Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, the codex, as I recall, says that all modifiers to RP are cumulative, but can be no higher than a 4+.

So, lets say you take necron warriors in the Decurion detachment. +1 RP.

Lets say they get with a battle cannon. ID. -1 to RP.

Lets also say they happen to have a HQ buffing their RP. +1 RP.

So, 4+ FNP from ID weapons? Is that correct? It is cumulative, if I understand the meaning of the word....

Granted, this is dependent on specific HQs buffing limited squads, but even so, that seems potentially very strong.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm hoping they FAQ to both fix the wording of RP (so the 4+ limit has a meaning at all by RAW) and give some kinda order of operations for the modifiers to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm hoping they FAQ to both fix the wording of RP (so the 4+ limit has a meaning at all by RAW) and give some kinda order of operations for the modifiers to it.

Modifiers do not need an order of operations, the rules already handle this just perfectly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Indeed, but only if you assume they didn't mean what they wrote: the required roll is most certainly the target number, and unfortunately nothing that improves your chances of passing rp ever changes that number....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The required roll is the target number you must achieve

This is different to the roll of the dice.

So the required roll is a 5+. If you roll a 3+, but have two +1 modifiers to the roll, then you have met the required roll.

Almost certainly not what was intended, as they seem to have a limit or 4+, but nothing ever alters the required roll from 5+, it just alters the dice roll you make.

 BlackTalos wrote:
As to my point of view:
A do agree that the "bonuses" are meant to be modifying the Results of the roll - "Side A"(and not the requirement of the roll - "Side B")

As per the rules of how: "subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death"
(Which is very clear that you remove the "-1" from the number you see on the dice, not the 5+ you are required to roll...)

And:"Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative"
This says modifiers to the dice roll, not to the requirement.

However.

The wording that comes after: "the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+."
Directly linked to the previous statement by a semicolon, is clearly referring to these "items" and how they cannot improve this roll to be better than a 4+.

This seems like a very big contradiction.

One method of resolving this however, would be to take the rule literally, with the wording of 4+ rather than numbers:

"Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a five or more, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than a four or more."

Reading the above, the rule actually seems very clear (to me anyway). And completely in line with "Side B":
5+, 4+ is not a requirement.
It is the value read on the roll:
If the roll is a five or more, then ...
The roll can be improved so that a four (or more) meets the required roll.
But if the dice rolled is a 3, it can never meet the required roll, whatever bonuses this dice roll has.

My conclusion and my HIWPI would both match:
Rolling a 3 on RP will never bring the model back. But rolling a 4 probably will, even if it reached by 4+1+1-1.
So having two +1 bonuses would negate the ID -1 penalty, bringing the required 5 down to a needed roll of a 4.

If the only thing we can agree on is a pretty sloppy rules writing:
Hey, it's the first time they tried RP worded this way. It's bound to have issues...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
All of the special rules and wargear items modify the roll itself and not the "target". You always need to satisfy a 5+ requirement when making an RP roll. The number you need on each die will change depending on how many modifiers are in play, but you always need to achieve a 5+.

Yes, this would be exactly how i see it, and that the statement: "the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+." Actually refers the to result (modified) obtained on the Dice. It is saying that even though modifiers can change the result "seen" (that needs to go up to 5), this "improvement" can never be better than a 4 to meet the requirement of 5.

"the required dice roll (of a 5) can never be improved to be better than 4+" (that is then improved to go above 5)

Kangodo wrote:
Can we keep that "required roll" discussion in the other thread and focus on the question?

@OP: Yes, it works like that.
It looks strong, but they always had this. Now you need a Cryptek and a special Detachment to obtain this.