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Does any of the actual fluff change - i have the old books?

thanks

 Crabbit wrote:
On another note, do Thunderer siege tanks still lack the Heavy vehicle rule?

They are not heavy.

 gmaleron wrote:
Thanks but that doesn't answer my question, I've only ever played with CAD, wanting to know if these follow the same rules or do I have to treat it like an allied detachment and have a CAD primary detachment with this as well?

There is no requirement to have a CAD primary detachment with an allied detachment. It sounds like you're still stuck in the pre-7th mindset of having a single FOC for your army and then adding on "extra" stuff. This isn't true at all anymore. If you're taking a battle-forged army the only requirement is that your army be composed of detachments. The CAD is not special in any way, it's just one possible choice among many. You can have a formation and an allied detachment, three formations, a CAD and a DKoK Gorgon detachment, ten CADs, etc. And the allied detachment does not require a CAD, it just can't have your warlord in it and it can't have the same faction as whatever detachment does have your warlord in it.

Now that we've settled the apparent rule question the answer to whether the DKoK detachments require a CAD is no, they don't. Neither detachment requires the presence of any other detachment or formation in your army.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Does any of the actual fluff change - i have the old books?

thanks

I'm not sure since I just skimmed it (I've already read the original books and don't feel like re-reading the same story again) but it looks like everything is pretty much the same. It might not be a literal copy/paste from the other three books but you probably won't get much out of the new edition if you've already got the original books and don't need the new rules.

I just got my book a few minutes ago, I'll try to write up a review like I did for IA12 and IA13 later today. Overall it's a rather thick book, I'm interested to see how it compares with the original trilogy.

Kinda sad the DKoK Armoured Battlegroup didn't make it in :(

 Vaktathi wrote:
I just got my book a few minutes ago, I'll try to write up a review like I did for IA12 and IA13 later today. Overall it's a rather thick book, I'm interested to see how it compares with the original trilogy.

Kinda sad the DKoK Armoured Battlegroup didn't make it in :(

Great, thanks Vaktahi! If you post your review else where please link it here.

Yeah, I would love to see FW update the ABG to 7th.

Ok, so instead of doing another thread on the deal, I'll simply do my review here, particularly as it will be somewhat smaller than my IA12 and IA13 review given that this is a reprint and largely copy-paste of both of those books. IA12 review and IA13 review

TL;DR: Fluff abridged, units and armies are mostly slight rejiggling of IA12 & IA13 army lists, and some character updates.

Ok so first off, when it comes to fluff in this book, it appears to mostly be intact with some abridgements. The bit about the 158th Siege Regiment has simply been condensed down to a short blurb about their attack having "collapsed", I don't recall seeing anything of the fate of the Sisters of Battle who previously in IA:VII were put to merciful execution in internal inquisition revenge politics, etc. The long, in-depth details of the background of Krieg & the detailed description of each unit is no longer included (e.g. bits about Grenadiers having an 80% casualty rate, etc). Things like that.

Ultimately, for anyone already familiar with the factions and story, it's not too much of a drag, but lacks the richness and depth of the previous trilogy for the uninitiated.

As for units and army lists, I'll start with the DKoK army list.

To start off with, the Special Rules are identical to those in IA12. Ignores 25% casualty tests, WS4, can regroup regardless of casualties if within 6" of an officer.

There is no Forlorn Hope

As for Orders, it's largely the same lot. Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight, FRFSRF are all identical to IA12 (including FRFSRF not applying to hotshot lasguns and Bring It Down being the 2009 IG Codex's version not the updated AM book's version). Clear the Trenches is almost identical to IA12's Without Mercy is that they get Move Through Cover instead of Crusader. The one big difference is instead of Disperesed Advanced with a new order called Dig In, which gives +1 to cover saves so long as it's not in a fortification and prevents units from Running or Assaulting that turn.

So, overall, not terribly exciting, outdated and half of them pointless.

Now, Warlord Traits. Good news, they're thematically paired with those from the Assault Brigade. Bad news, they're largely just as bad.

Unflinching Defense: Warlord and DKoK units within 12" get +1 to combat resolution while in their own deployment zone
Shattering Bombardment: Identical to that in IA12, TL's one ordnance weapon within 6" of Warlord
Victory or Death: Gains Fearless and very weak FNP wehn in fortification or cover provided by defense lines
Smoke Barrage: Identical to IA12, makes it Night Fight for first turn.
Martyr's Defiance: Preferred Enemy (Infantry) for Warlord and units with 6" when in a friendly deployment zone
Siege master: Identical to a Warpsmith's Shatter Defenses rule.

Units

HQ

Company Command Squad
Identical to IA12. The one exception is that the advisors are identical to those in the Astra Militarum book except there is no Astropath or Quartermaster options. Unit still costs an arm and a leg, no Storm Chimera access. Still costs almost as much as a naked Valkyrie and includes a Regimental Standard

Commissar-General
Identical to AM book largely.

Death Korps Quartermaster Cadre
Identical to IA12, largely pointless, gives a very weak FNP bubble for units within 6".

Elites

Grenadiers
Identical to IA12, no Storm Chimera option, only transport is Centaur for 5man squads.

Hydra Flak Platform
AV10 2HP immobile Hydra platform, not open topped though. Costs similar to Taurox. Can only take 1 platform per FoC slot. Not terribly inspiring.

Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery
Identical to IA12. Solid awesome.

Field Artillery Battery
Identical to IA12, no Carcass shells, Thudd Gun retains rule about pinning tests even though they don't pin anything.

Troops

Infantry Platoon
Identical to IA12, no combined squads, no heavy weapons in infantry squads, each Infantry Squad still costs more than a Chimera before upgrades, HWS's now match AM codex for price.
Unfortunately, these are rather awful, even worse with no Forlorn hope. For being an attrition based army, these guys are way too expensive to function in an attritional role.

Engineers
Identical to IA12. As Troops these guys are more interesting, and most importantly, the Hades Breaching Drill has been upgraded, which I'll get to shortly.

Dedicated Transports:

Centaur
Identical to IA12, still largely uninspiring.

Hades Breaching Drill
DT for Engineers. This thing is now entirely different and actually *Really* useful, though not quite as absurdly good as it once was a few years ago. Basically it attaches to an Engineer squad, and must start along with the unit in Reserve and Deep Strike in. When they DS in the whole unit has a 4++ Invul for the turn. It has a unique movement mode, Tunneling, may move 12" a turn and gains a 4++ invul save in any turn it Tunnels, but can't run or assault if it uses that in the movement phase. If it Tunnels in the Assault Phase, you roll 3d6 and pick the two lowest for charge distance. NO OVERWATCH against tunneling attacks, ignores all terrain and obstacles, and counts as having assault grenades. Breaching Drill then makes D6+2 Hammer of Wrath Attacks with its Melta-Cutter, and if it's against a building each model inside takes an S4 AP2 hit on a 4+. The Drill cannot be operated distinctly from the Engineers however, and if all the Engineers are killed, then the Drill is removed from play. Drill is no longer a vehicle, but has T, W and Sv identical to that of a Dark Eldar Talos.

This thing really fits the unit's role in a functional manner, expect to see lots of these.

Fast Attack:

Cyclops
As IA1 2E. independent roaming bomb, nothing too exciting.

Hellhound Squadron
As AM codex

Death Rider Platoon
Identical to IA12, so W2 4+sv A2 base 6++FNP Rough Riders with pistols & CCW on top of Lance.

Heavy Support

Thunderer
As IA1 2E, basically a BS3, Leman Russ-armored Vindicator.

Leman Russ Tank Squadron
As AM codex except Annihilator and Conqueror. Annihilator has TLLC and costs as much as an LRBT (uninspiring and 20pts more than its IA1 2E cost), Conqueror gets an S8 AP3 small blast weapon with the range of a lascannon, and is Fast, and costs 10pts less than a Hellhound, pretty awesome.

Heavy Weapons Platoon:
1-3 HWS's as per the Infantry Platoon. Not very inspiring, particularly as Lascannons here match the AM codex for cost instead of being slightly cheaper as in IA12

Colossus Bombard
Identical to old profile in IG codex/IA1 2E.

Heavy Artillery Battery:
As per IA1 2E & previous updates, but with DKoK crew & special rules, slightly more expensive extra crew models. very cheap, durable & killy.

Lords of War are limited to the following list
Baneblade
Valdor Tank Hunter
CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
Praetor Armored Assault Launcher
Gorgon Heavy Transporter
Malcador Heavy Tank
Malcador Defender
Malcador Annihilator
Malcador Infernus
Maruader Bomber (literally the only flyer available to the entire army)
Macharius
Macharius Vulcan
Macharius Vanquisher


Now, there's two Detachments for the DKoK Siege Regiment

First is the Death Rider Squadron
Minimum of 1 HQ and 2 FA.
May take additional 1HQ, 2 Troops, 4 Elites, 4 Fast Attack, 4 Heavy Support, 1 Lord of War

Command Benefits
Objective Secured
Thundering Charge: If two or more Death Rider units declare a charge against the same unit in a turn, they get Fear (um...not so useful)
Death Rider Command: May upgrade *one* Death Rider platoon command to a Death Rider CCS for the cost of a Taurox, must be the Warlord, Officer gets 5+ FNP and Colonel statline, and his unit may take a regimental standard for free.

This is an interesting formation, but I don't think ti's special rules are really particularly useful at all.

Then there's the Gorgon Assault Squadron Detachment
MIn 1HQ, 1 Elites, 1 Troops, 1 Lord of War
May take additional 1 HQ, *9* Troops, 2 Elites, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy Support, 3 Lord of War

All Lord of War choices *must* be Gorgons.

Command Benefits
Objective Secured
Unstoppable Advance: as long as a Gorgon has a DKoK unit embarked, it gains It Will Not Die
Fix Bayonets!: Any unit that disembarks from a Gorgon and declared a charge on the same turn gets Furious Charge for the turn.

This detachment is somewhat amusing, I'm not convinced that the Gorgons are really that useful, especially multiples, but it is somewhat amusing to envision.




Now for the Renegades and Heretics

Special Rules
Identical in their entirety to IA13, Uncertain Worth (D6+5 LD for each unit), etc. Only Covenant of Khorne and Nurgle permitted.

Demagogue Devotions:
Primaris Rogue Witch, Arch-Heretic Revolutionary, & Master of the Horde are both identical to IA13.
Ordnance Tyrant - can take STrike, Artillery, Bombard, and Heavy Ordnance batteries as Elites & HS. Can take Field Artillery Batteries as non-compulsory Troops. Additionally, any weapon with both the Barrage & Blast rules that fire within 12" of the Demagogue can, so long as the blast template hole is centered entirely over an enemy model, place the template such that friendly units are under/touching it and can target enemy units locked in close combat Holy snap! this looks hideously ridiculous
Shock Legion Taskmaster Can take Ogryn Brute units as Troops and *must* take them for compulsory troops. Ogryns taken this way are not scoring and do not benefit from ObSec. Warlord gets +1WS and a Neural Goad that can inflict unsavable wounds on an Ogryn unit within 12" and give them FUrious Charge and Fleet until the start of the next turn

Renegade Warlord Traits
All exactly identical to IA13

Units

HQ

Renegade Command Squad
Identical to IA13 except no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options

Rogue Psyker Coven
Identical to IA13

Renegade Enforcer's Cadre
Identical to IA13

Elites:

Renegade Chaos Spawn:
Identical to IA13

Renegade Disciple Squad
Identical to IA13

Renegade Ogryn Brutes
Identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options

Renegade Blood Slaughterers
Identical to IA13

Renegade Blight Drones
Identical to IA13

Troops

Renegade Infantry Platoon
identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options

Renegade Infantry Veterans
identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options

Renegade Mutant Rabble
identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options

Plague Zombie Mob[b]
Identical to IA13

[b]Dedicated Transport

Chimera
Identical to IA13

Fast Attack

Renegade Hellhound Squadron
Identical to IA13

Renegade Sentinel Squadron
Identical to IA13

Renegade Salamander Squadron
Identical to IA13

Heavy Support

Renegade Tank Squadron
Identical to IA13

Renegade Artillery Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Strike Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Hydra Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Bombard Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Support Squad
Identical to IA13

Renegade Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery
Identical to IA13

Renegade Field Artillery Battery
Identical to IA13

Lords of War are limited to the following list
Khorne Lord of Skulls
Greater Brass Scorpion
Daemon Lord Scabeiathrax the Bloated
Daemon Lord An'ggrath the Unbound
Giant Chaos Spawn
Spined Chaos Beast
Macharius Heavy Tank
Macharius Vulcan
Macharius Omega
Valdor Tank hunter
Renegade Malcador Heavy Tank
Renegade Miniotaur Artillery Tank
Renegade Malcador Defender
Renegade Baneblade


Detachments

The Purge
Units may be taken from the Renegades or Chaos Space Marine army lists
Min 1HQ 2 TElites
Optional 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 4 Elites, 4 Heavy Support, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War
Restrictions:
Slaves to Darkness All units must have the Chaos Renegades or CHaos Space Marine Faction
Pledged to Nurgle No units may have a mark/devotion other than Nurgle

Command Benefits
Salt the Earth: any time a unit from this detachment fires a weapon with both the Barrage & Blast rules, leave the template after resolving the attack until the beginning of your next turn, and the area of the template remains Dangerous Terrain until then
Forbidden Munitions: May upgrade flamers or heavy flamers to chemical flamers (profile identical to normal Flamer with Shred and Gets Hot), may upgrade missile launchers to Chemical Rockets and fire as S4 AP5 Small Blast, Shred, Gets Hot!. Both upgrades are free.

This detachment is quite interesting, allowing you to mix both army lists freely. Not sure how I feel about that, but it certainly opens a lot of possibilities.

Unending Host
Min 1HQ, 4 Troops
Optional: 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 2 Elites, 1 FA, 1 HS, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War

Restrictions: only Chaos Renegades, Warlord must be Demagogue with Master of the Horde Devotion

Command Benefits
In Numbers Uncounted: Renegade Infantry Squads recycle on 2+ instead of 5+
Over the Corpses of the Slain: Recycling Renegade Infantry Squads gain Outlank, roll 2d6-take-highest for Run moves on any turn they move on from reserves
TIl the Guns Run Dry: If the unit benefits from a cover save due to enemy units firing through another friendly Renegade Infantry Squad, cover save is increased to 3+ from 5+.

This army list is truly the hordiest of horde lists in all of 40k. Tyranids can only dream of the numbers this army can bring to the table and ensure they keep coming on.

If anyone has questions on the Characters, feel free to ask, just don't feel like going over them in detail right now.

The Purge sounds... Awesome I think!! Really opens up alot of units for a nurgle player like me.

I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.

Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.

Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?

Not to mention each unit being half the price of a DKoK infantry squad

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.

Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?

Use these rules with DKoK models! Not a bad idea, huh?

 Rippy wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.

Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?

Use these rules with DKoK models! Not a bad idea, huh?

A serious possibility.

Only problem is a good chunk of my current army's points comes from Leman Russes, which I could only run with in this list. I'll experiment, as Emperor knows I wouldn't lose much by using the alternate rules.

I just got my copy last night as well. I will just make a few comments and ideas I came up with. Most of it is similar to what the rest of you came up with.

BTW I emailed last night and got a rules answer in the morning. That is some great customer service.


Fore the DKoK portion;
*Overall this list is pretty poorly balanced. They have massively overcosted most of the units for dubious at best "upgrades". What was good is pretty much unchanged, however some of the mediocre or bad stuff actually became really good. My biggest disappointment with the list is that not having the Astra Militarum orders. Some of the new orders are good (dig in is actually really good). However not having easy ignore cover is going to be a factor keep this army from competing in the big leagues.
*The DKoK death rider detachment is actually really good. ObjSec Death Rider units are a very good source of scoring. They will be better in score as you go missions as you tend to find yourself in melee more when getting on an objective turn 1 can give points. However the real beauty of the detachment is the extra Elites and HS slots and the ability to avoid wasting points on a CCS and Troops which in the DKoK siege list are pretty awful.
*The hades assault drill units are just a wonderfully designed unit. They are fast when you want them to be. They can be made reasonably shooty but are naturally a very brutal melee threat. You can attach characters and bring them into the fun. The funniest part is when you sacrifice a couple of engineers the unit becomes ridiculously durable. I am liking the HF team + flamer with the rest of the squad being sacrifices. The watchmaster w/ melta bombs + meltagun could also be a nice unit to help mess up imperial knights. The coolest part about the unit is that you can always use it as a 12" movement 4+ invulnerable harassment and scoring unit.

Renegades and Heretics - Vraks
*When I first looked through this a saw IA13 having lost it's best scoring unit in return for some niche rules and units. Then I looked at the Ordnance Tyrant and could see how the list could but fun but I was still not convinced. Then I looked at the detachments...wow.
*The Ordnance Tyrant! If you are like me you usually struggled to fill out your points with a single CAD. The HS slots are so heavily laden in the IA13 list and the units so cheap that I can easily use 3 CADs to make an 1850 pts army. The OrdTy fixes a lot of that. He allows you to take field artillery in the troops slots (does not fulfill minimum requirements) and heavy artillery carriages and Wyverns in your Elites slots, thus freeing the HS slots for rapier batteries Then he goes a step further and allows models within 12" of him to drop barrage templates on enemy units engaged in CC. Like I said though it doesn't get awesome until you get to detachments.
*So the Purge detachment is pretty cool on it's own. It is an extra CSM detachment to allow CSM to get more HQs in a 2 detachment event. It has some really cool rules like chem flamers and dangerous terrain barrage. It even has some extra slots. It gets downright amazing though when you consider how this interacts with the OrdTy. You get so many slots to put artillery in that you can MSU your artillery. How about thud guns putting down 4 dangerous terrain templates on every enemy unit every turn? A big zombie unit could also be an excellent way to tie a key unit up while you lay into it with heavy artillery carriages. A lot of the weaknesses of an artillery line a nicely masked by putting dangerous terrain down all over the board and being able to shoot into your speed bumps.
*The Unending Host is aptly named. It is what every endless tide of footsloggers grinding your enemy down through attrition wishes it was. The funniest part is with chaos sigils in the units you don't even have to worry about getting pinned and loosing the use of a unit. Just charge forward and drown the opponent in bodies. This really is an army that finds the support of a nice CSM allies as a huge boon. A simple kharne + 4 meltagun chosen in dreadclaw and a fire raptor is game changing when added to this army. I am not so convinced of its complete superiority over forlorn hope but it is a heck of a lot more dynamic and fun to play than the DKoK assault brigade as stuff is happening every turn with no down turns. I am also thinking that you will have to be careful not to take too many bodies so that you end up squeezing yourself out of spacing and control.

I need to make some Engineers with heavy flamers. The Hades being useable again is going to make them excellent units.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I need to make some Engineers with heavy flamers. The Hades being useable again is going to make them excellent units.

They totally are.

The interesting thing is that you can take a number of different types of engineer units and decide who gets the hades during deployment.

I am currently wondering whether small units to maximize drills and special/heavy weapons are better or larger units to increase the durability. The ability to move 12" and gain a 4+ invulnerable save means the unit is actually pretty durable for the pts cost. You can also play some nice games with the right allies such as karamov dropping templates on the unit while it has a 4+ invulnerable and the right inquisitor can do a lot for the unit both in CC and outside CC. Just imagine adding an incinerator to the unit and zipping it around the board with 12" moves.

Engines with meltas work well, throw either poison or krak 'nades depending on your targets

As far as I remember (not next to the book) the poison bombs never make any mention of the grenade rules. Thus you could throw a krak grenade and a poison bomb.

Wouldn't the Hades' T7 suffer from the 'majority toughness' of the unit of engineers. Because of which it dies quite easily?

Acid Gas Bombs are counted as unusual grenades, and yes, the Hades Drill should suffer from majority toughness.

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Wouldn't the Hades' T7 suffer from the 'majority toughness' of the unit of engineers. Because of which it dies quite easily?

Might have the artillery unit type

 CrownAxe wrote:

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Wouldn't the Hades' T7 suffer from the 'majority toughness' of the unit of engineers. Because of which it dies quite easily?

Might have the artillery unit type

Unit type = infantry.

The Hades T7 does suffer from majority toughness until you "sacrifice" enough of the engineer unit to leave the drill and a single model. This actually isn't as hard as you might think as the drill has a 3+ armour save and is rarely ID due to T7. Just put all the models except 1 in front of the drill.

Even when the drill unit is T3 though they are either a 12" ignore terrain movement and 4+ invulnerable save unit or they are hitting extremely hard with HoW attacks. The clincher is that the drill does HoW attacks and gives no overwatch when it uses it's assault ability. This leaves most units hard pressed to do meaningful damage in the assault phase as you will average 4 unsaved wounds on most units at I10. Even an imperial knight will not find this a fun experience. Interestingly enough the HoW autohitting could make this an annoying counter to grav stars, it takes a full centurion grav star with prescience to kill a 10 engineer unit with drill on average. That actually isn't bad when you consider that 3 drill units and a comms relay is relatively cheap and could make an entirely decent base for an army.

 ansacs wrote:
The Hades T7 does suffer from majority toughness until you "sacrifice" enough of the engineer unit to leave the drill and a single model. This actually isn't as hard as you might think as the drill has a 3+ armour save and is rarely ID due to T7. Just put all the models except 1 in front of the drill.

That sounds like a very good method to keep it alive. Does a Heavy flamer team cousts as a single model for this purpose?

I haven't tried out the new Hades but guess it will be a priority target of anyone when it pops up behind enemy lines.

The Heavy Weapons team is a single model, so yes, it would count as a single model with the Bulky rule for all purposes.

Unending Host
Min 1HQ, 4 Troops
Optional: 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 2 Elites, 1 FA, 1 HS, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War

Restrictions: only Chaos Renegades, Warlord must be Demagogue with Master of the Horde Devotion

Command Benefits
In Numbers Uncounted: Renegade Infantry Squads recycle on 2+ instead of 5+
Over the Corpses of the Slain: Recycling Renegade Infantry Squads gain Outlank, roll 2d6-take-highest for Run moves on any turn they move on from reserves
TIl the Guns Run Dry: If the unit benefits from a cover save due to enemy units firing through another friendly Renegade Infantry Squad, cover save is increased to 3+ from 5+.

This army list is truly the hordiest of horde lists in all of 40k. Tyranids can only dream of the numbers this army can bring to the table and ensure they keep coming on.

Holy Gods of Chaos!

This is....that's......
I....
Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was reading the Renegades & Heretics list last night, and worked out that you can take a Master of The Horde with a full command squad and over four hundred renegade militia in 1,500 points, even allowing for a few leadership upgrades.

I think we may now have the ultimate 'send in the next wave' army. About half the infantry is going to have to start in reserve just to fit in a normal deployment zone, but the fact that the respawned reserves come on from the flanks means that they actually get straight back into the fight, rather than spending 2-3 turns getting back to where they were when they died.

The idea of burying elite armies in a tidal wave of four hundred respawning bodies is disconcertingly tempting....

locarno24 wrote:

The idea of burying elite armies in a tidal wave of four hundred respawning bodies is disconcertingly tempting....

Especially if a large part of these are zombies with FNP 4+. I love it!

I will post some of the army lists I have come up with for this new list and detachments later today.

My current unending host is an army of 320 infantry models at 1850 pts. Every infantry unit is 14 renegades, 1 champ or demagogue w/ power axe and melta bombs, 1 chaos sigil, and krak grenades. I was tempted with the idea of just maxing out model count and "drowning" the board in units. However I soon realized a savy player will just block you with vehicles and MC that you cannot harm. Without proper upgrades most games will just devolve into a boring stalemate turn 2-3. Thus I made every unit capable of hurting any model in the game except flyers (whom cannot block my movement and stay safe). BTW the demagogue in the infantry squads is pretty decent, 4 attacks (5 on the charge) with a power axe is enough to get some very respectable work done.

At 320 models this army will fit most deploment zones just fine, you will however want to bunch them up and essentially shove the entire line forward for turn 1 movement. Once units start dying and coming back on in reserves is when you start gaining movement. If the opponent is so foolish as to not kill units then you leave the champ and sigil for last so your units don't fail morale (thus causing a movement obstacle or loosing you movement) and you maintain the majority of your damage potential. With the sigils the opponent will be forced to kill 13 models just to get to important bits of the unit.

How this army wins games is by either pushing the opponent so deep into their deployment zone they cannot see objectives or killing everything with ObjSec and then flooding the objectives. KP missions are essentially impossible to win with this type of army. Luckily I pretty much always play ITC missions or modified maelstorm. This is one of the reasons I think power axes, melta bombs, and krak grenades are necessary. They are a psychological weapon rather than a damage dealer. Most of the big lists in 40K right now have several units in them that could wade into 30 cultists without these and survive 5-6 turns. Consider a drop pod list. The SM player is savy so they DS their pods in front of your units such that they create a line you have to go around. They can then use their ObjSec marines to run to objectives. When you finally manage to walk your way through the pods to the objectives you will struggle to kill the marines before the game ends. The marines are ObjSec while you are not thus the SM player wins. Every time with essentially no luck on the dice required.

Now even with the grenades, etc. the units are only moderately threatening. In reality most lists would be better served with holding their ground and then moving out to claim objectives while taking their licks. However, most players will retreat when 22 units all of which can kill any model in the game are coming at them. Essentially it boils down to how hard the mental calculation is. For example whether my Imperial Knight should wade in or not; with the no upgrades list 0 damage over 6 turns is easy while with the melta bombs 0.4 HP and 12% explodes per champ over 6 turns is hard. I have to consider can I snipe the melta bombs out fast enough not to have a dead knight in 2-3 turns and whether the time the knight buys killing and holding up that sector of the board is worth probably loosing the knight. If I can lock down the majority of the units from meaningful forward progress then the answer is actually charging the knight in. The funniest example of this is a pask punisher unit who is actually better served not shooting the no upgrades list and just occupying space


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, BTW I have more answers from forgeworld;


That actually makes the vets with hades drill units amazing tank hunters. Carapace, 2 meltaguns and 10 bodies with meltabombs w/ drill for under 170 pts. This units is pretty much guaranteed to kill an imperial knight and has a very decent chance to catch one.

For those who missed it in my thread here on Dakka, I heard back from FW about a lot of IA:13 and IA: Vraks questions about a week ago. Here is a link to the same info on B&C:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304162-ia13-vraks-2nd-faqerrata-from-forgeworld/

Maybe I missed this. Does the Hades only have HoW attacks or can it attack back if charged?

I can't find a rule stating it's unable to attack normally, so I guess it should be able to fight.

 Crabbit wrote:
Maybe I missed this. Does the Hades only have HoW attacks or can it attack back if charged?

It can attack, just not very effectively. It does get the melta cutter weapon profile but it only has a single WS 2 attack at I1 on its basic stat line. The D6+2 HoW hits only apply when you charge and can use HoW. IOW, you really want to charge.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:
Maybe I missed this. Does the Hades only have HoW attacks or can it attack back if charged?

It can attack, just not very effectively. It does get the melta cutter weapon profile but it only has a single WS 2 attack at I1 on its basic stat line. The D6+2 HoW hits only apply when you charge and can use HoW. IOW, you really want to charge.

Seems like the Hades HoW could be easily countered by a counter-assault since it cannot DS-attack. Mathammer says it has an average charge distance of 9 or 10, add on 6 for movement, and that is an average max of 15 -16" for charge distance. Lots of other units (e.g. bikes, beast, calvary, etc.) can out charge the Hades. I suppose it's effectiveness really depends on who you are up against and whether they know what is about to hit them.

Anyone have a chance to test it out in game?