Challenges - Do you use them? Are they fun or even effective? Tips?

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**Stravo**

As an avid listener to a variety of podcasts, I notice that whenever the mention of challenges comes up, particularly when reviewing new codexes that have powers or special rules related to challenges, it is usually greeted with derision if not contempt. I find the rules fluffy and can be fun but I play very infrequently and with close friends. Most of these podcasts are competitively inclined so maybe there is a viewpoint from the competitive side of the house that does not like the mechanic. If so, can you share why that would be? If you enjoy challenges or think it is a fun mechanic can you share why? Finally, are there some tactical or best practices in relation to challenges you can provide a relative new comer to help should they play a game with someone more experienced?

**Hazard30**

I play orks and I absolutely hate challenges depending on what wargear I use my Nob ether does nothing and dies, or dies before he gets to swing. Ether way it totally hamstrings my entire squad and game plan and it is soo easy to do.

I don't even think its all that fluffy...granted I think some characters should have the challenge special rule but all characters have it..nah, not cool. Why would my character not be able to attack when a clearly superior opponent challenges it. More likely he would be like "nah, zog off" and fight someone easier.

It can also be exploited due to the fact that if you challenge him you die and he kills your squad, if you don't challenge him he kills your squad and you die,where-as before he could kill your squad but your hidden character gets the last laugh.

**jreilly89**

I think challenges are good and can be fun. You can definitely use them tactically although you have to be careful about it. Say a unit has two characters (say a Libby and a Sergeant), if you declare the challenge and they decline, you can decide who sits out of the combat.

Second, certain units (most notably CSM) have to issue challenges. You can use this against them by pushing in a unit they can't possibly hurt (a high Toughness MC or certain Dreadnoughts)and then murdering their character.

With the addition of spill over wounds in 7th, challenges are no longer the save they used to be. You used to be able to throw a basic Sergeant against a Daemon Prince in 6th and basically sacrifice him, so at max he could only kill one guy. Now, wounds spill over from challenges, so that is no longer an option.

Challenges are hardly an amazing tactic, but if you notice when and where to use them, you can benefit from them.

**SharkoutofWata**

I also hate Challenges. It forces me to spend upgrades, normally very pricey upgrades, on my beatstick unit's leader so that he actually gets to Attack wherever my enemy Warlord is. Otherwise, I get issued a Challenge, I refuse because my Power Sword is nothing compared to the Warlord's 2+ Sv and Initiative 7, so now my 20pt upgraded guy (gun and sword for instance) can't even attack the NORMAL guys and the squad kills the Warlord by sheer amount of Wounds. No, my guy has to get slaughtered or hide or I have to spend 50pts (exaggeration) on my Sergeant so the squad itself can do its job and kill a Command Squad.

Blood Angels and Tyranids are amazing for me since the best units have no Characters. And my Warlord can be friggin impressive enough to kill just about anything.

On the other hand, I can issue a Challenge with a Character Dreadnaught and laugh as the Cultist Champion or T4 Chaos wimp gets mulched because they are forced to accept.

**Killermonkey**

I love challenges from my dreadknight because it lets me pulp the sergeants with powerfists or melta bombs in a squad before they swing or force them to sit out. Just always run your Hq in a squad with a serg that can chump if you are worried about having to accept.

**Melevolence**

If challenges were handled better, I think I'd like them a whole lot more. As a concept, I like the idea. Two leaders, duking it out. 1v1 while wading through a sea of Orks and a few Marines.

But the issue is, the game is still lopsided in terms of balance. challenges really favor specific armies, while being total gak to others. Marines, for example, tend to love challenges. Their characters are monsters (HQs anyway), and even their Sergeants can do well. But other armies like Tau, Eldar, and even Orks have a rough time in one on one matches, which really sucks.

Seeing my Warboss getting SLAUGHTERED by a Sergeant because he swings first and gets lucky hits is highly depressing. This stemming from Unweildly and the disturbing lack of any form of worthwhile armor for Orks outside of Mega Armor.

Warbosses are supposes to be these big, hulking monstrosities who laugh in the face of pitiful humans, Marine or otherwise. But they fall with hardly a struggle. And this is even worse where Orks are getting more and more forced challenge rules due to formations. Even CSM have a rough time due to force challenges, but not having really adequate gear to back them up, despite being Marines.

If armies had better ways to work with them. I'd for instance, while it might be considered OP by some, for Warbosses to use their Power Klaws at initiative. They are still only I3 I believe, so they'd swing last still in MOST cases, but they could at least do better in challenges against other power wielding enemies.

It seems weird that the Warboss is not strong enough to use the PK at full effect unlike the lesser Nobs or Meks.

Just my .02

If they tweak challenges a little more, I'd be happier. The wound spilling is a start, as the times my Boss does live, it's really nice to not have my extra 4 wounds go to waste.

**Munga**

As a CSM player I HAVE to offer and accept challenges, and on that level, I love it. It adds a tactical depth, a lot of fluff, and a heap of fun. I don't play in tournaments or anything, and TBH I don't really care if I lose as long as I had fun and gave the opponent something to think about in the process. Because I HAVE to deal with challenges, the opponent can take advantage of it, but it's more of a metagame element than anything. It keeps people on their toes. You have to be ready to deal with anything, and unless people are tailoring lists before every match, it can be a lot of fun. I can understand why some players hate it, but maybe bringing an unwieldy weapon on every squad is not always the wisest choice. And as Killermonkey said, there's ways around it. You just have to have some foresight. Getting into assault is hard enough as it is, and getting there with an HQ loaded up for it is even harder as everyone tries to blow them off the board ASAP anyway. In 7th, having a few wounds (okay, if you lost to the axe of blind fury, potentially a LOT of wounds) spill over is just part of it. You should have kitted out your characters better. I've definitely felt the sting from assaults as well as dealt it. It's part of the game, and it keeps you honest.

Oh, and are they fun? I think they are hugely fun. When you're rolling so few dice, they always roll in ways you don't expect. It's totally possible to have a much higher WS and roll ones and still get murdered. It makes the fights very intense.

**koooaei**

Challenge system is an example of a good idea that's badly applied. Currently it's more often than not just annoying rather than fun.

Chalenges is the main reason noone equips sergeants with cool gear. Some armies have to play around it cause they have no other choice. Like orks who use a bunch of frontline meks accepting challenges instead of warbosses.

**vipoid**

I think that challenges are out of place and badly implemented. I can just about accept them in fantasy, but how and why would Tyranids issue and accept challenges?

Also, a lot of the time it just seems to be a free sergeant kill with no thinking required. If we were going to take the challenge mechanic from Fantasy, perhaps we should have also brought the ability for sergeants to refuse without penalty?

The other aspect is that, as others have said, it heavily favours some armies over others - i.e. the ones with the best beatsticks. I mean, I have expensive, beatstick Special Characters who don't even compare to similarly-priced characters in other armies.

As a DE player, my main defence against challenges is to not be anywhere near them. Most of my units tend to be shooty, and I don't even bother giving them sergeants. I don't use Archons since they lost all forms of AP2 (not like many characters have 2+ saves these days, right? Right...?

). If I do take a combat unit, it'll always have a sergeant so that my attached character can at least buy himself a round of relative safety.

I also tend to take the Vexator mask - especially if I'm using Dark Artisan. I haven't used it yet, but I'm hoping -5I in a challenge will be useful one of these days.

Munga wrote:
As a CSM player I HAVE to offer and accept challenges, and on that level, I love it. It adds a tactical depth

Hang on, how does removing choice add tactical depth?

**niv-mizzet**

I find it a very silly mechanic at times. I've chained a unit I was about to charge with so that the IC was waaaaaay in the back while the front of the unit was 2" away. Got an average charge, told my opponent that he can't challenge mah dude befause he's way back there out of the strike zone, and then after pile ins he was in the fight zone and got to swing. That's one example of playing the system due to silly rules.

How would I fix it? Let people challenge or accept if they want. If they refuse, give them a -1 combat result for having no one to stand up to the big loud enemy that's boasting about being the strongest there is.

**vipoid**

niv-mizzet wrote:
How would I fix it? Let people challenge or accept if they want. If they refuse, give them a -1 combat result for having no one to stand up to the big loud enemy that's boasting about being the strongest there is.

Yeah, I think there should be less penalty for refusing. Not being able to fight at all is too much.

**caelim**

Given that wounds now spill over both ways, I've lost my dislike of the challenge mechanic.

I find it does add a layer of tactics to kitting out your characters. Does my squad depend on this one guy's powerfist? Better have some backup to support him, but that takes points from elsewhere, hm...

More importantly, it keeps characters honest - if you want to splurge on weapons, you'd better splurge on defence too. The notable SM beat-sticks are a royal pain... imagine if you couldn't even touch them until you chewed through their entire squad. Why bother buying a Stormsheild? Let's just buy more power fists!

**vipoid**

caelim wrote:
More importantly, it keeps characters honest - if you want to splurge on weapons, you'd better splurge on defence too.

Why, yes. You're absolutely right. Well, I've bought my Succubus a weapon, I'd better buy her some combat-defence too and... oh. There's nothing whatsoever to buy.

Well then, I'll just give my Coven Haemonculus an invulnerable save and... oh. I can't do that, either.

Sorry, but before spouting that kind of crap, check first whether it's actually feasible for all armies - not just marine ones.

**Orky Boss**

Personally I just find challenges to be a fun little thing when it comes to my own Spess Muhreens or Imperial Guard, as my sergeants are never kitted out to actually take on anything so it's just a formality to go through just before you either lose the entire squad as expected or laugh as your plucky guardsman actually manages to kill a Daemonic Entity of Chaos.

However, I agree with previous posters in that it's "A good idea that's badly applied". Suddenly your 'Hidden Klaw' or anything of that nature is completely screwed since he's forced to eat a bunch of hits with only T4 and a 6+ to save his arse, or in some cases you're forced into getting pulped by something you can't hope to actually put a bloody dent in. There's no longer the problem of Sergeants being thrown at the enemy to 'waste' the enemy sergeant's attacks for a turn, but there's still the problem of units being forced into duels without being able to kit themselves out with proper protection in such a confrontation.

**th3maninblak**

I actually think challenges are better implemented now than they were in 6th. I like wounds carrying in or out, meaning a sgt cant take on a hive tyrant for a turn and save the rest of his squad. It also makes challenge characters better, and army rules like chaos' having to accept/issue challenges and black templar rending far better as well.

The later example is really powerful. A sword brethren with a power maul is suddenly almost HQ level in terms of challenge combat effectiveness, and against things like nobz, tac marines, avenger exarchs, etc theres no reason not to challenge. He may very well kill his opponent and the two guys standing next to him.

**Waaargh**

Challenges are a great addition to the game. My close combat gameplay evolves around challenges. In 6th it was horrible, now wounds can overflow into and out of a challenge. A fine example is how I (barely) managed to take down a Lord of Change (with an instakill gift) by having my warboss and MANZ charge him from one side and have a boyz mob charge him from a different direction. The nob leading the boyz issued the challenge and the greater daemon did beat him into a pulp, freeing up the warboss and MANZ to deal sweet clipping and clobbering to the big fellow.

As I see it, it's a good thing (for me) how a beatstick can be tied up with a unit leader.

By the way I talk from an ork players point of view. Those PK nobz are thrown into the melee as part of ork sneakyness.

The easy counter seems to be having more than one character in a unit, this way the beatstick will stay free to hit more or less what it wants.

**Parity**

I find them annoying as an Ork player, but it's largely because of initiative order. It's really not fun to have some higher initiative sarge take out my (more expensive) kitted up nob. As a result every Ork player just takes a bare-bone Mek. I suppose this could be fluffy in that the Nob holds the Mek in the way, but it makes an annoying 3-boy price upgrade to whatever squad just to stand in the way of a power-whatever.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

My Orks and eldar never have a problem with challenges. Painboyz and mekboys just refuse because I don't really NEED their attacks, then I put the nob about 4" away from the front. That way they pile in and crump. I ALWAYS run exarchs in my aspect warrior squads, its fluffy, and my scorpion's claw has reaped a bloody tally of enemy warlords and terminators!

As a tactic, challenges are tricky to do right. You have to make sure the sacrifice is worth it( loss of the character, or loss of their attacks). Or, can the only character in the unit use their invuln save to shut down a 200 point close combat beast for a couple rounds.