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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
It's been well studied, violent video games do not make people violent. Sexist games don't make people sexist.

Most people are smart enough to know games are games and in no way reality. Acceptable behavior in the real world, has nothing to do with what games people play and how they play them.

Actually, it is not as simple as that. People do not mimic the comportment from games in real life, but that does not mean games do not influence people. To take an example with TV-show instead of games, the frequent torture scene from 24, and the way they are portrayed (i.e. as an efficient way to save lives, with barely any focus on the consequences for the person being tortured, or portrayal of innocents being mistaken for guilty and therefore tortured) is going to have some influence on how much society as a whole is willing to allow the government to get away with torture. It would not make them torture themselves, but it changes their perception of torture.

Speak for yourself. I loved 24, but I want those people in the American and British Governments and security communities prosecuted for their involvement in torture and "extraordinary rendition". It's a disgrace that Guantanamo Bay is still open, with many prisoners who've never received a trial. It's a disgrace that the previous British Labour Government colluded with America in kidnapping and "renditioning" people (including some British citizens), sending them abroad to be tortured, and allowing the CIA to operate extraordinary renditioning flights out of Britain.

I love war films, but in the real world I'm very anti war in general.

I can separate fact from fiction and I would hope that the average person can too.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Speak for yourself.

Not myself, just the public as a whole. Sure it will not change everyone's mind. But it will definitely influence some people.

Games, movies and books are not all that different at least in some plot or story is concerned.

Games at least have interaction so the level of engagement is that much more (though choose your own adventure books were funny).

What we tend to get critical of is how much the game allows for some more controversial decisions of the gamer.

We are not a passive consumer, we expect more freedom, more immersion, more self expression within the game including indulging our darker nature.

It is how far the game designer allows things to progress before drawing a line in the sand that seems to get all that controversy where critics say "It is in the game!" where the developer could say "Yes, but you did not have to go there you sick puppy."

The gamer culture keeps seeming like spoiled kids demanding more while more parental types are calling for limits.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
There has been many studies and even a few congressional hearings, and this is the reality: violent video games do not make people violent. Sexist games don't make people sexist.

Violent video game do not make people violent. Constantly portraying female characters in certain stereotypical ways and roles in fiction, across all the different kind of media, will very likely have an effect on the perception of real-life women.

Any proof of it? Hint: No. it's the same argument for violence & sexism, you can't say yes to one, and no to the other.

But I'll play along, is it a positive perception or a negative one? I'll grant that almost all tropes are used by lazy writters, but as everything has been done, coming up with anything new is not likely to happen. Yet if some great new story does come out, it will be heavily copied until it is reduced to yet another trope.

Yes the tropes exist, but that is all we can claim for sure. it's effects are up for debate, but if it's across all different kinds of media, why is it just being brought up in one? Shouldn't we start with the beginnings of the trope and call for more female role models in the bible, poems, and books? Let's call for some rewrites, and petition for a "passion of the christ" remake with a black female as jesus. If people were outraged over the human torch, imagine the outrage over this one Let's rewrite "tom sawyer" with a female lead. Let's rewrite "the raven" with a female lead. Let's put male models on the cover of cosmo. Surely if it's across all media you should start at the biggest money makers, with more female leads in movies, it would directly equate to more female leads in games based off those movies. Why start at the bottom?

how is the "damsel in distress" trope any worse than say "Blaming bad behavior on bad parenting " trope. surely "The chosen one" would be a better area of focus. If the "damsel in distress" trope is sexists, than surely "Magical Negroes and Noble Savages" trope is racists. And as active as the struggle against racism has been in the US since desegregating the schools, it has never been brought up.

Tropes are tropes, there's nothing inherently good or bad about them. They're like a gun, it's just a tool, guns don't kill people, and tropes don't make people sexist.

sirlynchmob wrote:
it's the same argument for violence & sexism, you can't say yes to one, and no to the other.

No it is not the same argument.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
People do not mimic the comportment from games in real life, but that does not mean games do not influence people. […] It would not make them torture themselves, but it changes their perception of torture.

Saying violent video game makes people violent is saying people mimic the game in real life. Saying sexist games make people sexists is saying games influence people's opinions.

sirlynchmob wrote:
I'll grant that almost all tropes are used by lazy writters, but as everything has been done, coming up with anything new is not likely to happen. Yet if some great new story does come out, it will be heavily copied until it is reduced to yet another trope.

Again, I said nothing about avoiding all tropes.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Yes the tropes exist, but that is all we can claim for sure. it's effects are up for debate, but if it's across all different kinds of media, why is it just being brought up in one?

Have you heard of all the video Anita Sarkeesian made on movies?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Shouldn't we start with the beginnings of the trope and call for more female role models in the bible, poems, and books?

Nobody is calling for rewrites, just for a change in the new stuff. And yeah, in books and movies too.

sirlynchmob wrote:
surely "The chosen one" would be a better area of focus.

Why?

sirlynchmob wrote:
If the "damsel in distress" trope is sexists, than surely "Magical Negroes and Noble Savages" trope is racists. And as active as the struggle against racism has been in the US since desegregating the schools, it has never been brought up.

Have you missed the whole “Black characters die first” being a trope, and then being criticized and parodied to death? Are you voluntarily blinding yourself to all the criticism movies receive for racism, whitewashing and all that?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Tropes are tropes, there's nothing inherently good or bad about them.

Yeah. Nothing bad about tropes like “Jews are greedy bastard that control the media and the finance”. It is totally fine and nobody should object to that. Any other inane opinion you have to add? Tropes are tropes. They can be good or bad. They can be used right or wrong.

sirlynchmob wrote:
They're like a gun, it's just a tool, guns don't kill people, and tropes don't make people sexist.

Guns kill peoples. But let me ask you, then. What makes people sexists? What make people racists?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
There has been many studies and even a few congressional hearings, and this is the reality: violent video games do not make people violent. Sexist games don't make people sexist.

Violent video game do not make people violent. Constantly portraying female characters in certain stereotypical ways and roles in fiction, across all the different kind of media, will very likely have an effect on the perception of real-life women.

Ok, no. If Violent Video Games do not make people violent, then Sexist Video Games do not make people sexist. You can't have it both ways there.



Also, as for the comment about AIDS and HIV not being solved because we haven't thrown enough money at it, I was unaware that curing a disease rooted in multiple facets of the human condition is the same as programming a couple of extra pixels on a character's chest. One of these problems is a question of "Will it Make Money", the other is "Will this get rid of one thing without fething things up worse".



As for my game, No. I have not done it for several reasons; one of which is as much as I love playing games I want to have my life be doing something else rather than making games and going home to play games. Another being I would much rather take my coding skills and make GIANT ROBOTS (Chicks dig giant robots, you dig giant robots, we dig giant robots..... Nice.....) when I get my 3D Printer.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
There has been many studies and even a few congressional hearings, and this is the reality: violent video games do not make people violent. Sexist games don't make people sexist.

Violent video game do not make people violent. Constantly portraying female characters in certain stereotypical ways and roles in fiction, across all the different kind of media, will very likely have an effect on the perception of real-life women.

Eh...no. It's illogical to assume such a thing...for the exact same reason you stated before.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Ok, no. If Violent Video Games do not make people violent, then Sexist Video Games do not make people sexist. You can't have it both ways there.

I can. And repeating that I cannot is not going to change that. If you have nothing to answer to my explanations of why, then just shut up and do not answer.
And you know what? I am going to go even further. Adolf Hitler was a male antisemitic politician that pushed a lot of people toward becoming more antisemitic, but none of them toward becoming more male. “But”, I hear you cry in an anguished voice, “you cannot have it both way. If male politicians do not make people male, then antisemitic politicians cannot possibly make people antisemitic!”.
Uh uh.

 Slarg232 wrote:
As for my game, No. I have not done it for several reasons; one of which is as much as I love playing games I want to have my life be doing something else rather than making games and going home to play games. Another being I would much rather take my coding skills and make GIANT ROBOTS (Chicks dig giant robots, you dig giant robots, we dig giant robots..... Nice.....) when I get my 3D Printer.

So, stop being hypocritical and asking me to do my own games.

If you want to mak blanket statements, then you'll need proof. Anything else is opinion.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:


/snip to much nonsense.

Guns kill peoples. But let me ask you, then. What makes people sexists? What make people racists?

speaking of insanity, Guns kill people? LOL, so the guns should be put in jail and not the person using it.

In general how kids are raised by their parents and being raised christian has been shown to be a factor in racism and sexism. Just like what makes kids grow up to abuse their kids? They were raised that way. They were abused, the cycle of violence continues and now they abuse.

I'm glad you agree with me:

They can be good or bad. They can be used right or wrong.

how to games influence our opinions? again, it's been studied, the answer is "none at all" but again, is it a positive influence or a negative one?
So you'd claim

Nothing bad about tropes like “Jews are greedy bastard that control the media and the finance”

causes antisemitism? Another claim without a shred of proof.

What kind of statement do you want me to prove? I mean, do you want me to prove that Hitler pushed people toward antisemitism? Or do you want me to prove he did not push people toward becoming male?

If you want to state that there's direct correlation between two things, in this very case sexism and video games, then you have to prove it. Especially when there's direct counter-evidence strongly supporting the opposite.

sirlynchmob wrote:
speaking of insanity, Guns kill people? LOL, so the guns should be put in jail and not the person using it.

What kind of logic is that?
Car accidents kill people, diseases kill people, earthquakes kill people and sharks sometime kill people. We put none of them in prison. And yeah, the person that fired the gun also killed the person, and this one we are likely going to put in prison.

sirlynchmob wrote:
In general how kids are raised by their parents and being raised christian has been shown to be a factor in racism and sexism.

And how does parents influence their kids, hum? Magical fairies? Brain operations? Or by telling them stuff? Which is exactly what games will do?

sirlynchmob wrote:
how to games influence our opinions? again, it's been studied, the answer is "none at all"

Nah. That is just what you like to pretend. A game is a medium. They can convey ideas. You are convinced by ideas.

sirlynchmob wrote:
So you'd claim

Nothing bad about tropes like “Jews are greedy bastard that control the media and the finance”

causes antisemitism? Another claim without a shred of proof.

Yeah, I claim that constant repetition of antisemitic ideas in the media will cause antisemitism. As for proof, well, history. Ask Sigvatr about his country in the thirties.

One difference between violence and sexism is reinforcement out of the game. Like a game might encourage you to shot and stab in the game, but when you get out of the game your put back into a culture that universally tells you don't shoot don't stab. With something like oggleing your not dropped back into a culture that says don't oggle. (We just say don't get caught.)

 Sigvatr wrote:
If you want to state that there's direct correlation between two things, in this very case sexism and video games, then you have to prove it.

The correlation I draw was between sexist video games, and sexist media in general, with sexism. And… yeah, the correlation is right there in the name .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The correlation I draw was between sexist video games, and sexist media in general, with sexism. And… yeah, the correlation is right there in the name .

That's not a correlation. That's your opinion.

 Sigvatr wrote:
That's not a correlation.

Are you saying there is no correlation between sexist video game and sexism?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
speaking of insanity, Guns kill people? LOL, so the guns should be put in jail and not the person using it.

What kind of logic is that?
Car accidents kill people, diseases kill people, earthquakes kill people and sharks sometime kill people. We put none of them in prison. And yeah, the person that fired the gun also killed the person, and this one we are likely going to put in prison.

So what you're saying is that Cars kill people, right?


Also, with my game, I'm not telling other people to do it. I am only saying that that was my idea.

I, someone who has no interest in making a game with a woman character in it solely because of inequality, actually took the time to sit down and come up with an idea in which it would happen, I came up with mechanics for the game, came up with stories, bosses, and everything I needed to put the game in motion. I just chose not to because I want my life to mean more than just video games.


What you need to take from that is someone who doesn't care about the issues did more work to rectify said issues than someone sitting on their ass whining that other people won't pander to their needs.

Car tends to kill people when they happen to run them over, yes . Or maybe you do believe that those people just die at the same moment by pure luck?

 Slarg232 wrote:
What you need to take from that is someone who doesn't care about the issues did more work to rectify said issues than someone sitting on their ass whining that other people won't pander to their needs.

Uh uh uh.
You should have invested that time to create moar ethics instead. You need moar ethics in your video game journalism.
Let us get serious. Your “work” is just, pure and simple, useless. You just had your little fun. How you even dare call this work is beyond me. And it certainly was not made to fix an issue you pretend do not even exist.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, I claim that constant repetition of antisemitic ideas in the media will cause antisemitism. As for proof, well, history. Ask Sigvatr about his country in the thirties.

LOL, ok so what media influenced hitler? What video games did he play?

And how does parents influence their kids, hum? Magical fairies? Brain operations? Or by telling them stuff? Which is exactly what games will do?

Kids see how parents act, if the parent is a racists, the kid will pick up on it and be a racists. They never once have to tell the kid specifically to be racists. Kids of alcoholics become alcoholics. kids of drug users, become drug users. no amount of video games, tv, or stories will change this.

How do kids treat their spouse? the same way they observed their mom & dad being treated. Boys will seek out someone who treats them they way their father was treated. Same with girls.

Ending a trope in video games or even all media, will have any net impact on society nor reduce sexism.

We can already see the decline of sexism, look at how women were treated in the work place 60 years ago, and how they are treated now. Sexism is on the decline even with a rise of the damsel in distress trope being so pervasive. since you're so fond of anecdotal evidence, Look how muslims in the middle east treat their women, I bet it's because they don't play enough video games. One could even claim that the distress trope being so pervasive is the reason for the decline of sexism.

sirlynchmob wrote:
LOL, ok so what media influenced hitler?

I do not know. You may think this is stupid, but yeah, learning what kind of book he read, who he talked to and how he got his idea is certainly a question worth asking. But anyhow, what I was referring to is how he used the media to influence others, not the other way around. For starter, he used a book. He also had those huge speeches.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Kids see how parents act, if the parent is a racists, the kid will pick up on it and be a racists.

So, do they pick up only from parents because of some magical link, or could they pick up from other people?

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can already see the decline of sexism, look at how women were treated in the work place 60 years ago, and how they are treated now.

And look at what made the change happen, too.

sirlynchmob wrote:
One could even claim that the distress trope being so pervasive is the reason for the decline of sexism.

One would be pretty damn idiotic, then.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
LOL, ok so what media influenced hitler?

I do not know. You may think this is stupid, but yeah, learning what kind of book he read, who he talked to and how he got his idea is certainly a question worth asking. But anyhow, what I was referring to is how he used the media to influence others, not the other way around. For starter, he used a book. He also had those huge speeches.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Kids see how parents act, if the parent is a racists, the kid will pick up on it and be a racists.

So, do they pick up only from parents because of some magical link, or could they pick up from other people?

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can already see the decline of sexism, look at how women were treated in the work place 60 years ago, and how they are treated now.

And look at what made the change happen, too.

sirlynchmob wrote:
One could even claim that the distress trope being so pervasive is the reason for the decline of sexism.

One would be pretty damn idiotic, then.

Give me proof that sexism in games equates to actual sexism, you know, like with violence.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:


So, do they pick up only from parents because of some magical link, or could they pick up from other people?

You'll understand this when you have kids. other people? no, always traced back to the parents, yes. Your kids will turn out to be just like you.
Magic link? now who's not dealing with reality, that's twice you've mentioned magic when raising kids.

sirlynchmob wrote:
One could even claim that the distress trope being so pervasive is the reason for the decline of sexism.

One would be pretty damn idiotic, then.

psst, it's the same argument you are making, same logic, same proof. I'm glad you're realizing how it looks.

 Soladrin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
LOL, ok so what media influenced hitler?

I do not know. You may think this is stupid, but yeah, learning what kind of book he read, who he talked to and how he got his idea is certainly a question worth asking. But anyhow, what I was referring to is how he used the media to influence others, not the other way around. For starter, he used a book. He also had those huge speeches.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Kids see how parents act, if the parent is a racists, the kid will pick up on it and be a racists.

So, do they pick up only from parents because of some magical link, or could they pick up from other people?

sirlynchmob wrote:
We can already see the decline of sexism, look at how women were treated in the work place 60 years ago, and how they are treated now.

And look at what made the change happen, too.

sirlynchmob wrote:
One could even claim that the distress trope being so pervasive is the reason for the decline of sexism.

One would be pretty damn idiotic, then.

Give me proof that sexism in games equates to actual sexism, you know, like with violence.

Yep. Played tons of COD, Halo, GTA, and have yet to grab an M-16, assault a hooker so I can get back my investment, or rob liquor stores. I treat my prostitutes with respect

Edit: before you go off about sexism, I am all for a woman president (who is competent, no damn Sarah Palin), am happily married to a woman I respect, and have a daughter.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Car tends to kill people when they happen to run them over, yes . Or maybe you do believe that those people just die at the same moment by pure luck?

 Slarg232 wrote:
What you need to take from that is someone who doesn't care about the issues did more work to rectify said issues than someone sitting on their ass whining that other people won't pander to their needs.

Uh uh uh.
You should have invested that time to create moar ethics instead. You need moar ethics in your video game journalism.
Let us get serious. Your “work” is just, pure and simple, useless. You just had your little fun. How you even dare call this work is beyond me. And it certainly was not made to fix an issue you pretend do not even exist.

A) You make it sound as though video game journalism doesn't matter, which means by extension you don't think video games matter. So why are you arguing that they cause sexism again?


B) If Video Games cause Sexism, what games have they been playing for the past 2,000 years?

I can legally, and would go through the effort of getting back to the states to vote for Elizabeth Warren.

I'd put daughters on top of any list looking at the decline of sexism.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
That's not a correlation.

Are you saying there is no correlation between sexist video game and sexism?

Correct. Until there is proof that it does, it doesn't. Period. Assuming the opposite is highly illogical as you'd assume stuff without proof. Thinking that playing video games with sexist content causes sexist behavior puts one in the same corner as people thinking that violent video games cause violent behavior and frequently masturbating causes AIDS.

I'd have to say that if games don't induce more violent behavior then they don't induce sexism. The are both ideas of behavior and social construct. Hell the damsel trope could even be looked at (if it influences behavior that is) as actually changing peoples ideas towards women that they are valuable , far more so than men- since there isn't a youth in distress trope. But then again i might be slightly facetious.

I'd agree you cannot have it both ways. If games influence behaviour then games influence behaviour.
I'd argue that what has reduced sexism in society was the forced induction of women into the workforce in ww1 and ww2. You have 2 generations of women proving that they could work as well as men thereby imparting that idea to their children. It certainly isn't "media commentators" giving lectures.

At the end of the day it's no different than o-reilly or some other pundit saying something along the lines of rap music causes crime in poor areas.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
speaking of insanity, Guns kill people? LOL, so the guns should be put in jail and not the person using it.

What kind of logic is that?
Car accidents kill people, diseases kill people, earthquakes kill people and sharks sometime kill people. We put none of them in prison. And yeah, the person that fired the gun also killed the person, and this one we are likely going to put in prison.

Technically, The car can get impounded, The Sharks if caught put down, and the gun usually gets perma locked into evidence if not straight confiscated no?