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A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.

1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.

2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.

3) Reavers. Nuff' said.

4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.

5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.

mercury14 wrote:
A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.

1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.

2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.

3) Reavers. Nuff' said.

4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.

5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.

Couldn't agree more, I really like the mirage launching trick, i hadn't thought of its potential in an offensive manner, i assume its only against shooting attacks, thus only in effect for overwatch?

I think beast packs are looking like great units, just not for uses as per with baron as it used to be. Multiple small herding packs that can close movement paths off and also work as overwatch fodder, They have the 40 mm bases, so with 3 you can block a 7inch stretch for 30 points. Combined with RSR and 6 fa, easy to squeeze some in where you have given a reasonable chunk of points to harles and are supplimenting with DE

Beast packs are seriously under-rated. In my friendly game last week I ran two of them vs a list of GK terminators (two 10x squads of them) and 2x Dreadknights, a shooty dread, other things, with this 1850 list :

- 10x Khymera, 1x Flock, Beastmaster
- 5x Clawed Fiends, 1x Flock, 2x Khymera, Beastmaster

- 8x Bloodbrides, Hydra, Syrens w/agonizer & haywire, Raider, NS
- 8x Bloodbrides, Hydra, Syrens w/agonizer & haywire, Raider, NS

9x Reavers, 3x Caltrops, heat lance
8x Reavers, 3x Caltrops, heat lance

6x Hellions

5x Mandrakes, infiltrated deep

10x Kabalites, DL, blaster
5x Kabalites, blaster

Ravager, 3x DL
Ravager, 3x DL

Succubus, Archite Glaive, Armor of Misery, went with Bloodbrides

Combat Drugs: +1WS
(disclaimer, yes I know it's a weird list but it worked spectacularly)
...

I kicked the stuffing out of the GK player, winning 8-1. He even had two librarians with invisibility each in a termi squad and I still won big. The moment he would fail invisibility with one of those termi units I was always mobile enough to jump on it with a silly amount of attention and force his GK termis to attack things with invuln. I was forcing his termis to overwatch Mandrakes in cover (lol).

Getting back to Harlequins, I think the same strategy would work. Stay mobile and make jinking Reavers and Khymera soak overwatch and then profit.

Sounds amazing, id love for you to elaborate on your DE list over in the DE tactica thread or something, dont want to clog this thread. Yeh the harlies can replace some of your bloodbrides i suppose, maybe even mandrakes too, i imagine the hellions and a reaver unit could be dropped. Then begin to add in your troupe's and play a heavily aggressive assault based army You'd be fully mobile all the time still and be able to use the harlies as the punch while you dictate the flow with your FA units.

Solar Shock wrote:
Sounds amazing, id love for you to elaborate on your DE list over in the DE tactica thread or something, dont want to clog this thread. Yeh the harlies can replace some of your bloodbrides i suppose, maybe even mandrakes too, i imagine the hellions and a reaver unit could be dropped. Then begin to add in your troupe's and play a heavily aggressive assault based army You'd be fully mobile all the time still and be able to use the harlies as the punch while you dictate the flow with your FA units.

Hellions are awful.... But I painted up ten of them right before the new codex dropped in anticipation of them being buffed and ended up with egg on my face. I don't recommend them as units that can soak overwatch because at 13 pts they're too expensive for that. In my match they lost four of their number to shooting on turn one... Then flew under the radar the rest of the match because they weren't worth attacking, ended up putting a wound on a Dreadknight, and took an objective. Looks good on paper but they only accomplished that much because they're so bad they aren't worth your opponents' attention, especially when under 5 models.

In a list with Harlequins I think their only use would be deep-striking and shooting with their assault 2 poison guns at high-toughness targets.

mercury14 wrote:
A few thoughts come to mind for soaking overwatch.

1) Skyweaver jetbikes. Fire the mirage launcher and assault, T4, 2W, 4++ and you're not likely to lose a model.

2) Wyches. Do you care if you lose a cheap Wych to overwatch? Nope. And you may be able to position your assault so that your opponent has to direct some attacks at the 4++ Wyches which is a win for us.

3) Reavers. Nuff' said.

4) A unit of Khymera. They're T4, fast as heck, don't need cover, and are underpriced at just 10 points. Agonizers go pretty well on Beastmasters as well, as they're no longer characters and can't get challenged. I like to throw in a Razorwing flock for the lucky rending chance, plus it's funny to watch them peck the eyes out of space marines.

5) Two Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster. Or just one solo Fiend.

*cough cough, bump*

I'm very underwhelmed by skyweavers. The haywire being blast in combo with the lack of grenades is just a deal breaker. And 50ppm for a wound sponge is excessive. You could get 2 harliquins with kisses for that price and still have 10 points left over, and so would accomplish more or less the same thing cheaper.

Wyches are great, and actually would go well with Harlies due to being put way down on the priority list in the shooting phase (Harlies are cost more and are scarier). But I'd go warriors for your troops just to cover the lack of ranged shooting in a Harlie detachment. A squad of wyches could be nice, but you don't need more things in CC as much as the shooting.

Beasts are pretty phenominal, this is where the gold is. 10ppm wound soaks? Yes and yes. Alternately, go minimalist on the Harlie side of things in order to unlock shadowseers and run ye-old-beastars of 6th. Veil + HnR keeping these bad boys safe from virtually eveyrhting but overwatch could be amazing. Maybe a DJ or 2 to make that charge easier in case your opponent is trying to back away. As long as you have good air coverage (lolflyrants) it'd make for a decent pressure army.

You could make up for the lack of shooting by just taking 5 man Wyches in Venoms, not to terrible.

Hollismason wrote:
You could make up for the lack of shooting by just taking 5 man Wyches in Venoms, not to terrible.

Could do the same thing w/warriors in venoms cheaper and get 5-10 free shots more. Again, if there's any place wyches work it's in a Harlie list where they go way down on the priority list. But you're bringing more light CC into a list that is made for light CC, there just isn't much synergy. Against most opponents who rely on a heavy ground presence that'll be fine, but if your goal is a TAC list it isn't diversifying your threat range at all. In the current meta, you really do need to plan for FMC's or risk having to play hide and pray for an entire game.

I'd think a big 15 man with Shadowseer Wyche squad would be a good investment, get's hit and run. Get'sthe Psychic ability. Not to shabby.

Okay guys, help me out. The local GW is having an escalation league starting up soon, first round is 500 points, and you have to keep whatever you buy in the next round. It goes up in 250 point increments.

I would like to take the Harlequins out for a spin, but 500 points is a very awkward point level for Harlies. Assuming I can reorganize things into different detachments in later rounds, how would you do this? I have CWE as well.

My initial thought is to start with the Cast of Players, but the minimum investment for that is 215 points (and then I need gear, so it will go higher, minimum to my mind would be 25 points for Kisses/Embraces). Heroes Path is another alternative at 245. Both will greatly restrict what else I can bring in the first round due to the large investment in the formations. Any ideas?

Dang dude, and I struggled with 1k points.

I reckon take a support vehicle (for me thqats a fire prism) and spend the rest on a troupe with support.

Change out whatever support you prefer. Make sure the support can reduce enemies, survive and help with long range vehicle fire power would be my guess.

Then spend the rest on a mega troupe. Depending on your warlord traits and powers you can try make good use of them.

That would be my advice. But you could also swap out a support unit for jetbikes (eldar) and try play for objectives.

 Asmodas wrote:
Okay guys, help me out. The local GW is having an escalation league starting up soon, first round is 500 points, and you have to keep whatever you buy in the next round. It goes up in 250 point increments.

I would like to take the Harlequins out for a spin, but 500 points is a very awkward point level for Harlies. Assuming I can reorganize things into different detachments in later rounds, how would you do this? I have CWE as well.

My initial thought is to start with the Cast of Players, but the minimum investment for that is 215 points (and then I need gear, so it will go higher, minimum to my mind would be 25 points for Kisses/Embraces). Heroes Path is another alternative at 245. Both will greatly restrict what else I can bring in the first round due to the large investment in the formations. Any ideas?

So, do you ahve to keep the models or the exact loadout? Cause Cast of players could be traded in for a DJ/Shadowseer and squad later on. Also, at 500 points you could just do one massive Deathstar blob of Cast. If you have to keep the "squad" but not necessarily all the people in it, scale it back later.

Unbound available? It's GW so I'm guessing that's an option.

Need to have exact rules on what's allowed, exactly what are you carrying forward (formations, or models? Squad slot or Squad size?) As you are required to go forward with what you take, you are definitely right in being deliberate at this stage. Harlies already don't have a ton of flexibility, a bad choice here could hamstring you the rest of the league.

Edit- re-read the post. Looks like you could take cast now and use the squad as a troupe in the detachment later? If so, at this low point range I'd just do a Deathstar Cast. Honestly, outside of the IC formation you can't bring anything else that won't require you to bring skyweavers later. And as you say, cast starts at 215, but you'll spend an easy 65 more points in upgrades (kisses, ML2 SS, mask on SS). leaving you ~120 for allies. You actually can't field anything that way but a barebones autarch and a 3 man JB squad.

As long as you can either A) pair down the squad later to a 5-6 man troupe or B) Keep the same number but split them into squads, I'd just run one large Cast of Players squad. 12 w/Kisses, TM w/haywire+DJ w/haywire +SS w/mask, ML2 + Starweaver = 500 on the nose. Will give you some practice muliti-assaulting and playing safe with Veil.

Bonus: You're games will be quick. No shooting until you charge, then either you or your opponent will be tabled.

I'll be going in tomorrow to pick up the Codex, so I'll get the rest of the rules for the league then. I'll fill you guys in once I know, but my guess is that I'll have to keep whatever I pick, but can organize it however I want it in later rounds (so the super-troupers (ABBA reference FTW) will probably have to stick around, but could become part of a masque instead of a formation in later rounds. We'll see, because, as you guys alluded to, exact rules on how this works will make a big difference.

If it's too restrictive, I'll just bring my Nids. Flyrant with 2x Devourers and just about anything will work at 500 points.

Honestly, keep running cast of players. They give crusader to anyone within 6" so anyone footslogging down field will be able to run a rediculous distance. Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting a 5-6. Then, if you're fighting init 4+, you get the additional d3 to sweep. Positioned correctly, this unit can win you combats just for being nearby.

Asmodas wrote: If it's too restrictive, I'll just bring my Nids. Flyrant with 2x Devourers and just about anything will work at 500 points.

And then every 250 points you could just grab another flyrant and keep dominating the league. I really wish nids required more planning than that. But you can't blame people for spamming the best unit in an otherwise bland codex if GW makes it an option.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:Honestly, keep running cast of players. They give crusader to anyone within 6" so anyone footslogging down field will be able to run a rediculous distance. Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting a 5-6. Then, if you're fighting init 4+, you get the additional d3 to sweep. Positioned correctly, this unit can win you combats just for being nearby.

Since I'm still waiting on my codex......Does cast of players get run/charge as well? I know they get crusader, and I'm strongly considering running a Guardian blob/Cast list in an upcoming monthly tourny. If they get run/charge as well that'll just be gravy. I think crusader + Fleet + Charge is going to catch a lot of people off guard with just how freakin quick they make it across the board. A lot like Warp Spiders actually, which will also be in the list. Essentially crusader should give them the same threat range as a non-blitzing Solitaire.

Crusader doesnt give 2d6 run moves. It gives 2d6 take the highest. So you still max out at 6" (7"with a particular warlord trait).

Goobi2 wrote:
Crusader doesnt give 2d6 run moves. It gives 2d6 take the highest. So you still max out at 6" (7"with a particular warlord trait).

Not sure anyone was saying it did.

Lythrandire Bihrellian wrote: Then, from turn 2 on they can charge afterwards. 2d6, rerollable from fleet, gives you a real decent chance of getting A 5-6.

Emphasis mine.

We're more remarking that the combo of ignoring terrain, and reliably getting a 5+ on your run roll essentially makes them a beast unit. If they do indeed get run charge, this formation is a rock solid choice.

Cast of players does not get rising crescendo unfortunately so no crusader plus run then charge for that unit. Adding the cast of players to a masque is viable though as the crusader rule from the cast is a bubble effect

THE HEROES’ PATH

FORMATION:
1 Troupe
1 Death Jester
1 Shadowseer

RESTRICTIONS:
All models in this Formation must be deployed as a single unit. The Formation’s Shadowseer and Death Jester cannot leave the Formation’s Troupe.

SPECIAL RULES:
• Crusader
Heralds of the Laughing God: Any models with the Eldar or Dark Eldar Faction (friend or foe) within 6" of one or more models from this Formation have the Crusader special rule.

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Harlequins.” iBooks.

No. They do not.

So you can't even combine it with harlequins as they don't have the faction required! Good catch

 Massaen wrote:
Cast of players does not get rising crescendo unfortunately so no crusader plus run then charge for that unit. Adding the cast of players to a masque is viable though as the crusader rule from the cast is a bubble effect

Was pretty sure they didn't. It really would make Cast of Players a bit OTT. As long as veil was in effect your opponent would almost never get to shoot prior to assault. 6" move, 5-6" run = 11-12" reliably before a 8-10" charge for a total of 20" threat range. Being as average site range on Veil is 14", Cast would be virtually untouchable. Throw in Invis, and it's maybe one of the best deathstars in the game.

Still though, crusader bubble has its uses. Wyche blobs, guardian blobs, grotesque blobs, wrack blobs etc. etc. I'm really interested to see how it works with a footdar type list, Guardians getting a reliable 24" threat range could be interesting.

Just wanted to share my experiences of using the 'Quins.

I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.

Finally, i know many people disagree but i stand by it, the Power Weapon for the Troupe Master. Reliable AP3 is useful, i have the speed to avoid 2+ saves and 5 Ws 6 Str 4 hits at initiative higher-then-you has been the end of every MEQ champion i have came across. I roll caress on the players, and seem to roll 6's like lightning, but in a challenge i find when i needed them, they didn't show.

Alex.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Just wanted to share my experiences of using the 'Quins.

I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.

Finally, i know many people disagree but i stand by it, the Power Weapon for the Troupe Master. Reliable AP3 is useful, i have the speed to avoid 2+ saves and 5 Ws 6 Str 4 hits at initiative higher-then-you has been the end of every MEQ champion i have came across. I roll caress on the players, and seem to roll 6's like lightning, but in a challenge i find when i needed them, they didn't show.

Alex.

No doubt Sword on the TM is the highest output option. It's just so expensive. At 10 points it'd be a done deal, but 15 is pushing it.

I'm interested in your experience with the shadowseers in the box, I wonder if you'd elaborate more. I keep seeing people talk about putting SS's with a troupe in a Starweaver, and I just wonder why? The starweaver is fast enough to get you a turn 2 charge, meaning you don't really need veil often, and he's not bringing much to the table otherwise (some people have mentioned concussion for sweeps, but are you really worried about your opponents Initiative as a Harlequin?). And, as you mentioned, they're as likely as not to die when your starweaver blows up/gets blasted/templated which another trouper would have done just as well. Would you say your experiences agree/disagree with those assumptions?

Given that bias, I'm pretty well sold on not sticking SS's in Starweavers. They (starweavers) don't offer enough protection to be worth it, and you're robbing yourself of opportunities to cast. Put em with troops on the ground to abuse veil as much as possible. Shadowseers are the gems of the codex, squeeze every ounce of utility out of them you can.

I would agree that they aren't being used to their full effectiveness when inside the Starweaver, as Veil is being wasted. But they are also not useless, when i managed to put Stealth + Shrouded on the Starweaver it survived an obnoxious amount of fire power. I also found the Shadowseer was surprisingly useful in combat, she helped massively against tyranid monstrous creatures when those 6's weren't enough. That being said, i think i will still run the Starweaver but will not run the Troupe inside it. I used to play a lot of Venoms, so i know what i am comparing it to, and those Duel Shurican Cannons are just pure gold.

I was thinking instead of the Power Weapon i could use Cegorarch's rose? It's the same points as the Power Weapon and is more likely to do that single wound then the Power Weapon. Which do you think makes the best challenge-centric troupe master?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would agree that they aren't being used to their full effectiveness when inside the Starweaver, as Veil is being wasted. But they are also not useless, when i managed to put Stealth + Shrouded on the Starweaver it survived an obnoxious amount of fire power. I also found the Shadowseer was surprisingly useful in combat, she helped massively against tyranid monstrous creatures when those 6's weren't enough. That being said, i think i will still run the Starweaver but will not run the Troupe inside it. I used to play a lot of Venoms, so i know what i am comparing it to, and those Duel Shurican Cannons are just pure gold.

I was thinking instead of the Power Weapon i could use Cegorarch's rose? It's the same points as the Power Weapon and is more likely to do that single wound then the Power Weapon. Which do you think makes the best challenge-centric troupe master?

Agreed on Starweavers. Pound for pound better than a venom, and venoms are already pretty good. S6 and pseudo rend more than make up for lack of shots (I can't roll a 4 to wound to save my life). Mirage launchers are just gravy.

For a challenge-centric TM, I'd think starmist rainment + whateveweaponyouwant. For me, a challenge soak in Harlies is for absorbing high S, high WS attacks that will be the bane of your existence. At WS6, most things are going to hit you on a 4, add in a 3++ and there's not a ton of things you will be overly concerned about. You may not kill the challenged character, but if you prevent wounds form going on your troupes he's done his job. Troupers kill the rest of the squad, then in the next round it doesn't matter that the TMs lost his 3++: cause now your troupers are piling on their attacks as well. In this loadout, your TM could fairly reasonably survive a head to head with a SM CM w/shield eternal/TH. That's 250 points (artificer, bike) worth of beatstick you are very likely to see at some point, being checked by ~70 points worth of TM. Who cares if you kill him? Next round he's getting the full love and attention of the rest of your squad.

Also helps with soaking over watch too.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Just wanted to share my experiences of using the 'Quins.

I've been using a 5 man troupe with a Shadowseer in a Starweaver and it's been pretty fun. I've found that they are still a premier assault unit, as when they make combat they usually win by the second phase or hit'n'run out, rarely losing many models. I've also found open-topped SUCKS! d6 hits on the guys inside is always expensive from every single blast is very bad for expensive t3 models. I'm wondering if it would not be better to leave them out of it? I usually loose 2 models from blasts, and i am very lucky with invulnerable saves. On that note, Get the Harlequin dice! I use them for every harlequin related roll and they are ridiculously lucky.
.

Blast weapons do not have the No Escape rule that Template weapons have. You shouldn't be allowing your opponents those hits.

The starweaver is better than the venom vs targets with lower armor saves, such as marines and terminators assuming they are out of cover. The venom is better at targets with higher toughness and higher armor saves. The venom is a better generalist vehicle that can easily fire at any non-vehicle target. However the starweaver can do some damage to vehicles. It will do an average of 2 hp to the rear armor of most vehicles which is nothing to sneeze at. Both are pretty good, but also fragile.

Lately I have been thinking that foot harlequins are the way to go. Veil of tears is just better defense than the starweaver and the harlequins themselves are extremely mobile. Those two starweavers you probably bought to fill up your fast attack slot can be given to your dark kin allies because they need something to ride around on. Plus the shadpw seer's gernades can help mitigate overwatch.


What do you all think of a troupe armed with caresses and a shadow seer armed with haywire gernades as anti-tank? The troupe will do about 3.5 hp alone and the shadowseer can do one in the shooting and one in the assault phase.

That unit is about 200 points - not exactly efficient as you still have to get it to the target. Sky weavers with haywire do that better with a long threat range. They are not efficient either - haywire DE scourges show this clearly! I could get nearly 8 haywire shots from them for the same cost!

I think the troupes need to be able to dump 3hp in 2 rounds of combat (kill a dread) bug otherwise find your primary AT elsewhere

 lambsandlions wrote:
The starweaver is better than the venom vs targets with lower armor saves, such as marines and terminators assuming they are out of cover. The venom is better at targets with higher toughness and higher armor saves. The venom is a better generalist vehicle that can easily fire at any non-vehicle target. However the starweaver can do some damage to vehicles. It will do an average of 2 hp to the rear armor of most vehicles which is nothing to sneeze at. Both are pretty good, but also fragile.

Lately I have been thinking that foot harlequins are the way to go. Veil of tears is just better defense than the starweaver and the harlequins themselves are extremely mobile. Those two starweavers you probably bought to fill up your fast attack slot can be given to your dark kin allies because they need something to ride around on. Plus the shadpw seer's gernades can help mitigate overwatch.


What do you all think of a troupe armed with caresses and a shadow seer armed with haywire gernades as anti-tank? The troupe will do about 3.5 hp alone and the shadowseer can do one in the shooting and one in the assault phase.

Pretty much what Massaen said. Haywire grenades are fine, because they're cheap so why not. Going with carresses with the thought of AT is a lot of points to do something inefficiently. Nothing in the Harlie codex really does AT well. Skyweavers w/haywire are 110 points. For 10 more points you can get scourges that have twice the shots, same range, and more wounds w/ same armor that can also get cover w/o snap shooting. In a codex that's as expensive as Harlies, you really can't be throwing away any points, and caresses just aren't good enough to justify a 60% price increase except on the solitaire where his # of attacks makes it likely you could get 2 attacks as opposed to a kisses guaranteed attack.

Or put another way: In the scenario you propose, if you trade out all the caresses for kisses and give the TM a haywire grendade instead, you do 2 HP from the TM throwing grendades in shooting/assault plus 4 other S6 attacks. Anything AV12 and down you're likely to do nearly as many HPs, but save yourself 10 points in doing so- nearly enough for another body.

As Footquins go, I agree. VoT > Starweaver as far as protection goes. However, you're already buying 2 Starweavers for your FA, and your points can get eaten up quick by Shadowseers. It's a balancing act as to whether you want more reliable protection for your Harlies, or more points for allies (which you need for AT/AA).

But that's nothing against Starweavers. I love em. I think you've flipped venoms and starweavers in your assesment. Venoms are focused on T value targets. Shuriken cannons can target anyone or thing. Personally I value the versatility more, especially in an army that's as skimpy on even light AT as the Harlie dex is.

 Massaen wrote:
That unit is about 200 points - not exactly efficient as you still have to get it to the target. Sky weavers with haywire do that better with a long threat range. They are not efficient either - haywire DE scourges show this clearly! I could get nearly 8 haywire shots from them for the same cost!

I think the troupes need to be able to dump 3hp in 2 rounds of combat (kill a dread) bug otherwise find your primary AT elsewhere

you are going to be taking the shadow seer and kisses On your troupe anyway, the real cost upgrade is 5 points for the gernade and 15points to upgrade to caresses. The unit is just as good taking out its normal targets but for 20 points it gets the added bonus of being able to deal with tanks.