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Hey guys!

I am putting together a Clan Raukaan army and I'm trying to decide between the new Deredeo dread with its standard guns and missles or the Contemptor Mortis with dual Kheres cannons and missles. I have am thinking of bringing two total dreads and their main purpose will be to handle any flyers that come (I'm not bring any of my own) and deal with whatever else they need to. The deredeo seems pretty superior on the anti-flyer duty with the much longer range and str 8 sunder, but the other dread is no slouch in that department and will mow down other infantry and light vehicles as well.

What do you guys think? 2 of the contemptor? 2 of the Deredeo because it's just better? Maybe 1 of each? Let me know what your opinions are. Thanks!

Deredeo is better in almost every aspect, IMO. Though the C Mortis can take double Kheres, which mulch most everything.

The Deredeo is much superior, at the moment. With its rules being experimental the Deredeo could very well change in the near future.

Yeah that is one of my concerns that it will get changed and then it will suck. But I guess the opinion is that the Deredeo is just straight up better. Anyone else agree or disagree?

We have also already seen confirmation of a set of plasma arms for the deredo.

Yes. 48" skyfire with sunder is better than kheres vs flyers
now, against FMCs maye kheres is better

I'd rank the deredeo (with autocannons and carapace launcher) as better against flyers and tanks while the twin kheres and cml contemptor is better vs FMCS and infantry.

Why not put the War of Murder legacy on the Deredeo and here monster Hunter too?

Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

 novaspike wrote:
Why not put the War of Murder legacy on the Deredeo and here monster Hunter too?

AP is the problem, not hitting/wounding. AP4 doesn't cut it against most scary FMCs, as they have 3+ saves.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

I say suffers because it seems like not a big deal until it is. Like when you get immobilised or when you forget to move him an inch and then youre SOL. Its just a major detractor of the Mortis for me. Once it gets FAQd I'll be back on board though.

Ok immobilised is a good point.

Yeah that is a good point indeed, never realized that was how it worked. I always just assumed it was a choice now that having skyfire can be a big drawback. At least with it's 24" range you'll have to be moving around haha.

I've decided on 1 of each so I have all my bases covered. Thanks for the help guys.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

I thought Helical Targeting doesn't require you to take skyfire, just that you can. Regardless, like you said, it is an easily solved problem.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

I thought Helical Targeting doesn't require you to take skyfire, just that you can. Regardless, like you said, it is an easily solved problem.

I think what Big Blind Bill is referring to is that the missiles can be fired at a separate target than the main cannons, but if you select skyfire with the cannons then the missiles automatically have skyfire as well. I think the missiles are really cool though (though strangely worded, I'm still not entirely sure what it means). If you read it as something that grants it the ability to ignore line of sight entirely, then that's pretty damn useful on 3 S6 AP3 shots with a 60" range especially since it can fire at a separate target.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

I thought Helical Targeting doesn't require you to take skyfire, just that you can. Regardless, like you said, it is an easily solved problem.

I think what Big Blind Bill is referring to is that the missiles can be fired at a separate target than the main cannons, but if you select skyfire with the cannons then the missiles automatically have skyfire as well. I think the missiles are really cool though (though strangely worded, I'm still not entirely sure what it means). If you read it as something that grants it the ability to ignore line of sight entirely, then that's pretty damn useful on 3 S6 AP3 shots with a 60" range especially since it can fire at a separate target.

The mortis has the problem that it must skyfire if it stays still. If you are concentrating it is not a problem unless it gets immobilised. The new dread can choose if it wants the skyfire or not.

Yep, that's what I mean.
If I want to fire the cannons at some AV 12 flyer, I don't really want to fire the missiles at it too, but they are now skyfiring so can only snap shot vs ground targets.

I'm not sure what to make of this section of the rules:

and ignores intervening obstacles to line of sight in open terrain

It is strangely worded, does this mean that it can not shoot a model out of line of sight, if that model is in difficult terrain?

Also, if ignoring obstacles, does that ignore cover too?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:


I'm not sure what to make of this section of the rules:

and ignores intervening obstacles to line of sight in open terrain

It is strangely worded, does this mean that it can not shoot a model out of line of sight, if that model is in difficult terrain?

Also, if ignoring obstacles, does that ignore cover too?

Yeah so my interpretation of that rule means that unless a model is standing in a forest/area terrain or a inside a ruin, then they are not getting cover for line of sight cover. That seems to make the most sense and fits with what it would be doing fluff-wise; flying above/around obstacles unless you are inside it.

I don't see it ignoring cover at all. What it can do is to bypass a building or another vehicle standing in the way of your intended target. To Ignore Cover in this game, a rul should say exactly that. A forest isn't an obstacle capable of blocking an entire unit of LoS, so I wouldn't ignore its cover-giving capability.

But I agree the rule needs better wording.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

Suffers? Its not much of a problem when all you have to do to hit ground targets is shuffle half an inch forwards and back.

I wish the deredeo had the choice to sky fire with its cannons, but still use the missiles against ground targets without the need to snapfire them.

I thought Helical Targeting doesn't require you to take skyfire, just that you can. Regardless, like you said, it is an easily solved problem.

I think what Big Blind Bill is referring to is that the missiles can be fired at a separate target than the main cannons, but if you select skyfire with the cannons then the missiles automatically have skyfire as well. I think the missiles are really cool though (though strangely worded, I'm still not entirely sure what it means). If you read it as something that grants it the ability to ignore line of sight entirely, then that's pretty damn useful on 3 S6 AP3 shots with a 60" range especially since it can fire at a separate target.

The mortis has the problem that it must skyfire if it stays still. If you are concentrating it is not a problem unless it gets immobilised. The new dread can choose if it wants the skyfire or not.

Yep, that's what I mean.
If I want to fire the cannons at some AV 12 flyer, I don't really want to fire the missiles at it too, but they are now skyfiring so can only snap shot vs ground targets.

I'm not sure what to make of this section of the rules:

and ignores intervening obstacles to line of sight in open terrain

It is strangely worded, does this mean that it can not shoot a model out of line of sight, if that model is in difficult terrain?

Also, if ignoring obstacles, does that ignore cover too?

Yeah it's really weird. I think I would just play it as it can target units out of line of sight, but does not ignore cover.

I can imagine people arguing that you can't target a model out of line of sight if it is in difficult terrain though. Such strange wording.

Contempor mortis is better unless your fighting lots of cheap low quality armor. Assault cannons can rend, autocannons cannot.
Against orks or dark eldar I could see lots of practical value even against nids. But Ita fairly useless in marine on marine warfare.

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Its important to remember also that the Mortis suffers from the older version of skyfire. It has to move in order to not snapshoot ground targets. The deredeo has the option as its skyfire rule is worded differently. Even after emailing FW about the Mortis they said its still the same. If it stays still it has skyfire and is forced in snap shots at the ground.

It depends who answers, I've seen the same question get the opposite answer in fw emails. The mortis is never forced to use the helical targeting array.

Has anyone tried the deredeo plasma cannonades at all? The ap2 and option to large blast it seems pretty neat. Especially intercepting pesky d-scythes! I have the Mortis contemptor w the las arms and missiles so far but am building the deredeo. I was thinking I could fit both in an iron hands allied detachment. Flyrants and storm Ravens always give me problems with my space wolves and my Khornekins/daemons/csm.

Malathrim wrote:
Has anyone tried the deredeo plasma cannonades at all? The ap2 and option to large blast it seems pretty neat. Especially intercepting pesky d-scythes! I have the Mortis contemptor w the las arms and missiles so far but am building the deredeo. I was thinking I could fit both in an iron hands allied detachment. Flyrants and storm Ravens always give me problems with my space wolves and my Khornekins/daemons/csm.

I can't remember the EXACT points costs for the plasma Deredeo, but I remember, vividly, looking at it and saying "What a colossal waste of point" and put firmly in the "Never take, ever" category.

A S7 AP2 large last isn't worth the nearly 200 points it costs, even with the flexibility of different fire modes.

How are you taking 2 relics of the armory with no master of the forge available to you?

Contempor if you want to cc, deredeo if you want to shoot, you can replace the deredeo'a raw firepower for the contempors load outs and expect to be as effective.

The contempor however has close combat weapons and meltas which makes it great for short ranged work.

 Orock wrote:
How are you taking 2 relics of the armory with no master of the forge available to you?

Check the date on the thread. It was posted before MotF was killed off in the new marine book.

I don't see the Contemptor Mortis having the Relic of the Armory rule in the IA2.

I think for an Allied Detachment of SMs to run with my XIII Company CAD or Formation, I'll have to stick with the Deredeo. The Elites slot is too ripe for a Command Squad, and I think they'll do more overall good than the Contemptor. But for a CAD of SMs, then I can fit in the Contemptor too. At least I magnetized the arms so I can make it a combat Dread sometimes.

I guess the drop pod's worth of points for the plasma cannonade on the Deredeo is steep, but I sure like that AP2, though certainly not as good vs mechanized flyers.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The Deredeo is much superior, at the moment. With its rules being experimental the Deredeo could very well change in the near future.

I don't have the Horus Heresy book 5 in front of me but I am pretty sure the experimental rules and those rules match. I think there is a very good chance the rules will remain the same in the next IA book the dread appears. The points maybe different but I bet the rules are the same.

Both models also look amazing but I must say the ammo on the Deredo is pretty awesome looking.