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So when you give the command barge IWND it gives the rule to both the vehicle and the character. So when you do the IWND roll do you roll once and on a 5,6 return a wound and a hull point or Do you roll separately for the vehicle and the character.

It is one model. Rolling for each would be treating them as two models. As far as one wound and/or HP what is the wording of IWND say?

Wound or Hull point is the wording.
So it's one or the other, not both in this case.

On the wording of the wargear it says. "If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"

So it's treating them as separate entities so is there 2 rolls or just one?

Punisher wrote:
On the wording of the wargear it says. "If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"

So it's treating them as separate entities so is there 2 rolls or just one?

It's still one model so it's only one roll. I think GW gave them both IWND is so if you have full starting wounds but not hull points you can roll on the chariot to regain hull points, and not get any arguments of "you overlord doesn't have hull points so he can't regain them" or vice versa, but causes this question to be raised.

Given the rules specifically call out the chariot and the rider, I would say it is 2 rolls.

It doesn't matter if the model has it once or 3567553486883774 times.

IWND "At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule...." How many models is a OL on a CCW?

Gravmyr wrote:
It doesn't matter if the model has it once or 3567553486883774 times.

IWND "At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule...." How many models is a OL on a CCW?

I agree with that statement in principle. However, GW makes it clear they do not. ""If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"""

They clearly state that the model is separate from the chariot for the purposes of the Phylactery.

Fragile wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
It doesn't matter if the model has it once or 3567553486883774 times.

IWND "At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule...." How many models is a OL on a CCW?

I agree with that statement in principle. However, GW makes it clear they do not. ""If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"""

They clearly state that the model is separate from the chariot for the purposes of the Phylactery.

I think that's their way of confirming that the IWND roll can return a wound to the Rider or a hull point to the Chariot. In practice, the comment adds nothing. Per standard rules, if the model has the rule (which it does... twice in fact!) it can regain a wound OR a hull point on a 5+.

It's very important to remember that the Rider on Chariot isn't a model embarked onto a Chariot... it's ONE model with a weird profile.

 Kriswall wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
It doesn't matter if the model has it once or 3567553486883774 times.

IWND "At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule...." How many models is a OL on a CCW?

I agree with that statement in principle. However, GW makes it clear they do not. ""If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"""

They clearly state that the model is separate from the chariot for the purposes of the Phylactery.

I think that's their way of confirming that the IWND roll can return a wound to the Rider or a hull point to the Chariot. In practice, the comment adds nothing. Per standard rules, if the model has the rule (which it does... twice in fact!) it can regain a wound OR a hull point on a 5+.

It's very important to remember that the Rider on Chariot isn't a model embarked onto a Chariot... it's ONE model with a weird profile.

Again, I dont disagree, however GW could have stated that either could use the IWND rule much simpler. Stating that BOTH gain the IWND seems clear they consider it two separate entities for the purposes regaining a HP and a Wound each phase.

Fragile wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
It doesn't matter if the model has it once or 3567553486883774 times.

IWND "At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule...." How many models is a OL on a CCW?

I agree with that statement in principle. However, GW makes it clear they do not. ""If the model is the rider of a chariot, both he and the chariot have the it will not die special rule"""

They clearly state that the model is separate from the chariot for the purposes of the Phylactery.

I think that's their way of confirming that the IWND roll can return a wound to the Rider or a hull point to the Chariot. In practice, the comment adds nothing. Per standard rules, if the model has the rule (which it does... twice in fact!) it can regain a wound OR a hull point on a 5+.

It's very important to remember that the Rider on Chariot isn't a model embarked onto a Chariot... it's ONE model with a weird profile.

Again, I dont disagree, however GW could have stated that either could use the IWND rule much simpler. Stating that BOTH gain the IWND seems clear they consider it two separate entities for the purposes regaining a HP and a Wound each phase.

Again I would like to bring this back to my post:

It's still one model so it's only one roll. I think GW gave them both IWND is so if you have full starting wounds but not hull points you can roll on the chariot to regain hull points, and not get any arguments of "your overlord doesn't have hull points so he can't regain them" or vice versa, but causes this question to be raised.

GW has also "clearly" stated that chariots and riders don't share special rules in the Deamon and Space wolves chariots. So while if GW just said in the rules that they could share special rules it could have been simpler but in following the precedent they set, both the rider and the chariot need IWND for them both be able to regain said damage marker but because it is one model it gets one roll.

Fragile wrote:
Again, I dont disagree, however GW could have stated that either could use the IWND rule much simpler. Stating that BOTH gain the IWND seems clear they consider it two separate entities for the purposes regaining a HP and a Wound each phase.

No, GW did not give the rule to both so that they could roll separately.

The purpose of the rule is because if it was worded differently, this question would arise:

Can the character roll IWND and regain a hull point for the chariot?
Long Dakka debate, and then the decision would probably be: NO, only the model has the rule, so only Wounds can be regained.

And the chariot would just be glanced to death and players would wonder why the wargear does not apply to Hull Points....

So GW fixed it: gave the rule to both.
Now you can roll and choose to regain a Hull Point OR a Wound !

 BlackTalos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Again, I dont disagree, however GW could have stated that either could use the IWND rule much simpler. Stating that BOTH gain the IWND seems clear they consider it two separate entities for the purposes regaining a HP and a Wound each phase.

No, GW did not give the rule to both so that they could roll separately.

The purpose of the rule is because if it was worded differently, this question would arise:

Can the character roll IWND and regain a hull point for the chariot?
Long Dakka debate, and then the decision would probably be: NO, only the model has the rule, so only Wounds can be regained.

And the chariot would just be glanced to death and players would wonder why the wargear does not apply to Hull Points....

So GW fixed it: gave the rule to both.
Now you can roll and choose to regain a Hull Point OR a Wound !

Except IWND already does that.

On a roll of 5+, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.

If someone asked that question and a chariot only had one instances of IWND, YMDC would probably answer, "you would be able to regain either a wound or hull point but never both at the same time since the rider and chariot are the same model". Saying that the Rider profile is a model is demonstrably untrue.

The addition of the rule twice is more than odd and seems to say that the intent was for two different rolls. We need an FAQ on it since one instance of IWND already covers both profiles and two instances does nothing more.

From 'A Compendium of Special Rules' in the 'Special Rules' section of the rulebook:

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.

So the question is, does the rule for the Phylactery giving It Will Not Die to both the Catacomb Command Barge and the Overlord worded sufficiently enough to allow the model to benefit from the special rule more than once.

what about the part of the chariot rules where it states that "any characteristics modifiers that affect a chariot model apply to both rider and chariot."

wouldn't that mean a successful IWND roll would affect both the chariots hull points and the riders wounds?

Meaning a +1 to wounds added to the rider would somehow translate into +1 hull point for the chariot?

Wouldn't that also mean -1 to wounds to the rider would somehow translate into -1 hull point for the chariot?

Hull points =/= Wounds

Your assuming the wording on IWND means a successful roll = +1 wound or +1 hull point, but what if it was to = +1 wound/hull point and its only worded as "a wound, or a hull point" so as to include hull points as an alternative for models that don't have wounds rather than suggesting that only one possibility can be realized?

Mainly because it doesn't matter. You are arguing a possible wording that wasn't used. It states one wound or one hull point.

It's not a possible wording, its an alternate use of the conjunction "or" to suggest the inclusive combination of alternatives.

There is no question here. Page 86, top of the page - "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model." IWND states "At the end of each of your turns, roll a d6 for each of your models."

The Chariot is only one model. Phylactery was specifically worded so there would be no argument to whether IWND effected both profiles and it does.

You can also take Living Metal, in addition to IWND and regain a possible 2 HP a turn.

 Whacked wrote:
There is no question here. Page 86, top of the page - "However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model." IWND states "At the end of each of your turns, roll a d6 for each of your models."

The Chariot is only one model. Phylactery was specifically worded so there would be no argument to whether IWND effected both profiles and it does.

You can also take Living Metal, in addition to IWND and regain a possible 2 HP a turn.

"A model with this special rule ignores the effects of Crew Shaken (but still loses a Hull Point). At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your Heavy or Super-heavy vehicles with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Hull Points, but has not been destroyed. On a roll of a 6, that model regains a Hull Point lost earlier in the game."

Emphasis added, and as the chariot is neither a heavy or super-heavy it will not regain hull points through living metal.

 Nilok wrote:

Except IWND already does that.

On a roll of 5+, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.

If someone asked that question and a chariot only had one instances of IWND, YMDC would probably answer, "you would be able to regain either a wound or hull point but never both at the same time since the rider and chariot are the same model". Saying that the Rider profile is a model is demonstrably untrue.

The addition of the rule twice is more than odd and seems to say that the intent was for two different rolls. We need an FAQ on it since one instance of IWND already covers both profiles and two instances does nothing more.

How could the chariot regain a Wound if only the Character has IWND? Sure it is 1 model, but if only 1 profile has the rule, then only 1 profile could be modified in Value (+1W).

I am not saying that the intent was to separate them as two models.
I am saying that if the intent WAS to separate the roll for two models, then giving the rule to both defeats it's own argument:

"They both have the rule: must mean they can both Roll" "No, they both have the Rule so both can regain a Wound or HP, you still roll once"

Or

"The model has the rule on both profiles, so both profiles can benefit from IWND"

Or

"The model is completely singular. It has IWND. I Resolve IWND upon the 1 model"

Whichever "side" you are on (2 models? 2 Profiles? 1 "dual"-profile?) the rule and intent work: You perform a single roll and can add 1 to Wounds OR HP.

Saying that only one profile can benefit from IWND on a Chariot if it was the only one with the rule is adding a restriction to the rule that it only works on a single profile. Such line of reasoning can easily also be used to say that an IWND on each profile would trigger independently.

The rider and the chariot both having IWND doesn't defeat its own argument, it just raises a big question about RAI since it doesn't fit into RAW unless Ghaz's idea is right and this is one of the few specifically stated times a model can benefit twice.

GW have been notorious for making assumptions on how the rules work, but when you read into them, they cause the rules to either break or do nothing. This is a case of the latter, we have something that adds its rule twice very specifically. This tells us it isn't just a misprint, but the second instance is already covered by the first.

 Nilok wrote:

Spoiler:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

Except IWND already does that.

On a roll of 5+, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.

If someone asked that question and a chariot only had one instances of IWND, YMDC would probably answer, "you would be able to regain either a wound or hull point but never both at the same time since the rider and chariot are the same model". Saying that the Rider profile is a model is demonstrably untrue.

The addition of the rule twice is more than odd and seems to say that the intent was for two different rolls. We need an FAQ on it since one instance of IWND already covers both profiles and two instances does nothing more.

How could the chariot regain a Wound if only the Character has IWND? Sure it is 1 model, but if only 1 profile has the rule, then only 1 profile could be modified in Value (+1W).

I am not saying that the intent was to separate them as two models.
I am saying that if the intent WAS to separate the roll for two models, then giving the rule to both defeats it's own argument:

"They both have the rule: must mean they can both Roll" "No, they both have the Rule so both can regain a Wound or HP, you still roll once"

Or

"The model has the rule on both profiles, so both profiles can benefit from IWND"

Or

"The model is completely singular. It has IWND. I Resolve IWND upon the 1 model"

Whichever "side" you are on (2 models? 2 Profiles? 1 "dual"-profile?) the rule and intent work: You perform a single roll and can add 1 to Wounds OR HP.

Saying that only one profile can benefit from IWND on a Chariot if it was the only one with the rule is adding a restriction to the rule that it only works on a single profile. Such line of reasoning can easily also be used to say that an IWND on each profile would trigger independently.

The rider and the chariot both having IWND doesn't defeat its own argument, it just raises a big question about RAI since it doesn't fit into RAW unless Ghaz's idea is right and this is one of the few specifically stated times a model can benefit twice.

GW have been notorious for making assumptions on how the rules work, but when you read into them, they cause the rules to either break or do nothing. This is a case of the latter, we have something that adds its rule twice very specifically. This tells us it isn't just a misprint, but the second instance is already covered by the first.

Do models benefit from the same special rules twice though? Do they stack? Two instances of Stealth, Shrouded, Furious Charge? I don't think they do. The interesting thing to think about is how the Overlord and the Chariot have their own "special rules" in the profile, they are separate for all intents and purposes even though they are one model. gak is weird. (My point here is that I don't think one model can use the same special rule twice, because even though there are two profiles, it would still be the same model using it twice)

 Whacked wrote:
Do models benefit from the same special rules twice though? Do they stack? Two instances of Stealth, Shrouded, Furious Charge? I don't think they do. The interesting thing to think about is how the Overlord and the Chariot have their own "special rules" in the profile, they are separate for all intents and purposes even though they are one model. gak is weird. (My point here is that I don't think one model can use the same special rule twice, because even though there are two profiles, it would still be the same model using it twice)

Its already been answered in this thread on whether a model can benefit from the same rule twice. Personally I think this is just another example of GW's poor grasp of grammar and should be read as allowing either the Overlord or the Catacomb Command Barge to benefit from the It Will Not Die rule. Of course, that's just my opinion and would be hard pressed to support that position with the RAW.