them. Guard are disciplined, but not, you know, insane 12-hours-of-prayer-and-combat-dogma-indoctrination-per-day disciplined. I like that the soldiers sort of have a mind of their own, but can be "convinced" by the "leadership" of a nearby commissar to follow orders more exactly.

I honestly wish more races had Ld-based buffs and abilities, but here we are.

As for platoons, there used to be a lot more variety back when you could run foot lists with less difficulty than running a triathalon. When hordes were more useful, there was more variety in running them, as you could build them to do different things. Now, whichever way you run them, they're likely to just get killed before they leave their deployment zone.

In 5th ed, for example, I sometimes ran platoons with 4 PISs, that would split into two power blobs, and sometimes I'd run it with 3 PISs and have a larger-than-normal blob. Or on kill point games, where I'd have 40 dudes in a single unit. I'd also run them slightly differently sometimes based on the opponents I'd fight. Crowe-wing meant tiny blobs (or no blobs at all), while that same list would form up into large units against newcrons so that tesla didn't destroy my entire army.

Alas, those nuisances are much less pronounced than they already weren't.

As for platoons vs. the rest of the army, everything was always set up to handle hard targets. A vast pile of lasguns and power weapons could generally handle anything that S3 could hurt, which meant that the weapon upgrades everywhere in the army were there to handle everything else. Which meant T6 Sv2+, and AV. Which usually meant my infantry squads would all get as many lascannons and meltaguns as they could carry, and my support units were the same.

I did occasionally run a hellhound or flamer stormtroopers, or ogryn, but it was usually lascannon+multimelta vanquishers, devil dogs, melta stormies, and the like.

Mech guard, especially if we're talking about heavier mech, like unbound russ companies, tend to vary less based on the number of points you play. Foot guard is extremely points sensitive. Once you get past about 750 points, the ridiculously tiny space of a 4x6 board basically rules out much by means of serious movement tactics. Also, once you get past that points level, your opponents can start taking support units that can eat infantry squads whole. Furthermore, that points level is when you start seeing a rapidly escalating number of units that lasguns can't really hurt.

 Ailaros wrote:
I like the orders system. The buffs are neat, but hardly necessary, and the fact that you can only take them on tiny, fragile squads does a good job balancing them.

I also like that it requires a leadership test to pass them. Guard are disciplined, but not, you know, insane 12-hours-of-prayer-and-combat-dogma-indoctrination-per-day disciplined. I like that the soldiers sort of have a mind of their own, but can be "convinced" by the "leadership" of a nearby commissar to follow orders more exactly.

I honestly wish more races had Ld-based buffs and abilities, but here we are.

As for platoons, there used to be a lot more variety back when you could run foot lists with less difficulty than running a triathalon. When hordes were more useful, there was more variety in running them, as you could build them to do different things. Now, whichever way you run them, they're likely to just get killed before they leave their deployment zone.

In 5th ed, for example, I sometimes ran platoons with 4 PISs, that would split into two power blobs, and sometimes I'd run it with 3 PISs and have a larger-than-normal blob. Or on kill point games, where I'd have 40 dudes in a single unit. I'd also run them slightly differently sometimes based on the opponents I'd fight. Crowe-wing meant tiny blobs (or no blobs at all), while that same list would form up into large units against newcrons so that tesla didn't destroy my entire army.

Alas, those nuisances are much less pronounced than they already weren't.

As for platoons vs. the rest of the army, everything was always set up to handle hard targets. A vast pile of lasguns and power weapons could generally handle anything that S3 could hurt, which meant that the weapon upgrades everywhere in the army were there to handle everything else. Which meant T6 Sv2+, and AV. Which usually meant my infantry squads would all get as many lascannons and meltaguns as they could carry, and my support units were the same.

I did occasionally run a hellhound or flamer stormtroopers, or ogryn, but it was usually lascannon+multimelta vanquishers, devil dogs, melta stormies, and the like.

Mech guard, especially if we're talking about heavier mech, like unbound russ companies, tend to vary less based on the number of points you play. Foot guard is extremely points sensitive. Once you get past about 750 points, the ridiculously tiny space of a 4x6 board basically rules out much by means of serious movement tactics. Also, once you get past that points level, your opponents can start taking support units that can eat infantry squads whole. Furthermore, that points level is when you start seeing a rapidly escalating number of units that lasguns can't really hurt.

Ok - thank you for getting started. There's some interesting points which I haven't thought about - for example the difference through the editions that the power level of horde armies has changed - I thought it was largely the same. Specifically the platoons seem much more flexible than the 2nd edition codex but maybe I shouldn't compare with that one?

Ah yes the actual size of the board - I agree fully on this one but the 4x6 board has always seemed tiny to me. Do all people play on this size board? What could a solution be? A 5x8 board? I don't think that fewer guardsmen would solve the problem in a good way - an Astra Militarum army should be a mass infantry army...

Lower points is generally the way to go. 40k starts getting pretty wonky once you get above 1500. A 750 point game has a few core choices with one or two support units. A 1850 point game has devolved to how many titans/riptides/wave serpents/duplicates of the same single hot gak unit or combo you can cram onto a single table.

And yeah, infantry platoons, as far as the codex itself is concerned, are the best they've been. Orders, and more choices for them, independent characters you can take a lot more of to give different kinds of buffs, combined squads, more PCS options.

If the core rules didn't hate foot hordes quite so much, I'd making much more of an effort to get out and play them.

Also, if you want to play a bigger game at a more sane points level, I'll direct you to my WIP rules for domination 40k mission I've been tinkering with.

I disagree, Higher points are where guard shine. Blob guard backed by vets and artillery are great in the tournaments right now, throw in a knight and you got a good army there.

The problem is one of scaling. At 1850 points, you can fit over 300 guardsmen on the table. Or, I should say, try and fit that many. More likely you're going to have a giant deployment-zone-shaped loaf of guardsmen.

There's a reason three hundred could beat three million: the horde had to cram into too small of a space. The same is more or less true for foot guard at high points levels. Nothing can support each other, and everything gets destroyed in detail.

Admittedly, 300 guardsmen is rather meta-bending at the moment, but those mass melta and plasma everyone's bringing can still wound guardsmen. And emperor protect you if, upon hearing rumor of a foot guard player, they bring some real anti-horde weapons.

The problem here is that foot guard multiplies on itself the harder you spam it, but it's so hard to spam foot guard at high points, that you invariably wind up cutting your army down to a half-horde with, say, a bunch of knights or tanks or something in there. That inevitable dilution kills off whatever cumulative advantages foot lists have as points scale up.

One of the realities of 40k at present is that no army is lacking in high ROF weapons with good strength, medium AP and decent range or a durable chassis, so to speak.

What this means is footslogging guard (or footslogging anything really) dies, dies fast, and accomplishes little.

For instance, I have a variant Guard army which specializes in throwing men at the enemy; the Death Korps of Krieg Assault Brigade. I get WS4 Guardsmen with frag and krak standard, immune to 25% tests and can always regroup for the price of a naked veteran squad. Not an awful trade off in points, one mght think, especially as when the whole platoon dies, it re-enters play from reserves.

A real human wave, which can, in theory, afford to be aggressive and take losses (and is admittedly fun to play, regardless of the outcome, I abhor gunlines).

The reality, however, is many armies can kill my entire allotment of infantry (about 70 guardsmen at 1500 points across two platoons) in 1-2 turns. It's rare that ever get to the mid point of the table when they have access to plentiful cover. Even the most "meh" armies at present have copius amounts of anti-infantry firepower sufficient enough (and usually designed to) kill 2+ armour units, nevermind measly guardsmen. More often than not, my opponents have to try and not kill off my squads lest I get them back and delay them some more, and end up having 1/3 of their army volunteer to not shoot in a turn.

Infantry accomplish feth-all in most even pseudo-competitive environments unless they're vehicle mounted or loaded with powerful guns, and footguard may have decent gun options, but have no survivability relative to the massive upswing in anti-infantry firepower. When people bemoan tactical marines survival when on foot, what chance does Guard have?

It doesn't help that DKoK AB infantry platoon squads pay an extra 20pts per unit, just because, can't take heavy weapons, and can't blob up the way cheaper basic IG platoons can.

That said, the firepower in general has risen dramatically, such that often even relatively "light" shooting armies now are putting out firepower that in 4E would have wiped boards in three or four turns, and IG aren't anything special in the firepower department anymore despite being an almost completely shooting oriented army. Even a mech IG army isn't particularly resilient, and won't find itself surviving if it brings any less than a dozen+ vehicles on top of several dozen infantry to the table in an 1850/2000pt game.

I like the idea of foot-guard, but it's something I just can't get to work. The problems I run into are:

- Space. I know this has already been mentioned, but trying to get multiple, large platoons on the table is a massive pain. And, if your opponent has blasts, enjoy being basically unable to spread out your men.

- Unwanted concentration of firepower and resources. One of the reasons I like MSU armies is that they can choose whether to concentrate their firepower or shoot many different units. With foot-guard, you're generally stuck firing about 400pts of firepower into one unit.

Now, you could use infantry squads individually (instead of merging them), but this then means you won't have nearly enough orders to go around and the orders you do have will be affecting very little.

- Following on from the above, your army basically consists of death-star units (in terms of cost and force-concentration), yet without the most important traits of death-stars. Resilience? Ha! Damage output? God, no. Force concentration? Paradoxically, I'd say 'no'. You're really just concentrating points, which isn't the same thing.

- Everything can kill you, but you'll often struggle to damage them back. Lasguns are a horrible, horrible weapon in this edition. Far too many spammed units are either outright immune to them, or so close as to be basically immune. Not to mention all the models these days that are T5.

In contrast, everything in the game can kill guardsmen with no issues - and many models can remove whole swathes of them without breaking a sweat. So, you're left with an attrition army that sucks at attrition.

- Concentration of heavy weapons is abysmal. There are two ways we can get heavy weapons. The first is with dedicated HWSs. These overpay by 50% for no adequately-explored reason, and have no surplus bodies to take hits. They're also Ld7, can't get vox-casters, and have to take a morale test if they lose a single model.

The other way to get heavy weapons is with a single HWT per 10 guardsmen. So, for each heavy weapon you fire at a target, you also have 8 guardsmen who have to fire their lasguns at said target - regardless of whether they can actually hurt it. There is a split-fire order to get around this... except that it only allows one weapon to split fire. So, your squad of 40 guardsmen and 4 lascannons can fire a single lascannon at a different target. Woot.


It's a shame, because I really like the idea. But, since 7th, the game feels like it's trying to actively punish infantry players.

Chaospling wrote:
A while ago there was a thread about the rating of codexs (GW spelling) and it seemed like the majority voted the Astra Militarum to be slightly under-powered. Before explaining this, could you tell me what you think of the orders-system and the normal guardsmen? Do you think the orders are a good way to make the Astra Militarum unique or are there other ways to do it? Are the orders too weak and therefore redundant? Are there too few? Is the system too rigid?

I don't think the book is weak at all, as a whole or forbuilding lists focused on specific parts of the army.

Orders are one of the most interesting parts of the army to me, they add a uniqueness beyond 'I have loads of guys' and most of them are just fun. I would never call them a reason to take the unit, but having the ability to throw dice by the dozen with FRFSRF, make a mad dash wiith MMM or FFTE, or pull tricks like going to ground them popping back up and shooting with "get back in the fight!". None of these are going to break the game, but they all allow your Guardsmen to do things you would never expect them to do, which is largely what the army is about in my eyes.

And Orders are just one way of buffing your Platoons, and work best when combined with others. FRF may not be scary, but FRF with Prescience from a Psyker is. 30 Conscripts for 90 points isn't amazing, throw in a 25-point Priest for Fearless and War Hymns and they are both dangerous and steadfast. I like to see Foot Guard and the various buffs as something that, when brought together, becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

What about the platoons and guardsmen? Do you ever take more than three squads in one platoon? Do you ever take more than two platoons? What about the platoon command squads - I could imagine that they annoyingly die too fast so you lose the abilities to give orders. Does it even matter as it's the rest of the army which does the damage and platoons are just there too soak damage. Is Astra Militarum more sensitive to how many points being played compared to other armies?

My typical starting point for a list is 2 Platoons with 30 men in each and a PCS (more on that later). From there, depending on how I feel like playing, I'll add a couple more smaller platoons, add some Conscripts to the current ones, or a pair of kitted out Vet Squads or Stormtrooper Platoons.

The PCS itself has to be one of my favourite units in the game. For 30 points you get ObSec and Orders, and for 50 you can get that and 4 Flamers as well, making it great as a counter-attack unit or emergency Objective Clearer. So long as you keep them in cover (preferably hugging LoS-blocking terrain) or behind your other units, they can keep doling out Orders, especially if you have other threats that are more significant.

On points, it goes both ways. At high point, there will be more firepower that can take on your guys, which can be a pain. However, I can bring 50ish bodies and an AV14 Tank at 500 points, something few if any armies can match. At the average 1500-point level it all balances out, I feel, so they are at no real advantage/disadvantage until you take the game to extremes of size. In general, IG can bring more of anything but Fliers or MCs at any given points level than their opponent, be that Special Weapons (Vets), Armour (Russes), bodies (Platoons) or artillery (Wyverns and Basslies, and some Forge World stuff).

For more of my thoughts on the principles and units of Foot Guard, check out this article:
http://antorsfinest.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/an-introduction-to-foot-guard-part-1.html

 Paradigm wrote:
In general, IG can bring more of anything but Fliers or MCs at any given points level than their opponent

What? With IG, you can bring some 12 Fliers from a single CAD detachment (9 from FA and 3 from HS), and they will be some of the (if not the) best fliers in the game (Vendettas and Vultures, obviously). No other army can do the same (Necron is the closest with 9 Flyers).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
In general, IG can bring more of anything but Fliers or MCs at any given points level than their opponent

What? With IG, you can bring some 12 Fliers from a single CAD detachment (9 from FA and 3 from HS), and they will be some of the (if not the) best fliers in the game (Vendettas and Vultures, obviously). No other army can do the same (Necron is the closest with 9 Flyers).

Oh, they can certainly bring a lot in FOC terms. I don't know the cost of the new Cron flier profiles, but it is possible to out-Flier IG per point with quite a few fliers clocking in cheaper than the Vendetta, I believe. For instance, Stormtalons, possibly the Eldar ones?

 Paradigm wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
In general, IG can bring more of anything but Fliers or MCs at any given points level than their opponent

What? With IG, you can bring some 12 Fliers from a single CAD detachment (9 from FA and 3 from HS), and they will be some of the (if not the) best fliers in the game (Vendettas and Vultures, obviously). No other army can do the same (Necron is the closest with 9 Flyers).

Oh, they can certainly bring a lot in FOC terms. I don't know the cost of the new Cron flier profiles, but it is possible to out-Flier IG per point with quite a few fliers clocking in cheaper than the Vendetta, I believe. For instance, Stormtalons, possibly the Eldar ones?

Only the Night Scythe, the Stormtalon, the Razorwing, and the Ork fliers are considerably cheaper than the Vendetta, but what you lose with the Vendetta you regain with the Vulture that is cheaper than any other Flier in the game IIRC. Otherwise, all Fliers are around ~160 points. Hell if you really want to spam fliers with AM, then just bring Valkyres and kit out the Vultures for AT.

This is gold - thank you for answering though I hope you don't stop here!
I have to respond several times, but one interesting aspect is the space of the board - is a 4' x 6' just too small? Is this a problem for all horde armies? (the fact that you almost can't move tactically around and that you can't space out properly.) By the way, my guess is that this problem start at roughly 1500 points, correct?

I can say as a non-horde player that I think the 4' x 6' board is a bit too small for me.

Chaospling wrote:
This is gold - thank you for answering though I hope you don't stop here!
I have to respond several times, but one interesting aspect is the space of the board - is a 4' x 6' just too small? Is this a problem for all horde armies? (the fact that you almost can't move tactically around and that you can't space out properly.) By the way, my guess is that this problem start at roughly 1500 points, correct?

I can say as a non-horde player that I think the 4' x 6' board is a bit too small for me.

I've never had an issue on a 6x4" with Horde Guard (although I don't take as many bodies as humanly possible, I still run over 100 men at 1500+), it can be a bit cramped if you end up playing longways but other than that, it's typically fine. Of course, you can end up logjamming trying to force them through a gap or some Difficult Terrain, but you just need to be careful to avoid that same as anyone else.

But then, I go full-speed-ahead with my Guard, rather than sitting and shooting with the odd shuffle around. In the latter turns, when I'm close enough to Rapid Firee FRF or charge with Priest-led Conscripts I imagine my opponents wished the board was bigger!

 Paradigm wrote:

I've never had an issue on a 6x4" with Horde Guard (although I don't take as many bodies as humanly possible, I still run over 100 men at 1500+), it can be a bit cramped if you end up playing longways but other than that, it's typically fine. Of course, you can end up logjamming trying to force them through a gap or some Difficult Terrain, but you just need to be careful to avoid that same as anyone else.

But then, I go full-speed-ahead with my Guard, rather than sitting and shooting with the odd shuffle around. In the latter turns, when I'm close enough to Rapid Firee FRF or charge with Priest-led Conscripts I imagine my opponents wished the board was bigger!

Could you perhaps post one of your 1500pt infantry guard lists?

I'm really interested in seeing what they look like.

I'm building a 1000pt IG army, but I'm not doing it competitively, I'm just trying to copy the look of the CSA, but I'm still gonna field 1-2 50-man blob squads of IG. FRFSRF can get pretty nasty then.

Chaospling wrote:
I can say as a non-horde player that I think the 4' x 6' board is a bit too small for me.

I never had a problem with the 4'x6', and I field some 200+ guys in 1500 points when I go horde (2 CCS, 2 50 Conscript blob with one Priest each, two full Platoons with 1 PCS and 5 IS (never blobbed), las+plas for one CCS and all IS, 2xflamer+2xmelta for PCS).

 vipoid wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

I've never had an issue on a 6x4" with Horde Guard (although I don't take as many bodies as humanly possible, I still run over 100 men at 1500+), it can be a bit cramped if you end up playing longways but other than that, it's typically fine. Of course, you can end up logjamming trying to force them through a gap or some Difficult Terrain, but you just need to be careful to avoid that same as anyone else.

But then, I go full-speed-ahead with my Guard, rather than sitting and shooting with the odd shuffle around. In the latter turns, when I'm close enough to Rapid Firee FRF or charge with Priest-led Conscripts I imagine my opponents wished the board was bigger!

Could you perhaps post one of your 1500pt infantry guard lists?

I'm really interested in seeing what they look like.

Sure. I haven't played pure-guard in a while, but here's a list from a while back that focuses on getting the best out of Foot Guard.

Foot Guard, 1500:

HQ:

CCS, Carapace, Autocannon: 83

Priest x3: 75

Primaris: 50
Primaris: 50

Troops

Platoon 1:
PCS, 4 Flamers: 50

PIS, melta: 60
PIS, melta: 60
PIS, melta: 60

40 Conscripts: 120

SWS, 3x Sniper: 36
SWS, 3x Sniper: 36


Platoon 2:
PCS, 4 Flamers: 50
Commissar

PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70
PIS, Lascannon: 70

40 Conscripts: 120

SWS, 3x Sniper: 36
SWS, 3x Sniper: 36


Veterans, Carapace, 3x Plasma: 120

Veterans, Carapace, 3x Plasma: 120

ADL, Quad Gun: 100
1497

any my thinking from the time:

The Commissar attached to the Lascannon blob. which sit behind the ADL with the Veterans. The Conscripts move up side-by-side, in front on the Melta blob, with priests attached to each. The SWS move up on the flanks for vantage points or hide as needed. Psykers go in the Lascannon and Melta blobs.

It's not as many bodies as some lists throw down, but every unit is capable of doing damage, while none are a pivotal enough to scream ''shoot me!'. Small and big units give a balance between target overload and return on buffs.

For more detail on the principles behind this list, see this article:
http://antorsfinest.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/spotlight-on-astra-militarium-troops.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I'm building a 1000pt IG army, but I'm not doing it competitively, I'm just trying to copy the look of the CSA, but I'm still gonna field 1-2 50-man blob squads of IG. FRFSRF can get pretty nasty then.

50-Blobs look good on paper, but in practice, I find them far too unwiedly. Terrain will bog them down, they are unlikely to ever all be in effective range, and are very hard to bring to bear.

My rule of thumb is no more than 30 for PIS and 40 for Conscripts, anything beyond that and I'd rather just take another blob.

Thanks for posting that list. Out of interest, do you not struggle against vehicles with just that one Lascannon squad?

Also, I notice you have 3pts spare - you could buy your commander Krak Grenades and a Bolt Pistol with that!

 vipoid wrote:
Thanks for posting that list. Out of interest, do you not struggle against vehicles with just that one Lascannon squad?

Also, I notice you have 3pts spare - you could buy your commander Krak Grenades and a Bolt Pistol with that!

Well, there are 3 Las and 3 Melta in the IS, and 6 Plasma between the Vet Squads, and if I weren't running Foot-only I'd also have a LasPlas Vanquisher in most lists, so I think it's capable of handling anything but an all-Land Raider list or something like that. It could just be a local thing; I don't see many vehicles in my regular opponents' armies, so perhaps put less emphasis on tank killing, but this list woudld be easy to alter to have more tank-killers if you need it; just drop some SWS and maybe the ADL, and throw in a few more Lascannons.

 Paradigm wrote:


50-Blobs look good on paper, but in practice, I find them far too unwiedly. Terrain will bog them down, they are unlikely to ever all be in effective range, and are very hard to bring to bear.

My rule of thumb is no more than 30 for PIS and 40 for Conscripts, anything beyond that and I'd rather just take another blob.

I was thinking of adding an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum to give them BS 10, combine that with FRFSRF and I feel it should work. I'll start fielding them at around 30 men though, but I'm gonna play Rough Riders too, so I think my competitiveness (though might play them as DKoK Death Riders instead) might be pretty low anyway.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


50-Blobs look good on paper, but in practice, I find them far too unwiedly. Terrain will bog them down, they are unlikely to ever all be in effective range, and are very hard to bring to bear.

My rule of thumb is no more than 30 for PIS and 40 for Conscripts, anything beyond that and I'd rather just take another blob.

I was thinking of adding an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum to give them BS 10, combine that with FRFSRF and I feel it should work. I'll start fielding them at around 30 men though, but I'm gonna play Rough Riders too, so I think my competitiveness (though might play them as DKoK Death Riders instead) might be pretty low anyway.

There is the priciple of more men meaning greater return on any buffing units, so I can see where you're coming from, but I just think 50 is taking that too far. Yes, it means you're only paying a tenth of a point per model for your TL buff from a Prescience Psyker, but at the same time, the chance of having all 50 guys able to shoot/fight at once is pretty minimal. While it can end up costing more (as you need another PCS, but they are great anyway), I'd rather have 2 blobs of 30 that 1 of 50, and I'd get better results from the former.

50-man blobs are like bringing a nuclear missile to an indoor waterbomb fight, but then finding out it can't actually fit through the door. In other words, they have a lot of firepower/staying power, but as soon as you hit terrain, another unit or any other obstacle, they just break.

Your call, of course, but my advice would be to steer well clear of 50-man blobs, even when you are buffing them.

 Paradigm wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


50-Blobs look good on paper, but in practice, I find them far too unwiedly. Terrain will bog them down, they are unlikely to ever all be in effective range, and are very hard to bring to bear.

My rule of thumb is no more than 30 for PIS and 40 for Conscripts, anything beyond that and I'd rather just take another blob.

I was thinking of adding an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum to give them BS 10, combine that with FRFSRF and I feel it should work. I'll start fielding them at around 30 men though, but I'm gonna play Rough Riders too, so I think my competitiveness (though might play them as DKoK Death Riders instead) might be pretty low anyway.

There is the priciple of more men meaning greater return on any buffing units, so I can see where you're coming from, but I just think 50 is taking that too far. Yes, it means you're only paying a tenth of a point per model for your TL buff from a Prescience Psyker, but at the same time, the chance of having all 50 guys able to shoot/fight at once is pretty minimal. While it can end up costing more (as you need another PCS, but they are great anyway), I'd rather have 2 blobs of 30 that 1 of 50, and I'd get better results from the former.

50-man blobs are like bringing a nuclear missile to an indoor waterbomb fight, but then finding out it can't actually fit through the door. In other words, they have a lot of firepower/staying power, but as soon as you hit terrain, another unit or any other obstacle, they just break.

Your call, of course, but my advice would be to steer well clear of 50-man blobs, even when you are buffing them.

I'll see how they work in reality, I'll obviously start off with just 30. It takes a while to paint... :(

 Paradigm wrote:

50-man blobs are like bringing a nuclear missile to an indoor waterbomb fight, but then finding out it can't actually fit through the door. In other words, they have a lot of firepower/staying power, but as soon as you hit terrain, another unit or any other obstacle, they just break.

In my experience, that "lot" of firepower/staying power is just enough. My 50-strong Conscript blobs usually melt away into nothingness around Turn 3, and they manage to do that only because there are so many of them.

They are more like a huge, but continuously eroding mattress you keep under yourself against the spike traps on the floor. If it can't fit into the trap hole, then it isn't a problem - the spikes won't hurt you, and that's the whole point of it.

Chaospling wrote: the space of the board - is a 4' x 6' just too small? Is this a problem for all horde armies? (the fact that you almost can't move tactically around and that you can't space out properly.) By the way, my guess is that this problem start at roughly 1500 points, correct?

I can say as a non-horde player that I think the 4' x 6' board is a bit too small for me.

Yes, the board is too small.

Here's what a foot guard army looks like when spreading out against blast weapons:



Just ignore the DE for a moment, this pictures is actually of a 2vs2 game. The important thing here is the guard army, which basically fills up the table. With how many points?

That's 750 points of guardsmen. Already the table is nearly too cramped. I'd say by the time you get to 1000, it's already hopeless. The only way I made a foot horde work back in the day with 1500+ points was by taking al'rahem to outflank a huge wad of them. Alas, no longer.

And here's another example:



This is from an 1850 point game, but it's got infantry and tanks in it. That amount of infantry you see is about 900 points worth, and it already dominates its deployment zone without much space to maneuver. Once you get to this points level, running a half-horde is about the only way you can feasibly play a foot-heavy guard army.

4x6' is too small for most armies by 1500, but it's already beyond too small for a real horde.

Paradigm wrote:I've never had an issue on a 6x4" with Horde Guard (although I don't take as many bodies as humanly possible, I still run over 100 men at 1500+), it can be a bit cramped if you end up playing longways but other than that, it's typically fine. Of course, you can end up logjamming trying to force them through a gap or some Difficult Terrain, but you just need to be careful to avoid that same as anyone else.

Firstly, 100 dudes at 1500 points isn't a horde. The list you posted later is a horde, and it come in at 200 models.

And its sort of hard to avoid logjamming when your army takes up the entire DZ.

AtoMaki wrote:They are more like a huge, but continuously eroding mattress you keep under yourself against the spike traps on the floor. If it can't fit into the trap hole, then it isn't a problem - the spikes won't hurt you, and that's the whole point of it.

I like to think of it more like pushing sand forward to make a sandcastle while the waves or tide is coming in. The question is can you throw enough sand forward faster than the water whisks it away.

To those of you who play aggressively:

By aggressively I gather you mean moving towards the enemy, objectives or cover to be able to fire your lasguns from within 12"...? What would be preferred - more durability to reach certain areas of the map or greater fire power once you reach the 12" zone/cover/objective?

Chaospling wrote:
To those of you who play aggressively:

By aggressively I gather you mean moving towards the enemy, objectives or cover to be able to fire your lasguns from within 12"...? What would be preferred - more durability to reach certain areas of the map or greater fire power once you reach the 12" zone/cover/objective?

Personally, I err on the side of durability. Again, it may be a local meta thing, but most of the armies I face (usually Tau, Crons, IG and sometimes Nids) don't need an absolute tonne of firepower to kill or to overrun in melee, and to deal with the harder targets I usually pack dedicated units, like melta/plasma Stormtroopers or allied Space Wolves in Pods. My Platoons I rely on to take and hold ground rather than killing off the enemy single-handedly. If the chance comes up, I'll move them up and unleash hell with masses of fire, but if they end up just taking the middle ground while my dedicated aggressive units push on then they've done their job.

Bear in mind that with FRF, a Platoon can essentially 'Rapid Fire' at 24" away, so even hanging back a little can throw a fair few more dice downrange than most others at a similar distance.

Platoons are meant to be supported TBH.

Ok, so when you play aggressively the advancing squads are with special weapons but without heavy weapons? Do you ever not choose a special weapon?