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HQ :
DKCCS, Quartermaster Revenant

Elites:
Hydra Flak tank, Rapier Laser Destroyer, Griffon Strike Battery

Troops:
Death Korps Infantry Platoon, Death Korps Grenadier Storm Squad

Fast Attack:
Hellhound Squadron, Death Rider Platoon, Salamander Reconnaissance Squadron

Heavy Support:
Death Korps Leman Russ Squadron, Death Korps Ordnance Tank Battery, Death Korps Heavy Weapons Platoon

Dedicated transports:
Storm Chimera, Centaur Carrier

Special characters:
Death Korps Marshal Karis Venner

It's pretty easy to choose when you have average around 3 different choices per slot...

Bharring wrote:
This thread makes me sad.

It’s an interesting thought experiment, but unlikely to ever happen. Another way to phrase the question would be “What are the three most iconic, can’t live without, units in every FOC slot” I know there is a lot of stuff I’d be quite sad/angry to see go if it did get cut. But I’m also not going to claim that things like scout bikers really needed to exist, even though I enjoy fielding them from time to time and like the models.

Units like centurions ruffle my feathers a bit. They were grafted into the fluff, and frankly don’t fill a role that couldn’t be done with terminators with better rules. But GW wanted another kit to sell, so we get another unit in the codex. In a similar vein, the TFC outshines the venerable whirlwind. They both fill the same battlefield role (thinning out hordes) but the new shiny unit is just better. If I was trimming stuff out of the book to make it more lean and competitive, the WW would get the axe, it’s fairly redundant these days. If I was cutting to adhere closer to the classic fluff, the TFC doesn’t really need to exist.

 Nevelon wrote:

Bharring wrote:
This thread makes me sad.

It’s an interesting thought experiment, but unlikely to ever happen. Another way to phrase the question would be “What are the three most iconic, can’t live without, units in every FOC slot” I know there is a lot of stuff I’d be quite sad/angry to see go if it did get cut. But I’m also not going to claim that things like scout bikers really needed to exist, even though I enjoy fielding them from time to time and like the models.

Units like centurions ruffle my feathers a bit. They were grafted into the fluff, and frankly don’t fill a role that couldn’t be done with terminators with better rules. But GW wanted another kit to sell, so we get another unit in the codex. In a similar vein, the TFC outshines the venerable whirlwind. They both fill the same battlefield role (thinning out hordes) but the new shiny unit is just better. If I was trimming stuff out of the book to make it more lean and competitive, the WW would get the axe, it’s fairly redundant these days. If I was cutting to adhere closer to the classic fluff, the TFC doesn’t really need to exist.

This is the whole point of the thread. What do people really feel is important in their armies. The game as it stands is too bloated with special rules and units that only show up once in a blue moon. All of which leads to wasted time in the beginning of the game just explaining what everything does, just because it has a unique name and a wargear swap. In my opinion, anything that helps get to the throwing of dice and moving of models faster is better.

But what is even more interesting is seeing what units are repeatedly showing up from different posters. If this thread continues I think we can get a fairly good picture of what people actually want to see in the armies.

Hmmm...this does look fun! Let me have a shot at it...


Imperial Guard

HQ: Company Command Squad, Commissar, Primaris Psyker

Troops: Infantry Platoon, Veterans

Elites: Ogryn, Ratlings, Storm Trooper Platoon

Fast Attack: Scout Sentinels, Hellhounds, Valkyries

Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank, Hydra Batteries, Basilisk Batteries

Dedicated Transports: Chimera, Taurox Prime

Special Characters: Commissar Yarrick, Nork Deddog, Knight Commander Pask, Sergeant Harker


This was a little tougher than I thought; I wanted to preserve as much of the Guard's variety as possible, making things like armored companies available...but at the same time, they've put Commissars in the HQ slot instead of as upgrades for command squads, so I couldn't just cut the Lord Commissar in favor of the Tank Commander. And IG should have some kind of psyker access...mechanized regiments would just have to take Pask or stick their leader in a transport, just like their troops. And, of course, Enginseers and Priests were right out. The other HQs are just too iconic.

I tried to get a good spread of special characters, too. Creed didn't show up because it felt putting him in without the Color Sergeant, and I didn't want to give half of the allotment to Cadia. Again, it's all about variety. Taurox Primes only made it in because of the second dedicated transport choice; honestly, I'd prefer cutting them in favor of Valkyries so airborne regiments and proper Storm Trooper/Scion transports could be a thing. That would have left a slot free for the Rough Riders to return...

...but that would be breaking the rules!

I think GK already meets the criteria, if you count all the land raider variants as one.

HQ: Librarian, Brother-captain, Brotherhood champion
Troops: Strike squads, Terminators
Elites: Dreadnought, Purifiers, Paladins
Fast Attack: Interceptors, Stormravens
Heavy Support: Dreadknight, Purgation Squad, Landraider
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, Razorback
SC: Draigo, Brother-captain Stern, Castellan Crowe

The only things left out are the land raider crusader/redeemer, and techmarines (which don't use up a FOC slot anyway).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

Nope. I have Scions for BS4 special weaponing and Infantry Squads for Trooping. Veterans add nothing to the army just special weapon spam in the Troops section (essentially: cheese), so I say good riddance.

And those Stormtrooper squads are paying twice the points for 2/3rds the value...

I know, I love the concept of the Stormtrooper, and own tons of Kasrkin, DKoK Grenadiers and older metal Stormtroopers. I run a DKoK Assault Brigade with them as Troops. Veterans are drastically more effective.

Hmmmm

Vanilla Marines:
HQ: Captain(options to upgrade to CM), Lib, Chap
TR: Tactical, Scouts
EL: Stern, Van, Terminator
FA: Bikes, A marines, Speeders
HS: LR variants, Techmarines (can buy into TFC), Vindicator

Kinda hard to fit all da SM

MarsNZ wrote:
My take on CSM

HQ: Lord, Exalted Champion, Apostle
Elite: Chosen, Possessed
Troop: CSM, Cultist
Fast: Bikes, Spawn, Drake
Heavy: Oblits, Havocs, Defiler
Transport: Rhino, Land Raider, Dreadclaw

My ideal codex for CSM would have fewer units with more customisation. For eg; Chosen would have the option for terminator armour, and terminators would be removed altogether. Basic CSM/Chosen would have upgrades available to make them cult troops, or take jump packs. Lord/Hero level characters could optionally become sorcerors. Deliberately left DP out as I don't think they really fit with CSM. They ascend and leave mortal concerns behind.

Good point with the Daemon Prince, Apostle works fluff wise. I forgot about possessed, they'd be a good unit to retain for my version, but then I'd have to drop something else... Of course, that's thematically good to retain, rules wise they might want changing...

I think the recurring thread here is that upgrade paths would be generally considered a good idea, and might help turn some less than stellar options into interesting choices.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

Nope. I have Scions for BS4 special weaponing and Infantry Squads for Trooping. Veterans add nothing to the army just special weapon spam in the Troops section (essentially: cheese), so I say good riddance.

And those Stormtrooper squads are paying twice the points for 2/3rds the value...

I know, I love the concept of the Stormtrooper, and own tons of Kasrkin, DKoK Grenadiers and older metal Stormtroopers. I run a DKoK Assault Brigade with them as Troops. Veterans are drastically more effective.

That just increases their cheese factor but won't make them a distinct unit choice. Yeah, Scions are pretty bad, but they are at least vastly different from the other units.

HQ: The Nightbringer, The Deceiver, Necron Lord
Elite: Pariahs
Troops: Necron Warriors
Fast Attack: Necron Wraiths, Scarab Swarms, Destroyers
Heavy Support: Monolith, Heavy Destroyers

 Sigvatr wrote:
HQ: The Nightbringer, The Deceiver, Necron Lord
Elite: Pariahs
Troops: Necron Warriors
Fast Attack: Necron Wraiths, Scarab Swarms, Destroyers
Heavy Support: Monolith, Heavy Destroyers

Out of date much?

Nah, Sigvatr just refuses to admit that anything exists past the third edition codex to the point where he gets really confused if you talk about anything 'newcron'.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

Nope. I have Scions for BS4 special weaponing and Infantry Squads for Trooping. Veterans add nothing to the army just special weapon spam in the Troops section (essentially: cheese), so I say good riddance.

And those Stormtrooper squads are paying twice the points for 2/3rds the value...

I know, I love the concept of the Stormtrooper, and own tons of Kasrkin, DKoK Grenadiers and older metal Stormtroopers. I run a DKoK Assault Brigade with them as Troops. Veterans are drastically more effective.

That just increases their cheese factor but won't make them a distinct unit choice. Yeah, Scions are pretty bad, but they are at least vastly different from the other units.

I'd like to see Veterans have more emphasis on their doctrines, honestly. Establish the Glory Boys as the ones who have lots of big guns and let the Veterans have cheap access to things like Infiltrate or special equipment...seems more in keeping with their background to me.

 Spinner wrote:

I'd like to see Veterans have more emphasis on their doctrines, honestly. Establish the Glory Boys as the ones who have lots of big guns and let the Veterans have cheap access to things like Infiltrate or special equipment...seems more in keeping with their background to me.

i want all of this.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, Sigvatr just refuses to admit that anything exists past the third edition codex

Not true. I well acknowledge the two latest counterfeit Necron codices...but they're counterfeit nontheless.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, Sigvatr just refuses to admit that anything exists past the third edition codex

Not true. I well acknowledge the two latest counterfeit Necron codices...but they're counterfeit nontheless.

I kinda feel the same way about Orks. I really haven't liked any of their codexs since 3rd edition and speed freeks in Codex: Armeggeddon.

 Spinner wrote:

I'd like to see Veterans have more emphasis on their doctrines, honestly. Establish the Glory Boys as the ones who have lots of big guns and let the Veterans have cheap access to things like Infiltrate or special equipment...seems more in keeping with their background to me.

Nah, Infantry Platoons should have the option to diversify with special rules/equipment (including upgrades that would turn them into Veterans, so +1 BS and +2 special weapons).

Wouldn't that be going back to the thing you didn't like, though? You've got special weapons spam on troops, they're just integrated into infantry platoons now. Which is fine if you want Guard armies to be built around Platoons, that sort of makes sense, but it's a different argument.

I wouldn't mind basic infantry having the option to get deep strike or camo cloaks or stuff like that, though...

For the love of all that is holy my response is a resounding NOOOOOOO. Taking away units just makes a codex that much blander. I want to be able to have a wide array of unit's to choose from

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
For the love of all that is holy my response is a resounding NOOOOOOO. Taking away units just makes a codex that much blander. I want to be able to have a wide array of unit's to choose from

But, that only works if it's a proper choice.

e.g. Hellions are basically just inferior Reavers. That's not a choice.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

To be fair, I love vets, but they have a lot to do with the power creep in infantry firepower; they've got mroe plasma/melta than Space Marines could dream of on a platform cheaper than a naked tactical squad. Their older incarnation, as part of a platoon and with either shotguns or lasguns and a special rule or two was probably more fluff-honest and less balance skewing. Such a change in the current environment would doom guard to obscurity, but as part of a wider re-balancing? I'd be down with it.

I don't recall veteran squads ever being part of a platoon. Before they got moved to troops they were a 0-1 Elites choice. The change certainly did warp how IG is commonly played. The infantry platoon used to be mandatory and I think it's one of the army's most distinguishing features. Still I'm sure lots of players appreciate not having to deal with them.

So, IG
HQ:
Command platoon, Lord Commissar, Primaris psyker
Elite:
Stormtroopers. I guess ratlings and ogryn might as well stay too. Elites haven't exactly been this army's strong suit historically.
Troops:
Infantry platoon. Conscript platoon (it used to be a separate troops choice). Vet squad - barring major overhaul I feel reverting veterans-as-troops would do more harm than good.
Fast Attack
I feel scout sentinels, valkyries, and hellhounds can't be left behind so I guess rough riders have to get the boot.
Heavy Support:
A highly competitive slot for this army. We can't lose the tank squadron and the ordnance battery isn't far behind. For the last option I nominate an artillery type unit that has never existed in codex because if anyone uses artillery it should be us.

Dedicated transport: The codex only has one dedicated transport in the first place. Actually three now that we have the Taurox and Prime. Keep the Chimera of course and I guess the Taurox Prime too.

Special Characters:
Commissar Yarrick, Guardsman Marbo, Knight Commander Pask, Creed.

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
For the love of all that is holy my response is a resounding NOOOOOOO. Taking away units just makes a codex that much blander. I want to be able to have a wide array of unit's to choose from

Look at the Elite's section of the IG/AM codex both 5th and 6th edition.
Lot's of units to choose from, not a single good one. More units does not make a codex more fun or interesting. A high ratio of usable units to bad ones is ideal and eliminating dumb units is the best way to do that (though GW wouldn't do it themselves).

Yeah, the whole point of this exercise is to distill the essence of your codex of choice down to the barest essentials while still keeping the unique playstyle of that army.

To that extent, I think Vaktathi nailed the IG.

I would kill for some of the lighter arty/Hydras to be moved to elites.

Dark Eldar

HQ -
Succubus, Archon, Haemonculus

Elite-
Grots, Trueborn, Wracks

Troops-
Kablite Warriors, Wyches

Fast Attack -
Reavers, Beastpacks, Scourges

Heavy Support -
Void Raven, Talos, Ravager

Dedicated Transports -
Raider, Venom

SCs -
Lilith, Uren, Drazhar

This was a little difficult because you want to keep the feel of all three aspecs, but some cuts had to be made. It also saddens me even more so when I got to the special character list and there were no choices to be made, as there are now only three so they all fit.

Tau

HQ -
Commander, Ethereal

Elite-
Riptide, Stealth Team, Crisis Team

Troops-
FireWarriors
Kroot

Fast Attack -
Pathfinders
Sunshark Bomber
Piranha

Heavy Support -
Hammerhead
SkyRay
Broadside Team

Dedicated Transports -
Devilfish

SCs -
Farsight, Shadowsun, Aun'Va