Do you think GW will ever fix Space Marine Terminators

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**Martel732**

Lobukia wrote:
T5 or +1 wound

And allow them to have assault 4 bolters. Then they'd earn their points.

S4 shooting is still bad, though.

**Lobokai**

Martel732 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
T5 or +1 wound

And allow them to have assault 4 bolters. Then they'd earn their points.

S4 shooting is still bad, though.

Yeah, I saw someone recommend giving terminator bolters heavy bolter stats. Not a bad idea.

**MadSoul**

kronk wrote:
Tinchebrai wrote:
Could give them an extra wound.

Boom. Two wounds, like obliterators. Some of the Forge World HH terminators have 2 wounds (World Eaters and Salamanders come to mind). They seemed reasonably costed for it, too.

Sure, they'll get doubled out by Str8 and higher, but then getting hit in the face with a meltagun should hurt...

2 wounds seems like the simplest solution to me. Paladins seem to have the survivability that terminators ought to.

**dethric**

MadSoul wrote:
kronk wrote:
Tinchebrai wrote:
Could give them an extra wound.

Boom. Two wounds, like obliterators. Some of the Forge World HH terminators have 2 wounds (World Eaters and Salamanders come to mind). They seemed reasonably costed for it, too.

Sure, they'll get doubled out by Str8 and higher, but then getting hit in the face with a meltagun should hurt...

2 wounds seems like the simplest solution to me. Paladins seem to have the survivability that terminators ought to.

Assuming that Chaos Terminators would get the same treatment it would be a lot of annoying book keeping to keep track of the wounds of up to 10 models. The same proposal came up in a similar thread (How to improve marines).

I think it is hard for GW to do large changes to things like Tac Marines, Terminators, Devastators, and everything else that is shared between codices, since if something is changed, it should preferably be done in all codices at the same time. I do not think that terminators should be buffed at all honestly, buffing units can be a lazy way of balancing and causes power creep. A better solution might be to lower the availability of ap2 weapons.

**Mr Morden**

I'd prefer them to go back to mix and match Terminator Squads

**BoomWolf**

The first terminator issue is the forced power fists. Nobody needs that many.

"budget " terminators like CSM, SW and GK works perfectly, because they are not forced to take an expensive fist for each member, and can settle for power weapons.
Not to mention having more versatile options.

If codex and BA terminators were the same, they too would be decent.

**natpri771**

They definitely need to make shooty terminators more playable:
1. Give them access to combi-weapons (storm Bolter versions)
2. Increase strength and toughness to 5
3. Either give them 2 wounds, feel no pain, a 4+ invul or remove the invul and give them a special rule that says AP2/1 weapons just force you to re-roll your successful armour saves
4. Give them power weapons by default and let the sergeant take a power/chain fist

However, it seems GW is very hostile to the concept of new sprues.

**j31c3n**

make storm bolters salvo 2/4

20x bolter rounds at 24" from a relentless platform is nothing to sneeze at

then give tactical termies power weapons by default instead of power fists, with the option to upgrade to fists for x points per model

reduce point cost

done

**Arnais**

Why are they broken? Taking into consideration that SM dispose of assault vehicles and means to deploy them where they want? My wraithguard have a 12' gun, the CC variants are always worse than the other armies equivalent, no assault vehicle, no DS, 1 attack, 3+ armor save, no inv save or 5+ at best with a crappy unwieldy axe. Ok T6, which makes a litle more durable against small arms but completly dead against the usual things people use to kill Terminators, like plasma, laser cannons etc.

**vipoid**

natpri771 wrote:
They definitely need to make shooty terminators more playable:
1. Give them access to combi-weapons (storm Bolter versions) Do strom-bolter combi-weapons even exist? .
2. Increase strength and toughness to 5 Unnecessary.
3. Either give them 2 wounds, feel no pain, a 4+ invul or remove the invul and give them a special rule that says AP2/1 weapons just force you to re-roll your successful armour saves Entirely unnecessary.
4. Give them power weapons by default and let the sergeant take a power/chain fist Why not just let them mix and match power fists, rather than only allowing the sergeant one?.

However, it seems GW is very hostile to the concept of new sprues.

j31c3n wrote:
make storm bolters salvo 2/4

20x bolter rounds at 24" from a relentless platform is nothing to sneeze at

then give tactical termies power weapons by default instead of power fists, with the option to upgrade to fists for x points per model

reduce point cost

done

I'd be fine with that, though you'd need to be careful in terms of improving terminators that are already good (e.g. GK ones) with the storm bolter buff. Likewise, GK SMs may not approve of making Storm Bolters Salvo - as it would screw them over with both range and the ability to assault after shooting.

Maybe give SM/DA terminators a different default weapon (a Cyclone Bolter or somesuch), with the profile you suggest?

**j31c3n**

Arnais wrote:
Why are they broken? Taking into consideration that SM dispose of assault vehicles and means to deploy them where they want? My wraithguard have a 12' gun, the CC variants are always worse than the other armies equivalent, no assault vehicle, no DS, 1 attack, 3+ armor save, no inv save or 5+ at best with a crappy unwieldy axe. Ok T6, which makes a litle more durable against small arms but completly dead against the usual things people use to kill Terminators, like plasma, laser cannons etc.

tactical terminators cost too much for what they are and players are forced to pay for suboptimal weapons loadouts that they don't want (powerfists, in this case)

their 2+ armor save is easily circumvented by easy access to AP2 in almost every codex

they have 1 wound and toughness 4

**Mr Morden**

j31c3n wrote:
make storm bolters salvo 2/4

20x bolter rounds at 24" from a relentless platform is nothing to sneeze at

then give tactical termies power weapons by default instead of power fists, with the option to upgrade to fists for x points per model

reduce point cost

done

Is that all Storm Bolters or just Terminator mounted ones?

**Mumblez**

I think another wound would do the trick. However, the problem is that if you change the basic termies, hammernators get even better. I don't think that can be fixed as long as SS grants a 3++ save.

**koooaei**

You should be careful with buffing stormbolters as they're present on many sm vehicles. Droppods, Rhinos. Must bump the price if you make them 2 times more effective. They'd actually be better than heavy bolters this way. Don't get me wrong - they should be good. You'll just need to adjust the price accordingly. Like 40+ pt droppods and rhinos base and stuff like that.

**Big Blind Bill**

koooaei wrote:
RiTides wrote:

Ailaros, if there are hundreds of threads on the same subject, it probably has some validity!

There are hundreds of threads on the subject of tactical marines being bad. Yet, a roster with nothing but droppod tactical marines + Calgar got 2-d at BAO.

Actually it goes beyond this, in the top 10 there were 3 players who each ran a mighty 5 tactical squads in either rhinos (WS) or drop pods (ultramarines). They ranked 2nd, 5th and 8th, so a pretty good showing for the tac marines.
(Their success might have had more to do with calgar + UM chapter tactics and hit and run though).

With that said, I do agree that the number of terminator 'fix' threads is a symptom of their currently lacklustre rules.

I encourage those who believe terminators to be well balanced at the moment to try fielding a full DW force against a tac list from any other codex. A fun challenge for sure, but not balanced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
You should be careful with buffing stormbolters as they're present on many sm vehicles. Droppods, Rhinos. Must bump the price if you make them 2 times more effective. They'd actually be better than heavy bolters this way. Don't get me wrong - they should be good. You'll just need to adjust the price accordingly. Like 40+ pt droppods and rhinos base and stuff like that.

If they made terminator specific rules for firing storm bolters it would be ok. Letting a model in terminator armour count his storm bolter as rapid fire 2, and a specialist pistol in cc or something.

**Deuce11**

My preference is:

permit them to sweep after successful assault

2x heavy per 5 models

points reduction

improve the invul to 4++ standard.

**nosferatu1001**

...which doesnt sort the root cause, which is that they are OK in melee, but poor from shooting, as there is to much in the way of AP2 or 1 weaponry out there, because AP3 has historically been almost sacrosanct.

Fix the balance of shooting, an d they have a place again. Now not every man and his dog can bypass their armour in CC, do the same in shooting.

**Azreal13**

koooaei wrote:
You should be careful with buffing stormbolters as they're present on many sm vehicles. Droppods, Rhinos. Must bump the price if you make them 2 times more effective. They'd actually be better than heavy bolters this way. Don't get me wrong - they should be good. You'll just need to adjust the price accordingly. Like 40+ pt droppods and rhinos base and stuff like that.

Or just give Termies "Vanguard Pattern Stormbolters" or similar and make them distinct from standard SB, it isn't like GW show any inclination to keep things simple and streamlined.

**DarkLink**

Diggory_x wrote:
No because you can't fix what isn't broken.

Terminators are massively overpriced to the point that basiclly no one plays them.

**Wayniac**

I really hope so, as I really wanted to do an all Terminator army and shelved the idea (and become more angry with 40k and happier with my desire to not play it) because they would be insanely fluffy and almost impossible to win with :(

Honestly it made me physically mad because there's zero good reason I should be punished for wanting to make one of the fluffiest possible armies in 40k. Especially as I wanted to play casually and wasn't concerned with competitive tournament play, and even in casual games my army would suck for no reason other than I picked the wrong units.

**Deuce11**

I am waiting for a DW Formation. Then, at least, the tactical terminator army list can possibly shine even if some others lag behind.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
koooaei wrote:
RiTides wrote:

Ailaros, if there are hundreds of threads on the same subject, it probably has some validity!

There are hundreds of threads on the subject of tactical marines being bad. Yet, a roster with nothing but droppod tactical marines + Calgar got 2-d at BAO.

Actually it goes beyond this, in the top 10 there were 3 players who each ran a mighty 5 tactical squads in either rhinos (WS) or drop pods (ultramarines). They ranked 2nd, 5th and 8th, so a pretty good showing for the tac marines.
(Their success might have had more to do with calgar + UM chapter tactics and hit and run though).

With that said, I do agree that the number of terminator 'fix' threads is a symptom of their currently lacklustre rules.

I encourage those who believe terminators to be well balanced at the moment to try fielding a full DW force against a tac list from any other codex. A fun challenge for sure, but not balanced.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
You should be careful with buffing stormbolters as they're present on many sm vehicles. Droppods, Rhinos. Must bump the price if you make them 2 times more effective. They'd actually be better than heavy bolters this way. Don't get me wrong - they should be good. You'll just need to adjust the price accordingly. Like 40+ pt droppods and rhinos base and stuff like that.

If they made terminator specific rules for firing storm bolters it would be ok. Letting a model in terminator armour count his storm bolter as rapid fire 2, and a specialist pistol in cc or something.

So they make the topping once, and now they're viable? There was two Necron lists that topped in 6th, one with Typhus zombies and the other with old Flayed Ones. Unless this is consistent, this isn't proof of something becoming viable all the sudden. Also, Hit And Run is fantastic on Sternguard.

Another fix could be that they come with Heavy Bolters standard, or we fix the overall Bolter problem...

**Big Blind Bill**

So they make the topping once, and now they're viable?

Not to be pedantic, but they actually 'made the topping' 3 times lol.
With 5 tac squads in each army it is a sizeable amount of points, and as said armies did well they must have at least pulled their own weight.

Back on topic: I wouldn't want terminators with heavy bolters, leave that to the centurions.

One thing I would love to see for my DW (but am 100% certain I never will), is a cheaper transport option for terminators.

Terminators are expensive, but having to buy a transport that costs the same as the squad it is carrying really starts to make them extortionate.

**ClassicCarraway**

Mumblez wrote:
I think another wound would do the trick. However, the problem is that if you change the basic termies, hammernators get even better. I don't think that can be fixed as long as SS grants a 3++ save.

why is hammernators having 2 wounds a problem? 45 points is steep for an assault only unit. For comparison, look to the Necron Wraiths, 40 points, 2 wounds, 3++ AND T5, Wraithflight, and Beast. While looking to the single most OP unit in the game is probably the wrong approach, it certainly puts perspective on the situation.

I don't want GW to reduce the points cost of terminators, I want them to improve them to actually make them WORTH the points. They should still be an uber elite unit in an army of allegedly elite soldiers, so a points drop isn't the answer. 2 wounds is a start.

In addition to two wounds, upping the basic Invulnerable save to a 4++ would help bring tactical termies back to the game. If you are going to force a unit into an assault role (and lets be honest here, tactical termies were always intended as an assault unit), and then force an unwieldy weapon on them, either make them far more durable or have them ignore unwieldy. This also makes LC assault termies more viable and only improves hammernators by upping their wound total.

While we are at it, can we put an invulnerable save on poor Mega Nobz or give them T5 at the very least?

**Xenomancers**

koooaei wrote:
RiTides wrote:

Ailaros, if there are hundreds of threads on the same subject, it probably has some validity!

There are hundreds of threads on the subject of tactical marines being bad. Yet, a roster with nothing but droppod tactical marines + Calgar got 2-d at BAO.

LOL I've seen that army list - it was a bad army list. Pretty obvious by looking at his list he got very lucky.

**AnomanderRake**

Someday there will be a new Terminator box, and on that day, GW will release new Terminator rules that make them terrifyingly powerful and Terminator-spam lists will become the order of the day.

**DarkLink**

BoomWolf wrote:
The first terminator issue is the forced power fists. Nobody needs that many.

"budget " terminators like CSM, SW and GK works perfectly, because they are not forced to take an expensive fist for each member, and can settle for power weapons.
Not to mention having more versatile options.

If codex and BA terminators were the same, they too would be decent.

Well... budget Terminators are definitely better. They're useable, at least. Though for CSM it's mainly for deepstriking combi melta and for GKs it's because your only other option is the now-crappy Strike Squad. None of the units you mention are actually any good. They're just... a lot less terrible.

**krodarklorr**

I like how people don't like Terminators and want them cheaper. How cheap could you possibly go? Especially when you pay 5 points.....FIVE points for a 3++ and a Thunderhammer. Lychguard got good in the new book, but even then, they're 30 points for a 3+/3++ save, but can't punch through 2+ armor or vehicles well.

Also, I'm not okay with them being T5. That's what made Lychguard (Necron's "terminator" equiv) unique.

**Talizvar**

Ha!

I remember the uproar on the concept of "AP": ignores your armor? MADNESS!
Double your toughness: insta-kill all wounds. MADNESS!

Do you see the next GW fix for this? Create an "AD" value! = "Armor Deflect": AD of 4 = immunity to small arms fire!

Or the magic "IDF" (Internal dampener field) rule where it doubles your toughness to a maximum of 8!

Or the extra magical "IMD" (Internal medical dispense) rule where after taking a wound on a 4+ you get it back!

Or the supremely magical "FLSS" (Full Life Support System) rule where it doubles your wounds to a maximum of 6!

Pick any of the above to restore the former glory of Terminator Armor so a Warhound can perform a tapdance on them and only chip the paint!!!

**pelicaniforce**

Luke_Prowler wrote:
While I think Terminators could use a bit of a boost, but I don't think that even if they were more appropriately cost that they would be used anyway, and this is due to a meta problem. Because think about what you're mostly likely to face: Space Marines. And then beyond that, it's usually cheap transports, mounters creatures, Knights, other elite infantry, and death stars, so it very much encourages taking krak missiles, plasma, melta, and equivalent. You rarely see a need for anti-infantry special weapons, and when you do see anti-infantry it's something that can put a lot of hits out (Like shoota boyz) or can pull additional duty else where (like barrage weapons sniping characters or weapons with rending).

They're also a few other problems, like how over priced their transport, the Land Raiders, are (Meganobz are a similar unit to terminators, but they're well liked in the new ork codex, and part of that is being able to take trukks or a cheap battlewagon), or that how they're a flexible unit in a meta that's mostly shooty, or just how poorly deep striking works.

Yes, it doesn't matter what happens to terminators when infantry of all kinds is ignored. AP 4, 5, 6, and even 3 are worthless, s4 is worthless, so why is anyone surprised that terminaor-killing guns are everywhere?

Oh yeah, there is "mass fire." Well if it's from infantry, terminators should be mowing them down, but their weapons and the game structure prevent it. Scatter lasers? Well, apparently they are as strong as anti-tank grenades, so yeah I expect they would be pretty good against wearable tank armor.

Peregrine wrote:
As for the question of whether GW will fix terminators, I doubt it. Remember, GW doesn't play the same game we play. Their main rule authors are "casual at all costs" players who love to include silly mission rules, "fluffy" armies that deliberately take lots of bad units and upgrades, etc. Classic example: at the beginning of 7th there was a WD article about the awesome new psychic phase and how psykers needed a buff because everyone was using melee chaplains as their HQ and ignoring the poor librarians. Meanwhile in the real world everyone understood that chaplains suck, librarians are awesome, and the only non-librarian HQ worth taking is a bike captain (and only because of the FOC swap).

Once you assume you're playing in a "battleforce" metagame where armies are all a random mix of units terminators don't look so bad. Nobody has enough shooting to overwhelm their armor saves, especially if units like IG veterans/crisis suits/etc are using a random mix of weapons instead of all melta/plasma. And nobody has melee death stars that laugh at a mere terminator squad. So ~200 points gives you a unit that can reasonably expect to survive long enough to get into melee range, and to kill anything it successfully charges. In fact, right now one of GW's rule authors is probably complaining about how their TFG opponent brought two squads of terminators and massacred everything. Expect the next C:SM update to put a 0-1 limit on terminators and give them a major point increase.

I don't know dude, melee chaplains were pretty great about thirteen years ago. You could also get a free thunder hammer if you used salamanders, who, coincidentally, had like 32 point terminators. Nobody was exactly raring to codex hop for that.