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I can't find anything about this so i'm hoping someone here has an answer. What happens first if a Tau unit is shooting at a skimmer that has markerlights on it. Do i have to declare jink before they state what they're using the markerlights for or do they declare markerlight then i state if I'm going to jink? Thanks in advance for any help.

I don't have the Tau codex near me, but Jink is declare after being nominated as a target.
If Markerlights have the same requirement, the Tau player chooses the order.

Codex says MLs are declared before the unit shoots (dice are rolled). BRB says jink is declared when targeted. IMO jink is declared first.

ADrunknPirate wrote:
I can't find anything about this so i'm hoping someone here has an answer. What happens first if a Tau unit is shooting at a skimmer that has markerlights on it. Do i have to declare jink before they state what they're using the markerlights for or do they declare markerlight then i state if I'm going to jink? Thanks in advance for any help.

Jink - "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

Markerlight Rules - "Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below."

The Shooting Sequence...

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.
3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any Wounds caused by the firing unit must now be allocated, one at a time, to the closest model in the target unit. A model with a Wound allocated to it can take a saving throw (if it has one) to avoid being wounded. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it is removed as a casualty. Wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. Continue to allocate Wounds and take saving throws until all Wounds have been resolved.
7. Select Another Weapon. After resolving all shots from the currently selected weapon, if the firing unit is equipped with differently named weapons that have yet to fire, select another weapon and repeat steps 3 to 6."

Jink clearly happens immediately at step 2 of the Shooting Sequence. Markerlight is a little more up in the air, but would have to happen either at steps 2 or 3, but definitely after step 1.

If you read it as ML happening at Step 2, the Tau Player gets to pick the order of operations as two things potentially happen at the same time. If you read it as ML happening at Step 3, the Tau Player will already know whether or not the target is Jinking when he decides how to use his ML tokens.

I'm leaning towards ML happening at Step 3 for the following reason...

With a Networked Markerlight, you nominate a unit to fire, select a target and then fully resolve your Markerlight shots. Once they are resolved, you can choose to use those Markerlight tokens and continue firing at your target with your other weapons. This would put the Markerlight token usage after having selected a target, but before selecting a weapon, i.e. after 2, but before 3.

the wording of both rules only stipulates that the decision must be made before any 'to hit' rolls are made, but the wording of both allows for their decision to be the last one before stage 4 of the above sequence.

personally i would regard the markerlight options as part of deciding which weapon you are using and i would have the 'jink' decision as the last one before rolling to hit, but we're getting into a RAW vs RAI situation again.

still, the BRB is quite clear on matters of ambiguity - roll off for it at the beginning of the game.

 SirDonlad wrote:
the wording of both rules only stipulates that the decision must be made before any 'to hit' rolls are made, but the wording of both allows for their decision to be the last one before stage 4 of the above sequence.

personally i would regard the markerlight options as part of deciding which weapon you are using and i would have the 'jink' decision as the last one before rolling to hit, but we're getting into a RAW vs RAI situation again.

still, the BRB is quite clear on matters of ambiguity - roll off for it at the beginning of the game.

It's not ambiguous at all. Jink is clearly worded as happening upon target selection. "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." The bit about the decision being made before any To Hit rolls have been made is almost useless. Target selection ALWAYS happens before To Hit rolls are made. What it's really saying is that you can't say "woah! I meant to Jink" once your opponent rolls To Hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other words, if Jink triggers at Step 2, the decision to Jink must be made before Step 3 commences.

the ambiguity comes from the fact there is no clear decision as to which goes first, otherwise one of those rules would state that it is the last thing to be done before you roll any 'to hit' dice. but both rules just give a point by which you have to have deciced, time limit style.

the markerlight rule says "Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that..."

jink says "The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."


the 'to hit' roll is the first part of 'shooting' - anything before then is 'targeting' or 'weapon selection'

so get used to rolling off for it...

 SirDonlad wrote:
the ambiguity comes from the fact there is no clear decision as to which goes first, otherwise one of those rules would state that it is the last thing to be done before you roll any 'to hit' dice. but both rules just give a point by which you have to have deciced, time limit style.

the markerlight rule says "Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that..."

jink says "The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."


the 'to hit' roll is the first part of 'shooting' - anything before then is 'targeting' or 'weapon selection'

so get used to rolling off for it...

Jink happens upon target selection. Markerlight counter usage happens IMMEDIATELY before shooting. If both things happen before To Hit rolls, but one of those things happens IMMEDIATELY before, then the other thing must happen even earlier. Ergo...

1. Target Selection.
2. Opponent has option to Jink.
3. Weapon Selection.
4. Opponent still has option to Jink.
5. Markerlight Counter Usage. (Opponent no longer has option to Jink.)
6. To Hit rolls made.

my angle is that the jink rule uses the word 'may' rather than 'must' - it uses the word right afterwards when it says "The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

you may choose to jink then (maybe not) but you must choose before any to hit rolls are made.


done some research; you were right Kriswall - the word 'immediately' has a second meaning, 'without interval' which means the jinker doesn't have a point in time to decide after


you know, humble pie tastes pretty good with organic yogurt.

Well that's a bit of a downer for anyone playing with models that can jink against Tau players. Tau can choose to remove coversave so you lose your jink. With that in mind i think the tau player should specify what he or she will be doing with the tokens before the player has to make the decision to jink. Furthermore, the wording IS ambiguous, because it states immediately and then it says before rolls to hit, so its contradicting itself right away. Furthermore, the rules state that both must be made before hits to roll. so its up to the players and for the above stated reason in regards to ML's removing CS i would say the Tau player should declare first.

You can't put markerlight tokens on a target without firing markerlights at it. Shooting markerlights is a shooting attack, and as such you actually have to declare jink when your opponent first wants to use markerlights on you - hence this discussion is futile unless GW adds a method of applying ML tokens without shooting.

TompiQ wrote:
You can't put markerlight tokens on a target without firing markerlights at it. Shooting markerlights is a shooting attack, and as such you actually have to declare jink when your opponent first wants to use markerlights on you - hence this discussion is futile unless GW adds a method of applying ML tokens without shooting.

When Tau Unit A shoots a Markerlight, the target need not Jink as there is not chance of harm.

When Tau Unit B subsequently shoots the same target, the target may then decide to Jink. Unit B can decide to use Markerlight counters when making these shooting attacks.

Unit B's shooting is what we're discussing here.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well that's a bit of a downer for anyone playing with models that can jink against Tau players. Tau can choose to remove coversave so you lose your jink. With that in mind i think the tau player should specify what he or she will be doing with the tokens before the player has to make the decision to jink. Furthermore, the wording IS ambiguous, because it states immediately and then it says before rolls to hit, so its contradicting itself right away. Furthermore, the rules state that both must be made before hits to roll. so its up to the players and for the above stated reason in regards to ML's removing CS i would say the Tau player should declare first.

This is what brought the question up. Sure you make them burn 2 markerlights, but it's like "why jink if it really truly serves no purpose".

ADrunknPirate wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well that's a bit of a downer for anyone playing with models that can jink against Tau players. Tau can choose to remove coversave so you lose your jink. With that in mind i think the tau player should specify what he or she will be doing with the tokens before the player has to make the decision to jink. Furthermore, the wording IS ambiguous, because it states immediately and then it says before rolls to hit, so its contradicting itself right away. Furthermore, the rules state that both must be made before hits to roll. so its up to the players and for the above stated reason in regards to ML's removing CS i would say the Tau player should declare first.

This is what brought the question up. Sure you make them burn 2 markerlights, but it's like "why jink if it really truly serves no purpose".

You Jink to make them burn the 2 markerlight counters. If you don't Jink, they're gonna use those counters instead to either fire a couple of Seeker Missiles OR to give out +2 BS to a firing unit. You aren't Jinking to get a cover save... if you're playing Tau and you're lit up with markerlights, you aren't getting cover. You Jink to keep the situation from getting even worse.

 Kriswall wrote:

ADrunknPirate wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well that's a bit of a downer for anyone playing with models that can jink against Tau players. Tau can choose to remove coversave so you lose your jink. With that in mind i think the tau player should specify what he or she will be doing with the tokens before the player has to make the decision to jink. Furthermore, the wording IS ambiguous, because it states immediately and then it says before rolls to hit, so its contradicting itself right away. Furthermore, the rules state that both must be made before hits to roll. so its up to the players and for the above stated reason in regards to ML's removing CS i would say the Tau player should declare first.

This is what brought the question up. Sure you make them burn 2 markerlights, but it's like "why jink if it really truly serves no purpose".

You Jink to make them burn the 2 markerlight counters. If you don't Jink, they're gonna use those counters instead to either fire a couple of Seeker Missiles OR to give out +2 BS to a firing unit. You aren't Jinking to get a cover save... if you're playing Tau and you're lit up with markerlights, you aren't getting cover. You Jink to keep the situation from getting even worse.

I guess. But if i jink and live suddenly my annihilation barge just became a whole lot less useful for a turn. Haha

ADrunknPirate wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

ADrunknPirate wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well that's a bit of a downer for anyone playing with models that can jink against Tau players. Tau can choose to remove coversave so you lose your jink. With that in mind i think the tau player should specify what he or she will be doing with the tokens before the player has to make the decision to jink. Furthermore, the wording IS ambiguous, because it states immediately and then it says before rolls to hit, so its contradicting itself right away. Furthermore, the rules state that both must be made before hits to roll. so its up to the players and for the above stated reason in regards to ML's removing CS i would say the Tau player should declare first.

This is what brought the question up. Sure you make them burn 2 markerlights, but it's like "why jink if it really truly serves no purpose".

You Jink to make them burn the 2 markerlight counters. If you don't Jink, they're gonna use those counters instead to either fire a couple of Seeker Missiles OR to give out +2 BS to a firing unit. You aren't Jinking to get a cover save... if you're playing Tau and you're lit up with markerlights, you aren't getting cover. You Jink to keep the situation from getting even worse.

I guess. But if i jink and live suddenly my annihilation barge just became a whole lot less useful for a turn. Haha

That's tactics for you. Do you Jink and make the Tau player burn two markerlight counters, or do you not Jink and hope you survive the turn?

I think Jink is pretty straight forward as was pointed out earlier:
Pg. 789 BRB “…selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.”

-This is giving a time frame for when it must be done; between being targeted and before To Hit rolls.

-So when do markerlights have to be used?
Pg. 68 Tau codex “Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target…”

-When does shooting take place? After a weapon is selected.
Pg. 505 BRB “All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.”
Page 505 BRB “All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time, regardless of whether or not all of the dice are rolled together.”

-I read this as they happen at the same time.
Page 475 BRB “SEQUENCING-While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.”

In this case it’s going to be the Tau player.

I like Kriswall’s point about being forced to burn two markerlights. If I have three markerlights on a Annihilation barge and am forced to use two on Ignores Cover that only bumps my BS up by one.

Something unrelated I found while looking up rules about markerlights:
Page 68 Tau Codex “Scour: . . . .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Markerlight cost: 2
All weapons fired at the target as part of this Shooting attack gain the Ignores Cover special rule.”

Does the wording “this shooting attack” mean just the weapons fired gain Ignores Cover and the next selected weapon does not?

i.e. I have a suit with plasma/fusion; I use two markerlights to give the plasma ignores cover for it’s shooting attack. Does the fusion require another two markerlights to also get ignores cover?

I have never played it that way but looking at the wording it’s got me thinking.

It's generally understood that "this Shooting attack" refers to all weapons fired by one Unit at another Unit in a given Shooting phase.

In other words, no, you don't need another two markerlight counters to give the next weapon in sequence Ignores Cover.

The weapons fire simultaneous even though you roll per weapon so there is only ever 1 shooting attack

I'm in the "they happen at the same time, so the tau player decides" camp.

Well, thanks for all the input folks. I guess I'll be a jinking machine from now on.

Kriswall wrote:It's generally understood that "this Shooting attack" refers to all weapons fired by one Unit at another Unit in a given Shooting phase.

In other words, no, you don't need another two markerlight counters to give the next weapon in sequence Ignores Cover.

kambien wrote:The weapons fire simultaneous even though you roll per weapon so there is only ever 1 shooting attack

That's how I have been playing it and assumed the wording was a result of the codex being from 6th and the BRB being 7th now.

Is there anywhere in the BRB that says there is only one shooting attack per squad or is it more along the lines of it doesn't say that's not how it works? I know I'm just splitting hairs now but this is one of the few threads I've seen anywhere where people are basing their case on facts and not just what they think.

 McTats wrote:

Kriswall wrote:It's generally understood that "this Shooting attack" refers to all weapons fired by one Unit at another Unit in a given Shooting phase.

In other words, no, you don't need another two markerlight counters to give the next weapon in sequence Ignores Cover.

kambien wrote:The weapons fire simultaneous even though you roll per weapon so there is only ever 1 shooting attack

That's how I have been playing it and assumed the wording was a result of the codex being from 6th and the BRB being 7th now.

Is there anywhere in the BRB that says there is only one shooting attack per squad or is it more along the lines of it doesn't say that's not how it works? I know I'm just splitting hairs now but this is one of the few threads I've seen anywhere where people are basing their case on facts and not just what they think.

Small Rulebook, Page 30 - "The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below." So, you see, when a squad 'shoots', the squad goes through the seven steps of the shooting sequence. I read this to mean that each unit only shoots once per turn and that the 'shooting' runs all the way from the unit being nominated until all weapons have been selected and fired. At the very least, we can say that from a rules as written standpoint, a Unit that fires multiple, different weapons has only undergone one single "shooting process".

 Kriswall wrote:

 McTats wrote:

Kriswall wrote:It's generally understood that "this Shooting attack" refers to all weapons fired by one Unit at another Unit in a given Shooting phase.

In other words, no, you don't need another two markerlight counters to give the next weapon in sequence Ignores Cover.

kambien wrote:The weapons fire simultaneous even though you roll per weapon so there is only ever 1 shooting attack

That's how I have been playing it and assumed the wording was a result of the codex being from 6th and the BRB being 7th now.

Is there anywhere in the BRB that says there is only one shooting attack per squad or is it more along the lines of it doesn't say that's not how it works? I know I'm just splitting hairs now but this is one of the few threads I've seen anywhere where people are basing their case on facts and not just what they think.

Small Rulebook, Page 30 - "The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below." So, you see, when a squad 'shoots', the squad goes through the seven steps of the shooting sequence. I read this to mean that each unit only shoots once per turn and that the 'shooting' runs all the way from the unit being nominated until all weapons have been selected and fired. At the very least, we can say that from a rules as written standpoint, a Unit that fires multiple, different weapons has only undergone one single "shooting process".

Awesome! Thanks for the reply, that just the kind of thing I was looking for.

To help this out, being a tyranid player there's a good example. Marker lights don't cause hits to make a Flyrant do a grounding check.

Imagine it's a laser pointer and it'll make things easier on you.

 foto69man wrote:
To help this out, being a tyranid player there's a good example. Marker lights don't cause hits to make a Flyrant do a grounding check.

Imagine it's a laser pointer and it'll make things easier on you.

That's not because marker lights don't cause hits (they still do). That's because in 7ed grounding checks are caused by wounds suffered and not hits.