Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Fine Sommers isn't a feminist and therefore she is a liar. In that being, Anita is also not a gamer and lied to everyone on that. We can also agree that Anita, Simmers, and Milo are also pretty shifty people that are generally playing us to get views revenue and attention and the delicious sensationalism that they all crave.

I agree with this

Anita is a feminist, but that doesn't have to mean I agree with her business practices.

Nor all her opinions
No offense, I have never cared for sex negative outlook though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What is a gamer?

A label and self identity just as feminism is, just as a Brony is, just as a Trekky is, just as a Cinemophile.

just as a #meninist.

Meninist
meninism

Sounds funny!

Shouldn't it be like

Mascinism?

 StarTrotter wrote:
No offense, I have never cared for sex negative outlook though

I feel dividing stuff into sex-positive and sex-negative so much misses the point, most of the time. What matters is not if there is some sexy aspect, it is all about how it is done. It can be positive or negative.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Fine Sommers isn't a feminist and therefore she is a liar. In that being, Anita is also not a gamer and lied to everyone on that. We can also agree that Anita, Simmers, and Milo are also pretty shifty people that are generally playing us to get views revenue and attention and the delicious sensationalism that they all crave.

This might put me in the minority, but I have no issues with Anita whatsoever. I don't consider her very academic, but other people treating her as an academic source is on them, not her.

If she got money from people to make a youtube series, more power to her. She's making what they want to see.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I would rather you explained to me how saying Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy. Or how this is somehow different from Sommers calling herself a feminist. Maybe you will finally answer that. Thanks.

Sure, point out where I said Idi Amin Dada is not Scottish is a fallacy, and I'll address that.

I can wait.

So considering I've said nothing whatsoever about Idi Amin Dada (considering its a red herring) does this mean I can safely not answer your bizarre comparison?

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
What is a gamer?

a miserable pile of cartridges?

I confess to laughing at this

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Feminazis.

Mysogynists .

What?

Ashiraya wrote:Where do all these radicals even come from?

I have spent a not-insignificant part of my life arguing for feminism, demonstrating, debating in various groups and organisations, talking with representatives from more organisations and the whole damn shebang you'd expect from an activist, and I have never in my entire life encountered a 'feminazi'.

Are they really such a big problem? It seems absurd that something so obscure and so absent from where things actually happen would get to represent the movement.

It's like letting my neighbour Klas represent the movie industry as a whole because he made a home movie.

You not noticing them doesn't mean they're obscure, it means you don't notice them. Which makes sense because cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias would make you disinclined to label someone who's on "your side" as "radical".

That said I think the majority of feminists are pretty reasonable people with reasonable beliefs, and that there's a vocal minority who are unreasonable. It's the idiots in the vocal minority who are the most combative, do the most debating, blogging etc though and the reasonable ones don't call them out on their bs, thus they make the entire movement look silly.

Oh, I forgot to add that I also take Anita at her word that she's a gamer

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
So considering I've said nothing whatsoever about Idi Amin Dada (considering its a red herring) does this mean I can safely not answer your bizarre comparison?

Nope. Applying your reasoning implies Idi Amin Dada is Scottish. As this is false, you should get the hint that your reasoning is invalid.

A few things here: (I am ready for your rage)

Sommers is a feminist. Her opposition would claim otherwise because she's not party to their "third wave" feminism, but she is still a feminist. She has gained support from zee ebil gamerz by thoroughly trouncincing their detractors.

Milo, I don't have any problems with. He actually gained a lot of brownie points by revealing the Game Jounos (sp?) Pro list, of which his opposition swiftly tried to denounce him on in spite of their blatant move of playing it down.

Anita isn't a gamer, nor is she a feminist. At most is call her a mouth piece for Johnathan McIntosh and Silver String media, alongside her lack of professionalism when it comes to revealing her ties to this she advertises for. People still seem to rally behind her, but that's their move to be embarrassed about. She's been caught so many times that I'm surprised she's still a centerpiece in the feminist movement.

People you should listen to? John Bain and Sargon of Akaad. This whole thing is insane to begin with. The result of anti-GG was the dreaded Law and Order episode. That's really nothing to be proud of.

 The Airman wrote:
A few things here: (I am ready for your rage)

You are going to be so disappointed.

 The Airman wrote:
The result of anti-GG was the dreaded Law and Order episode.

You are funny .

 The Airman wrote:

Sommers is a feminist. Her opposition would claim otherwise because she's not party to their "third wave" feminism, but she is still a feminist. She has gained support from zee ebil gamerz by thoroughly trouncincing their detractors.

 The Airman wrote:
Anita isn't a gamer, nor is she a feminist. At most is call her a mouth piece for Johnathan McIntosh and Silver String media, alongside her lack of professionalism when it comes to revealing her ties to this she advertises for. People still seem to rally behind her, but that's their move to be embarrassed about. She's been caught so many times that I'm surprised she's still a centerpiece in the feminist movement.

Who made you the arbiter of who is a feminist?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's like letting my neighbour Klas represent the movie industry as a whole because he made a home movie.

You not noticing them doesn't mean they're obscure, it means you don't notice them. Which makes sense because cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias would make you disinclined to label someone who's on "your side" as "radical".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Nope. Applying your reasoning implies Idi Amin Dada is Scottish. As this is false, you should get the hint that your reasoning is invalid.

My reasoning is that Sommers is a feminist, as she considers herself an equity feminist, even coining the term. While I dislike Wikipedia, the page contains:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism

Equity feminism and gender feminism are two kinds of feminism

So calling her 'not a feminist' and trying to change the definition for what IS a feminist are pretty much why I think your reasoning is invalid. You don't agree with her, but that doesn't mean she isn't a feminist.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
My reasoning is that Sommers is a feminist, as she considers herself an equity feminist, even coining the term.

Yeah, and Idi Amin Dada consider himself a Scotsman. Even the last Scottish king, to be precise. Does that mean he is a Scotsman?

 The Airman wrote:
A few things here: (I am ready for your rage)

Sommers is a feminist. Her opposition would claim otherwise because she's not party to their "third wave" feminism, but she is still a feminist. She has gained support from zee ebil gamerz by thoroughly trouncincing their detractors.

Milo, I don't have any problems with. He actually gained a lot of brownie points by revealing the Game Jounos (sp?) Pro list, of which his opposition swiftly tried to denounce him on in spite of their blatant move of playing it down.

Anita isn't a gamer, nor is she a feminist. At most is call her a mouth piece for Johnathan McIntosh and Silver String media, alongside her lack of professionalism when it comes to revealing her ties to this she advertises for. People still seem to rally behind her, but that's their move to be embarrassed about. She's been caught so many times that I'm surprised she's still a centerpiece in the feminist movement.

People you should listen to? John Bain and Sargon of Akaad. This whole thing is insane to begin with. The result of anti-GG was the dreaded Law and Order episode. That's really nothing to be proud of.

you just leveled up, exalted. Although milo is still a little full of it, I must contend that the game journos thing was a damn good pull.

Camille Paglia

I have not read her (she's on the reading list, but I have a long reading list). Other things I've read have not been kind to her, but I'll wait till I actually get to her to make any conclusion.

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
it was pointed out she considered herself an equity feminist, you said that's not true feminism in your opinion, invoking nihilism for some reason.

Because it isn't. Her entire ideology of 'equality feminism' exists in a void created by a false dichotomy. She describes all other feminism as "gender feminism" and she refutes gender feminism in its entirety. I.E. She chooses to completely reject feminism, and then pretends to have a viable alternative. But once the professed alternative is examined and broken down, it's basically an empty ideology. It espouses nothing of value, aspires to no goals, and basically only exists to say "gender feminism is bad and should go away." It's a nothing philosophy that exists solely to reject another (hence, it is nihilistic).

She dresses it up and tries to pretend she's just a different kind of feminist, but we can freely examine her position and it becomes abundantly apparent she is not. She can call herself a feminist all she wants, but that just doesn't make any sense. Her entire philosophy is a denial of feminism while propping up a faux-feminism that is as shallow as it is transparent. I.E. Her claim to be a feminist is meaningless. Hence the joke.

How isn't that a No True Scotsman?

Because NTS isn't an argument that no one can ever be excluded from a label. It is a fallacy of being arbitrary ("determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle"). My argument against her is not "no feminist would ever criticize feminism" but that "someone who rejects feminism in its entirety can't reasonably be called a feminist."

So calling her 'not a feminist' and trying to change the definition for what IS a feminist are pretty much why I think your reasoning is invalid. You don't agree with her, but that doesn't mean she isn't a feminist.

The irony being lost on you is that the dichotomy of "equality feminism and gender feminism" is one wholly of Sommers' making and it is a dichotomy of Sommers on one side and all modern Feminism on the other. It is in fact, Sommers, who wants to change the definition of what is a feminist, not Hybrid or I. EDIT: And honestly I don't have an issue with that per se. I think Feminism needs to change desperately because if Sommers is right about anything, it's that modern Feminism is too caught up in it's own academic gymnastics to be valuable. It is imo too distant from practicality to be of use as anything more than an academic device. My issue with Sommers however is that she offers no reasoned or cohesive alternative to "gender feminism" and gives no idea of what or how it should change to be relevant. She just wants to throw everything out the window and leave the loft unfurnished.

The result of anti-GG was the dreaded Law and Order episode

Seriously, why are people so butt hurt over that? It really wasn't a good episode, even by the admittedly low standards of L&O (it's okay L&O I still love you. Your mediocrity is part of your charm).

Mainly because L&W's audience isn't privy to what's going on right now in gaming. With all the media coverage about this, it's no surprise that this happened.

Misinformation is rampant, and I've met plenty of folks who think we, the consumers, are the bad guys. That's really the result of the aforementioned media coverage. I also deal with people who think men are evil and whites are the devil so I'm not convinced by their rhetoric.

That's my two cents on this. You're free to disagree -- you know what they say about opinions.

To be fair, whites are the devil though.

 The Airman wrote:
Misinformation is rampant, and I've met plenty of folks who think we, the consumers, are the bad guys.

I do not think it is linked to misinformation, and I do not think “the consumers” is the right word to accurately represent GamerGaters .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 The Airman wrote:
Misinformation is rampant, and I've met plenty of folks who think we, the consumers, are the bad guys.

I do not think it is linked to misinformation, and I do not think “the consumers” is the right word to accurately represent GamerGaters .

Oh really? Pretty sure they are consumers.

This just in:
Common Core is pushing lesson plans about sexism in video games, full of propaganda, teaching that video games and the cultures they've helped create are inherently misogynistic.
This is a pretty strong blow against gamers.

The L&O episode is a result of the anti GG narrative drawn by the media. If there's another explanation I'd like to hear it.

And what would you call "Gamergaters"?

What the hell is common core?

 Soladrin wrote:
What the hell is common core?

I think Wizards of the Coast releases a new one every year.

Oh, it's murican education stuff. I don't care anymore.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
What the hell is common core?

I think Wizards of the Coast releases a new one every year.

Heh...

I lol'ed.

I'm gunna steal that one.

I still don't fething know what's really gamergate is really about. So... I'm trying to stay out.

 whembly wrote:

I still don't fething know what's really gamergate is really about. So... I'm trying to stay out.

It's like a black hole Whembly. Once you're in there's no escape.

 LordofHats wrote:

 whembly wrote:

I still don't fething know what's really gamergate is really about. So... I'm trying to stay out.

It's like a black hole Whembly. Once you're in there's no escape.

Eh, it's pretty easy to stay on the fringes. I read/listen to occasional stuff about it, I have stopped consuming certain sites/individuals stuff because of it, but I have never actively entered the arena because I like being semi-sane.

Your dancing on the event horizon man XD

 LordofHats wrote:
Your dancing on the event horizon man XD

I like that movie.

 Soladrin wrote:
Oh really? Pretty sure they are consumers.

Yeah, and their sworn opponents are too .
All GGers are humans too. But saying “Misinformation is rampant, and I've met plenty of folks who think we, humans, are the bad guys.” would still not work.

 The Airman wrote:
The L&O episode is a result of the anti GG narrative drawn by the media. If there's another explanation I'd like to hear it.

The L&O episode is a result of GG people showing the media how terrible they can be. Does that work as another explanation ?

Off topic, ranting, insulting, Rule #1 not even an afterthought.

I'm kind of surprised it made it this far though...