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 Ratius wrote:
Are all of the IA books up to date with 7th now barring Mymeara, Badab and Kastrel?

IA1 2E has been updated for post 5E vehicle mechanics, but is now in dire need of an update following the 6E "AM" book release, so it needs an update too as well despite being only being just over two years old.

Granted
but in terms of the "campaign" books?
IA2e was more individual units correct? (a compilation?)

 Opera wrote:
They don't even sell the Conqueror turret anymore but have released two books recently with updated rules...

Interestingly enough I actually have one of these and I got tired of it gathering dust so i converted it to a Vanquisher! Now I may have to move it back...

 Crabbit wrote:
Thanks Zingraff! If you feel up to it, a detailed review of the new DKK siege list or comparison to the old pdf siege list would be awesome!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/636671.page

 Aenarian wrote:
What are the stats of the Death Rider Company Commander, and is he a X points mandatory upgrade required for the Death Rider Detachment, or simply a bonus?

WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.

I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?

 Peregrine wrote:


WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.

Well, that's nice. I guess I can always invest in Death Riders. Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?

Well, I guess the last ones are true, but then again, normal guardsmen also beat Tau troops. You can basically only beat orkz if you charge, and the same goes with lesser tyranids. But y'know, a normal IG detachment could handily get one or two priests for their buffs, which would make them even better, because of Zealot, rerolls and other shenanigans.

Alcibiades wrote:
I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?

They don't have access to heavy weapons in the Infantry Squad units, they can't combine squads (so no blobs), they're still A1 base with S3 guns, they need to get an order off (on Ld7 or 8) from an accompanying Officer unit within 12" to get the "assault 2" lasguns, and they're 40% more than normal guardsmen. Even with all that, on a charge, the actual assault phase only very slightly favors the DKoK infantry over Slugga Boyz, and only for the first round of combat, and only on a 1 to 1 basis.

They're pretty garbage.

 Ratius wrote:
Granted
but in terms of the "campaign" books?
IA2e was more individual units correct? (a compilation?)

Yeah, it doesn't have a campaign, though it does have the Armoured Battlegroup army list.

 Vaktathi wrote:

They're pretty garbage.

Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?

 Aenarian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

They're pretty garbage.

Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?

Totally

By "Tau troops" I meant mainly Kroot.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

They're pretty garbage.

Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?

Nice one!

 Aenarian wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.

Well, that's nice. I guess I can always invest in Death Riders. Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?

The Death Rider has both a lance and CCW/pistol as standard equipment. The lance is used on the first charge and then spent.

Singleton Mosby wrote:

The Death Rider has both a lance and CCW/pistol as standard equipment. The lance is used on the first charge and then spent.

Yeah, I was just curious if the mounted Company Commander got it. It wouldn't have been a surprise if he didn't. Good to know they gave him something at least!

Alcibiades wrote:
By "Tau troops" I meant mainly Kroot.

Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
By "Tau troops" I meant mainly Kroot.

Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.

Not meaning to belabor the point , but there is a reason that I specified "in close combat on the charge with assault 2 lasguns"

Alcibiades wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
By "Tau troops" I meant mainly Kroot.

Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.

Not meaning to belabor the point , but there is a reason that I specified "in close combat on the charge with assault 2 lasguns"

Aye, there are a few very specific points and scenarios where DKOK will win assaults (assuming you don't kill too many, can't charge and are then shot up and charged yourself, ah the sillyness of such mechanics).

In truth though, the WS4 and, with IA12 who introduced it, Assault 2 Lasguns has more to do with tying the enemy up than actually killing them in assault. WS4 means most enemies who aren't re-rolling to hit are now only hitting 50% of the time, and some things you'll even get to hit back with 3s! Unlikely to wipe much in assault, but more likely to hang around while you shoot other things in their army and hold up dangerous assault units.

Now if only such an endeavour was remotely cost effecient.

Yeah, it doesn't have a campaign, though it does have the Armoured Battlegroup army list.

AB list is for Imp Guard?

 Ratius wrote:

Yeah, it doesn't have a campaign, though it does have the Armoured Battlegroup army list.

AB list is for Imp Guard?

Yeah, Leman Russ tanks for HQ/Elites/Troops, mechanized infantry, etc.

 Aenarian wrote:
Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?

Yes. All death riders come with pistol + CCW + lance, and the sergeants (or commander + commissar in command squads) may exchange their pistol and/or CCW for the usual sergeant upgrades.

My email to Forgeworld:


IA13 and Vraks Rules Problems

Imperial Armor 13 and Siege of Vraks: Second Edition Rules Questions
February 2015

Dear Forgeworld,

I am a proud Renegade and Heretics and Chaos Space Marines player who has purchased all of your Vraks books, the IA13 collector’s edition, and the Vraks second edition. However, I have spent the last several months facing many rules problems, typos, and ommissions that have popped up in these publications. I have discussed these problems with other players on major online communities and have compiled the following list of questions, which I hope you will address so that I can share them online. I have heard that you are currently working on FAQs and errata for these books, so I hope that this rather comprehensive list will ensure that you do not miss any problems when you ultimately release the FAQs.

1) The Arch Demagogue devotions state that an Arch Demagogue with a devotion must be the army’s warlord. This creates numerous problems considering that 7th edition allows for armies to contain multiple detachments of the same or different factions. I have heard of several other players who e-mailed Forge World and were told to ignore this requirement, and that any Arch Demagogue may take devotions and doesn’t have to be the Warlord. However, as it stands, the requirement raises the following concerns/questions:

-How does the Arch Demagogue Warlord requirement work when your army contains other characters that must also be the army’s warlord (for example, Abbadon)?

-How does this rule work when the Renegades & Heretics detachment is an Allied Detachment?
-If you take more than one Renegades & Heretics detachment (for example, one Combined Arms and one Formation), with two different Arch Demagogues, do you select among the Arch Demagogues to determine the warlord (as per the Warlord/Primary Detachment selection rules in the main rulebook)?

-Related to the above question and the apparent limitations regarding Warlord/Arch Demagogue requirements, it is hard to believe that Renegades and Heretics players are punished by being the only army/faction in all of Warhammer 40,000 that can only ever field one detachment in an overall army list (which may be comprised of multiple detachments). It would be more simple and convenient to remove the mandatory warlord requirement, instead replacing it with the following errata: “If selecting a Renegades and Heretics detachment as your army’s primary detachment, only the Arch Demagogue may be the Warlord. Any Arch Demagogue devotions or covenants only affect that Arch Demagogue’s own detachment.”

-If Forge World’s preferred solution is to simply remove the mandatory Warlord requirement and even to allow more than one Arch Demagogue per R&H detachment (as has been stated in some FW email responses I have seen shared online), does this mean that a particular R&H detachment may benefit from more than one Arch Demagogue devotion, so long as the player is willing to purchase additional Renegade Command Squads and additional Arch Demagogue devotions? (If yes, this would explain why the Renegade Command Squad is a 1+ entry, since otherwise buying additional Renegade Command Squads would be almost pointless save for the ability to stick an extra command vox net or banner in the squad).

2) The additional model costs seem off for several Renegades & Heretics entries and appear to be copy-pasted incorrectly. For example, on pg. 157 in IA13, the Renegade Marauder Squad costs 55 points base for 5 models – essentially 10 per model and 5 for the included champion upgrade. It therefore naturally costs +10 points for each additional Marauder. However, in some subsequent unit entries in the following pages, the additional model cost stays at +10 points even for squads that are priced very differently. In particular, 5 Renegade Disciples and 5 Renegade Infantry Veterans both cost 35 points for 5 models – in the case of the Disciples, this includes a built-in champion upgrade. This would indicate a cost of 6 points per Disciple and 7 points per Veteran. However, the additional model cost for both units is a hefty 10 points each. Is this a typo?

3) The Renegade Chaos Spawn can only ever be taken as Troops (if unlocked), so why are they listed under the Elites section? It seems these should be under Troops, as is the case with Plague Zombies.

4) Is it a mistake that chaos sigils and vox nets are lumped into the same upgrade category/restrictions as special weapons for Renegade squads? Unit in other armies are typically not forced to pick between special weapons versus morale/leadership purchases in their “per X models in the squad” upgrades.

5) Many of the weapons entries are missing, even the ones that are not listed as being referenced to exclusively in other books.

6) In the Renegade Infantry Veteran unit, there appears to be a typo – the squad’s champion is referred to by two different labels (Veteran Champion, Renegade Champion).

7) The Infernal Relic rule in IA13 does not appear to have been written correctly so as to function within the 7th edition detachment system. Specifically, it does not address what happens when taking an Infernal Relic in a detachment that is neither selected as the army’s Primary detachment but is also not an Allied type of detachment (Combined Arms, Formations, The Purge, etc.). Currently, because these units can be selected normally as per the stamps (Heavy Support, etc.) in IA13, and because the Infernal Relic rule simply states that “The following rules apply” and then only imposes selection limitations on Primary and Allied detachments and mentions no other types, technically this means that any other type of detachment can take these units normally with no limits (clearly not the intent).

Furthermore, the rule for Primary detachments also intrinsically does not make sense – army lists (including all of an army’s detachments and the units they contain) and point values are set prior to beginning a game. During game set-up, a player chooses the character to be the army’s Warlord – that character’s detachment then becomes the Primary Detachment. The current wording/rule incorrectly reverses the order, as detachments are composed prior to determining a Warlord/Primary (which can change from game to game in a tournament).

In my area, we have done the following with the Infernal Relic rule: the Allied Detachment rule stays the same, but the Primary Detachment limitation is changed to say “In any type of Detachment other than an Allied Detachment” and the Warlord component is removed. In other words, Combined Arms and other types of detachments all always face the same restriction: they can take one Infernal Relic normally, but if the detachment contains one or more of the appropriate HQ choices, the detachment may contain more than one Infernal Relic (reflecting that these detachments types are more substantial than smaller Allied Detachments, and could be selected as the Primary Detachment). Is this an appropriate solution for the Infernal Relic rule?

8) Can a player fielding a The Purge Formation select both Chaos Space Marines as well as Renegades and Heretics units within the same detachment/formation, or must each The Purge Formation be exclusively comprised of units from one or the other?

9) The Vraksian Renegades list includes the option to take Renegade Marauders if no covenant is chosen for the Arch Demagogue, but the entry for this unit appears to be missing from the book. Is this omission an error?

10) On a loyalist note, is the Vraks Second Edition book supposed to omit the Imperial Air Navy Support Squadron entry?

11) In the IA13 Legacies of Ruin entries, there appear to be four “Vessel” upgrades tied to each of the four chaos deities, plus a fifth entry that appears to be a daemon themed around Chaos Undivided (Auloth the Primordial Iterator). However, that upgrade’s rule refers to the Icon of Wrath (related to Nurgle, and already included in one of the other upgrades). Is Auloth the Primordial Iterator supposed to instead refer to the Icon of Vengeance (the generic Chaos Icon)?

12) In IA13, there seems to be a typo on p.152- it should refer to an Arch Demagogue and not a Demagogue.

13) Is it an error that a Renegade Command Squad can only ever purchase one special weapon and one heavy weapon, as opposed to 1 per 5 models as with most other units in the army list?

14) The Master of the Horde devotion states that eliminated Renegade Infantry Squads that are “returned to play” go into Reserves. Is this supposed to state that they go into “ongoing Reserves?” In other words, are the units returned to play meant to automatically return the following turn, or do they have to do reserves rolls to come in on turns 2 and 3?

15) When using the Master of the Horde devotion in a Combined Arms Detachment (which grants troop units Objective Secured), do eliminated Renegade Infantry Squads that are “returned to play” (minus any transports) retain the Objective Secured benefit? Or do they lose it because they were not the original units “purchased” in the detachment, despite being otherwise identical to the destroyed Renegade Infantry Squads they replace?

16) Is the squad-wide Carapace Armor upgrade for the Renegade Command Squad meant to include the squad’s Arch Demagogue? Currently it only covers the Disciples, and the Arch Demagogue has to pay an additional cost to also get the same armor.

17) I have heard from others who have emailed Forgeworld that the Power Drill uses the same stats and rules as the Lascutter: STR - 9, AP-2, TYPE - MELEE, UNWIELDY, CUMBERSOME (A model using a weapon with the Cumbersome rule can only ever make a single attack at WS 1 in any Assault phase, regardless of their profile or any other bonus or special rule). Is this correct?

18) The Vraks Daemon Lord entries for Nurgle and Khorne are identical for those in IA13 except that the onerous 25% point maximum requirement is removed. Will there be errata removing this requirement from the IA13 Daemon Lords entries as well?

11) Icon of wrath is Khorne not Nurgle..

Concerning the two new DKK detachments...

Are either the DR or Gorgon detachments meant to be taken anywhere outside Apoc games? I mean a DKK siege or assault list can already field upwards of 195 DRs (~3000 pts.) in the primary detachment alone. To benefit from the the Gorgon detachment you need to atleast max out the carrying capacity; otherwise, why would you pay for such an expensive transport? For one simple, infantry loaded Gorgon, this comes out to ~1000 points. It seems to me, for the Gorgon detachment to hit it's stride, you need to take a couple Gorgons (>2000 pts.)

Are there any good arguments for taking these detachments in normal 40k games?

The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.

The Gorgon Detachment is basically gak and should never be used. You pay almost as much as a Stormlord for something that's slightly more durable (due to 4++ and IWND) and has less shooting capabilities than a Leman Russ.

 Aenarian wrote:
The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.

Thanks for the clarification. The DR detachment sounds better then I thought!

 Crabbit wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.

Thanks for the clarification. The DR detachment sounds better then I thought!

And apart from that, Death Riders are just ace. It is awesome to put mounted troops in numbers on a 40K table.

It would be double sweet if FW released a DR Colonel model to make that DRCCS really pop!

I'm really tempted to buy this, but I just got 13 a month ago, I'll have to hold off. The Vraks stuff is my favorite 40k "setting", if that makes any sense.

A quick question. Does the book have updated rules for Hector Rex, and if so, how are they different?

Edit: Never mind, amswered earlier in the thread

I'm really interested in using Death Riders in my army, what's holding me back is that I don't know how to transport them.

The miniatures are so slender and delicate, and with an added lance they just take up so much room.

I have 15 models that I bought less than a year ago, and I've worked on most of them, but what I can't figure out is whether I should glue the lances in place or not. If I make the lances detachable, the miniatures would be easier to store for transport, but the lances might fall off too easily when playing.

Magnets on the bottom of the bases and on a metal tray or a case that allows them to stay upright.

 Crabbit wrote:
It would be double sweet if FW released a DR Colonel model to make that DRCCS really pop!

If they would make one I will most certainly buy it. However, for now I will use the mounted commisar for the role. It is a suitable 'commanding' model, and paying Krieg you've no need for commisars anyways.

Alternatively you can always convert a command model yourself by replacing the upper part of the Rider's torso with that of the infantry platoon commander. I am at the moment working on such a model and it looks quite nice with the sword and pistol in hand. I'll post some pics as soon as I have something to show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zingraff wrote:
I'm really interested in using Death Riders in my army, what's holding me back is that I don't know how to transport them.

The miniatures are so slender and delicate, and with an added lance they just take up so much room.

I have 15 models that I bought less than a year ago, and I've worked on most of them, but what I can't figure out is whether I should glue the lances in place or not. If I make the lances detachable, the miniatures would be easier to store for transport, but the lances might fall off too easily when playing.

I transport them in foam trays, along with my tanks and centaurs. Haven't had any problems so far. They look flimsy but I only have had 'loose lances' on one or two occasions. Easily fixed.

I was thinking about making a conversion from the Death Korps Officer model, which would have the added benefit of giving me a standard I could use on the mounted command squad, as well as some additional infantry. But I wish that they still made the mounted Commissar.

As for transporting them, I'd refrain from gluing the lances. Yes, they might come loose during a game but its far better than them breaking off entirely.