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Simple question but could not find an answer as the majority of results seemed to be about stacking.

If I have a unit of pink horrors casting Cursed Earth, which do I use:

1. Do I nominate one model to be the focal point and measure from there?
2. Do I measure from any model in the unit, potentially creating a giant bubble of daemonic glory?

Thanks,

The BRB, on Brotherhoods of Psykers/Sorcerers, wrote:When manifesting a psychic power, this unit measures range and lines of sight from, and uses the characteristics profile (if required) of, any one model in the unit that has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule (controlling player's choice).

So, pick one model as the focal point.

That is what I thought. So what happens if that model dies?

Cursed Earth affects things within 12'' of that model. If the model is dead, though, then there's nothing within 12'' of it. The power therefore has no effect.

aren't they all casting it? brother of psyker thingy. Therefore they all count as the "model"?

peirceg wrote:
aren't they all casting it? brother of psyker thingy. Therefore they all count as the "model"?

Think you pick one model as stated earlier.

Tsilber wrote:

peirceg wrote:
aren't they all casting it? brother of psyker thingy. Therefore they all count as the "model"?

Think you pick one model as stated earlier.

A few related questions.

1. What happens if there is an item that could affect the casting (e.g. Dark Eldar Helm of Spite) within range of some models in the Horror unit, but not the nominated model?
2. Separate to question 1, if the casting results in a Perils, and you successfully get the buff result on a roll of a 6, do all the Horror models get the buff or just the nominated model?
3. If you get the result on the Warpstorm table that selects an enemy psyker and removes it from play (can't remember the exact wording atm), and a Brotherhood of Psykers unit is selected (e.g. a Grey Knight squad), is the whole unit removed from play? EDIT: It's result 11 - Daemonic Possession, where the selected Psyker is replaced by a Herald.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
1. What happens if there is an item that could affect the casting (e.g. Dark Eldar Helm of Spite) within range of some models in the Horror unit, but not the nominated model?

Give me a moment to check the rules. EDIT: In the case of the Helm of Spite... blurgh. The daemon players measures range and line of sight from one model of their choice, but that's all. One person could argue that the term "range" also applies to the 12'' range of the Helm. The other side could argue that it doesn't, and so as the helm only has to be within 12'' of a psyker, and the (very, very strange) definition of psykers would include the horror unit, it only has to be within 12'' on one psyker.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
2. Separate to question 1, if the casting results in a Perils, and you successfully get the buff result on a roll of a 6, do all the Horror models get the buff or just the nominated model?

BRB, Perils of the Warp, wrote:If the unit has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, the effects of the Perils of the Warp result apply a [sic] randomly determined model in the unit who has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
3. If you get the result on the Warpstorm table that selects an enemy psyker and removes it from play (can't remember the exact wording atm), and a Brotherhood of Psykers unit is selected (e.g. a Grey Knight squad), is the whole unit removed from play? EDIT: It's result 11 - Daemonic Possession, where the selected Psyker is replaced by a Herald.

Look at the first page of the Psychic Phase in the BRB, "Psykers and Psychic Powers", paragraph two, where it defines the term "Psyker".

EDIT:

 Green is Best! wrote:
That is what I thought. So what happens if that model dies?

I'm actually rethinking my answer here, in the special case of the horror dying from Perils of the Warp. Slightly. It's a good thing that my next game isn't for another few weeks yet. Spoiler for HIWPI:

When manifesting a power, you pick a single model. However, once the power has been manifested and there is an ongoing effect, which model do you measure from? In the case of Psykers, it's pretty obvious: measure from that particular model. In the case of Brotherhoods, it's less clear.

Mallich wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
1. What happens if there is an item that could affect the casting (e.g. Dark Eldar Helm of Spite) within range of some models in the Horror unit, but not the nominated model?

Give me a moment to check the rules. EDIT: In the case of the Helm of Spite... blurgh. The daemon players measures range and line of sight from one model of their choice, but that's all. One person could argue that the term "range" also applies to the 12'' range of the Helm. The other side could argue that it doesn't, and so as the helm only has to be within 12'' of a psyker, and the (very, very strange) definition of psykers would include the horror unit, it only has to be within 12'' on one psyker.

This is more or less the problem. On the one hand the Brotherhood rules give instructions for measuring range etc from one model. The counter-argument re the Helm of Spite that has been presented to me is that even though one model is nominated, the unit as a whole constitutes a psyker and indeed the whole unit is actually manifesting the power.

Mallich wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
2. Separate to question 1, if the casting results in a Perils, and you successfully get the buff result on a roll of a 6, do all the Horror models get the buff or just the nominated model?

BRB, Perils of the Warp, wrote:If the unit has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, the effects of the Perils of the Warp result apply a [sic] randomly determined model in the unit who has the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule.

I somehow missed this sentence but it's pretty clear.

Mallich wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
3. If you get the result on the Warpstorm table that selects an enemy psyker and removes it from play (can't remember the exact wording atm), and a Brotherhood of Psykers unit is selected (e.g. a Grey Knight squad), is the whole unit removed from play? EDIT: It's result 11 - Daemonic Possession, where the selected Psyker is replaced by a Herald.

Look at the first page of the Psychic Phase in the BRB, "Psykers and Psychic Powers", paragraph two, where it defines the term "Psyker".

That paragraph isn't really all that helpful. It seems to say that the terms "Psyker" and "Psyker Unit" are equivalent and interchangeable, and apply to any unit containing a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood rules. Going back to my first question though, if all the models in a unit with the Brotherhood rule constitute a single psyker, then applied to this scenario I assume the whole unit would be removed if they suffered Daemonic Possession from the Warpstorm table. That would be rough on a 10-man unit of Grey Knight Paladins.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Going back to my first question though, if all the models in a unit with the Brotherhood rule constitute a single psyker, then applied to this scenario I assume the whole unit would be removed if they suffered Daemonic Possession from the Warpstorm table. That would be rough on a 10-man unit of Grey Knight Paladins.

Well, consider what happens with the Malefic Greater Daemon power: if Horrors cast it, the whole Brotherhood unit is removed. It's a similar mechanic.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
That paragraph isn't really all that helpful. It seems to say that the terms "Psyker" and "Psyker Unit" are equivalent and interchangeable, and apply to any unit containing a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood rules [...]

Indeed. Daemonic Possession removes a psyker. The BRB defines a psyker as any unit with the psyker/psychic pilot/brotherhood of psykers rules. Therefore, daemonic possession would remove a unit with the psyker/psychic pilot/brotherhood of psykers rules. Say, a 10-strong Grey Knight Paladin squad. And the 6 non-psychic independent characters that joined the squad.

However, I can see a counter-argument. Of course. Some psychic powers affect the "Psyker and all models in his unit" (e.g. Sanctuary), even the models that don't have the psyker/psychic pilot/brotherhood of psykers rules. Other powers just target the Psyker (e.g. Precognition, Warp Speed). This doesn't make much sense if the term "Psyker" includes all the models in their unit anyway- the "all models in his unit" bit is redundant. If your gaming group argues that powers that just affect the psyker (Precognition, Warp Speed, etc) will actually affect more than one model, than they would probably have the Daemonic Possession warp storm result affecting more than one model. If your group says that such powers only affect one model, they might have the Daemonic Possession warp storm result only affecting one model.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Well, consider what happens with the Malefic Greater Daemon power: if Horrors cast it, the whole Brotherhood unit is removed. It's a similar mechanic.

The Malefic power explicitly states that "if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties". The warp storm table doesn't have that, so I really don't know what the intention is anymore.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Going back to my first question though, if all the models in a unit with the Brotherhood rule constitute a single psyker, then applied to this scenario I assume the whole unit would be removed if they suffered Daemonic Possession from the Warpstorm table. That would be rough on a 10-man unit of Grey Knight Paladins.

Well, consider what happens with the Malefic Greater Daemon power: if Horrors cast it, the whole Brotherhood unit is removed. It's a similar mechanic.

"If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that specifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amongst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule." The Possession result removes a random model from within the unit with Brotherhood of Psykers.

(You could argue that Possession is not an 'attack' per se, the RAW is unclear, but this is the interpretation that makes the most sense to me)

AnomanderRake, other possession result. You're talking about the result on the Perils of the Warp table. Elric was talking about the Malefic power called "Possession", a 3-warp-charge power. The rules for that power states that "the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties)".


There's also a result on the Warp Storm table called "Possession", just to confuse people.


EDIT: Or perhaps I've misunderstood what you're getting at. I thought that you were trying to correct Elric on how the Malefic power affects horrors. The Warp Storm "Possession" does specifically target psykers, so you raise a good point regarding how said Warp Storm result might work.

Indeed the results of the Warpstorm table are described as effects rather than attacks, although for the ones detailing Hits with an associated profile I can see how a case for them being attacks could be made.

For result 11, Daemonic Possession, neither Attack or Hits are mentioned at all and so it would be hard to argue that hits from that attack are randomly allocated and a random model is replaced by the Herald.

As far as I can see (and for the sake of simplicity not considering other models that might be in the same unit either with or without the psyker rule) if a Brotherhood unit is considered to comprise a single psyker and suffered Daemonic Posession from the Warpstorm table, then they would all be removed.

Mallich wrote:
AnomanderRake, other possession result. You're talking about the result on the Perils of the Warp table. Elric was talking about the Malefic power called "Possession", a 3-warp-charge power. The rules for that power states that "the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties)".


There's also a result on the Warp Storm table called "Possession", just to confuse people.


EDIT: Or perhaps I've misunderstood what you're getting at. I thought that you were trying to correct Elric on how the Malefic power affects horrors. The Warp Storm "Possession" does specifically target psykers, so you raise a good point regarding how said Warp Storm result might work.

I was trying to refer to the Warp Storm table result; I did play Tzeentch Daemons for a while, I do know plenty about psychic wackiness. Honestly I think GK should just be unaffected by the Warp Storm table result and the issue would suddenly not matter, but that'd be too characterful.