Trimming the fat - Codex downsizing

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**Jayden63**

So the recent terminator thread has got me thinking how there are just a lot of traditional units that have lost their place because of the new toys that have been introduced over the last 3-5 editions. So in an attempt to see what other peoples thoughts are on some units and for a fun mental exersise, how would you trim the fat from your favorite armies.

The rules: You may only have 3 different units in each of the traditional slots of HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. You may however include 4 special characters. YouMy may only have two units that can be classified as dedicated transports (thus not taking a slot). You may not move units to different areas than they are right now in their current codex. There is no changing of units in anyway, its just how they are currently printed. If there are several types of units inside each unit for example Landraider, landraider crusader, landraider redeemer, you cannot just lump them all together. You must pick each separate unit you wish to include. Thus trimming the fat.

My example -

Space Wolves -

HQ - Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, Wolf Priest
Elite - Wolf Guard Terminators, Wolf Scouts, Axe and Shield Dreadnaught
Troop - Bloodclaws, Grey Hunters
Fast Attack - Thunderwolf Cavalry, Landspeeders, Swift Claws
Heavy Support - Landraider crusader, Stormfang, Long Fangs
Dedicated Transports - Rhino, Drop Pods
Special Characters - Ragnar, Bjorn, Logan, Arjac

There are a lot of missing units, stuff that gets overlooked because its rolls/abilites are easily covered by other units. I think it also is a way of bringing an army back into focus. Not every army should be able to do everything, choices should have to be made.

So, what does your army codex look like?

**Vaktathi**

I'll try it here with a twist, I think there's some units that should occupy a different FoC slot from what they occupy now.

HQ:
CCS, Commissar, Primaris Psyker

Elites:
Hydra, "Light" artillery tank (either the Griffon or the Wyvern), Scions/Stromtroopers.

Troops:
Infantry Platoons, Hardened Veterans

Fast Attack
Hellhounds, Sentinels (just make Armored Sentinels and upgrade option), Valkyries

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ tanks (are we counting them all as one or each variant as its own?), Basilisk, Manticore.

Dedicated Transport: Chimera.

Special Characters: Yarrick, Straken, Creed & Kell (I'm counting them as one, since one's a bodyguard for the other), Pask. .

**Squidmanlolz**

Tyranids:

HQ- Hive Tyrant, Tervigon, Tyranid Prime
Elite- Zoanthrope Brood, Venomthrope Brood, Genestealer Brood
Troop- Tyranid Warrior Brood, Termagant Brood, Hormagaunt Brood
Fast Attack- Harpy, Hive Crone, Ravener Brood
Heavy Support- Carnifex Brood, Trygon Prime, Exocrine
Dedicated Transport- The new Meicetic spore whose name escapes me...
Special Characters- The Swarmlord, Old One Eye, The Red Terror

Kinda hard to get nids to fit this format as they have one of the largest and best Elites section and arguably the worst selection of special characters. However, I don't think that this format would ruin the tyranid codex.

**cincydooley**

How you gonna pick Arjac over Njal???

**Jayden63**

cincydooley wrote:
How you gonna pick Arjac over Njal???

Njal used to be awesome, now he is little more than a slightly beefed up rune priest. Thus redundent and no longer useful. Arjac is a cheap beat stick who can be your budget heavy hitter. You have to make the cuts, some cuts are easier to make than others.

**TheCustomLime**

Elfdar:

HQ: Farseer, Spiritseer, Autarch
Special Characters: The Pheonix Lords
Troops:
Dire Avengers, Windrider Jetbike Squadrons
Elites:
Wraithguard, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons
Fast Attack:
Crimson Hunter, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks
Heavy Support:
Wraithknight
Dedicated Transport:
Wave Serpent

**koooaei**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Elfdar:

HQ:
Wave Serpent
Special Characters:
Wave Serpent
Troops:
Wave Serpent
Elites:
Wave Serpent
Fast Attack:
Wave Serpent
Heavy Support:
Wave Serpent
Dedicated Transport:
Wave Serpent

**AnomanderRake**

You missed the character Wave Serpent. He's BS5, BS2 after jinking, and can elect to not shoot and move as a Flyer for a turn.

**koooaei**

AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed the character Wave Serpent. He's BS5, BS2 after jinking, and can elect to not shoot and move as a Flyer for a turn.

Wave Serpent +1 (FW)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a more serious note, i don't even know what to take away from orks. Maybe just elite nobz, burnas and fast attack trukks are excessive.

**Makumba**

koooaei wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
Elfdar:

HQ:
Farseer Wave Serpent

fixed that one. Saw a seer wave serpent model in Epic last week.

**TheCustomLime**

Revised Elfdar List:

HQ:
Elites:
Troops:
5x man Dire Avenger Squads
Fast Attack:
Heavy support:
Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpents

Codex: Orkz

HQ:
Warboss
Big Mek

Elites:
Flash Gitz
Burna Boyz
Tank Bustaz

Troops:
Boyz
Warbikers

Fast Attack:
Stormboyz
Dakkajet

Heavy support:
Battle Wagon

**Melevolence**

koooaei wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed the character Wave Serpent. He's BS5, BS2 after jinking, and can elect to not shoot and move as a Flyer for a turn.

Wave Serpent +1 (FW)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a more serious note, i don't even know what to take away from orks. Maybe just elite nobz, burnas and fast attack trukks are excessive.

If I were to trim the dex, I'd shift Nobz into the Troops slot instead of Elite, as they aren't really 'elite' enough to sit there. Since we get to keep dedicated transport slots for this exercise, just put the Trukks there and not in Fast Attack, along with Battle Wagons to free up a Heavy Support slot.

I guess I'd do:

HQ: Warboss, Big Mek, Painboy
Troops: Boyz, Nobz (Make them cheaper but also more versatile with new upgrades), Gretchen (Fixing them up with some upgrades to give them more than a tax role/backfield holders...put their coveted BS3 to some fricken use)
Elite: Manz, Flash Gitz (With proper upgrade options), Killa Kanz (Fixing them)
Heavy Support: Mek Gunz, Deff Dreads(Fixing them), and Lootas
Fast Attack: Warbikes, Deffkopters, Ork Plane (Instead make a 'build a plane' option with proper costs for everything)
Dedicated Transports: Trukk, Battlewagon
Special Characters: Zogwart (Returned and fixed), Wazdakka (Return and fix), Ghazgkull (Fix give proper buffs to Boyz/Noz/Mega Nobz, like a true leader), and Kaptain Badrukk (Make him actually good and give buffs to Gitz)

**BrianDavion**

Space Marines (I'm focusing on keeping as much to iconic units as effective ones)

HQ:
Captain, Chaplan, Librarian (make chapter master a upgrade to the captain)
Troops: Tatical Marines, Scouts,
Fast Attack: Assault Squad (vanguard Vets are an upgrade), Land Speeder, Bike Squad
Heavy Support: Predator, Demolisher, Stormraven
Elites: Terminators (remove the assault terminator and allow mixed squads) Dreadnought (make all dread varianets upgrades of the dreadnought), Sternguard Veterns
Dedicated Transports: Rhinos (make the Razorback an upgrade maybe?), Drop pods, Land Raiders (make the differnt varients of land raiders all differing upgrades thus allowing a lascanon/assault canon land raider or what have you)

**Furyou Miko**

Sisters of Battle:

HQ: Canoness, Missionary, Jacobus, Celestine
[b]Elites: Celestians, Repentia
Troops: Battle Sisters
Fast Attack: Dominions, Seraphim, Aquilas
Heavy Support: Avengers, Retributors, Exorcists
Dedicated Transports: Rhino, Immolator, Repressor

[b]Dropped units: Arvus, Penitent Engine.

:p Actually, I was surprised...

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

I'll bite...

Chaos
HQ: Chaos Lord, Sorceror, Dameon Prince.
Elite: Chosen, Terminators, Helbrute.
Troops: Chaos Marines, Cultists, Cult Marines.
Fast Attack: Bikers, Raptors, Spawn.
Heavy Support: Obliterators, Havocs, Defiler.
Dedicated Transport: Rhino, Dreadclaw.
Special Characters: Meh, don't care.

This was tricky. I wanted to find a way to keep my precious Noisemarines, so I cheated a little on the troops. I realised I was leaving out the Heldrake, but I think the Spawn are more iconic of the pitfalls of chaos so I thought that was the more characterful choice there. But in heavy support, I ended up leaving out all the tanks, and not even keeping one of the daemon engines (which I may not be sold on, but at least they represent a forking of technology in these warp).
Also, snuck in there Dreadclaw for DT. Just because.

**niv-mizzet**

BA

Hq: priest, Libby, captain
Elite: death co. Sanguinary guard, furioso dreads
Troop: scout/taxicals
Fast: assault marines, razorbacks, rhinos
Heavy: predator, storm raven, devastators
DT: drop pod, land raider crusader. (That bit of fluff about BA having more land raiders is STILL there, even though they removed any mechanical benefit of it.)

Characters: Dante, Astorath, Mephy, corbulo.

**MajorStoffer**

SPHESS MEHRINES

HQ:

Captain (with CM Upgrade) Librarian, Chaplain

Troops:

Space Marines (Upgradeable through wargear to ASM or Devastators), Scouts

Fast:

Bikes, Land Speeder

Elites:

Veterans (Sternguard by default, upgrades to represent Vanguard), Terminators (mixed) Dreadnoughts

Heavy:

Whirlwind, Predator, Vindicator

Ded. Transport:

Rhino, Drop Pod, Land Raider (combined entry)

Cut: Centurions, Thunderfire, Ironclad dreadnought, Master of the Forge, Legion of the Damned, Storm Potato, Hunter, Stalker, Stormraven

The thing with Marines is they suffer a lot from "same unit with different wargear" as wholly seperate units where mutually exclusive upgrade tracks, where relevant, would work just as well (and in this case, give Marines a not-garbage troop selection).

**niv-mizzet**

@brian: he said you can't change the units. No offering upgrades that don't already exist, and no lumping stuff together.

**Bobthehero**

HQ
CCS, Quartermaster, General-Commissar

Elite
Grenadiers, Krieg field artillery battery, Rapier laser battery

Troops
Platoon, Krieg style, Engineers

Fast Attack
Hellhound and friends, Death Riders, Cyclops demo squad.

Heavy Support
Krieg heavy artillery carriage, Bombard, Krieg heavy wpn platoon

Dedicated transports
Centaur, Hades Drills, GORGON ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT

Special characters
What are those, lol, so I am strapping a third dedicated transport

No leman russes? Nah, tanks are for people who want mobility.

All in all, I lose the LR, the flyers and the AA. 2 Heavy support and an Elite slot.

**koooaei**

Canonical ork units:

LoW: Ghazzy
Special Characters: Grotsnik
HQ: Warboss, Mek, Wierdboy
Troops: Boyz, Grots
Elites: Nobz, Meganobz, Kommandoes
Fast Attack: Koptas, Warbuggies, Bikers, Stormboyz
Heavy Support: Lootas, Mek guns, Deff Dread, Killa kans, Battlewagon
Dedicated Transport: Truck, Looted Wagon

**BrianDavion**

niv-mizzet wrote:
@brian: he said you can't change the units. No offering upgrades that don't already exist, and no lumping stuff together.

yeah you got me I went all black templar on his rules

**MarsNZ**

My take on CSM

HQ: Lord, Exalted Champion, Apostle
Elite: Chosen, Possessed
Troop: CSM, Cultist
Fast: Bikes, Spawn, Drake
Heavy: Oblits, Havocs, Defiler
Transport: Rhino, Land Raider, Dreadclaw

My ideal codex for CSM would have fewer units with more customisation. For eg; Chosen would have the option for terminator armour, and terminators would be removed altogether. Basic CSM/Chosen would have upgrades available to make them cult troops, or take jump packs. Lord/Hero level characters could optionally become sorcerors. Deliberately left DP out as I don't think they really fit with CSM. They ascend and leave mortal concerns behind.

**vipoid**

I have changed one unit in the FoC:

HQ: Archon, Succubus, Haemonculus
SCs: Urien, Drazhar, Lelith. [Since I only have 3 SCs, can I put the Court of the Archon here?

]
Troops: Warriors, Wyches, Wracks. [I moved Wracks so that Kabal, Wyches and Coven are all represented in troops. Also, Wracks are not elite material.]
Elites: Grotesques, Incubi, Trueborn [I should probably replace either the Incubi or Trueborn with Bloodbrides, to maintain the one-of-each representation, but I just can't bring myself to replace a functional unit with a useless one.]
Fast Attack: Razorwing, Scourges, Reavers
Heavy Support: Ravager, Talos, Cronos [I think removing either the Talos or Cronos would hurt Coven, far more than removing the overpriced Voidraven hurts the book.]
Dedicated Transports: Raider, Venom

**AtoMaki**

IG/AM Mega Trim:

HQ: CCS, Commissar
Elites: Tempestus Scion Platoon
Troops: Infantry Platoon
Dedicated Transport: Chimera
Fast Attack: Hellhound Squadron, Sentinel Squadron
Heavy Support: Leman Russ MBT Squadron, Basilisk Squadron, Hydra Squadron

...and nothing of value is lost. If you want a "Classic" trim, then include Ogryns, Ratlings and Rough Riders too.

**vipoid**

You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

**MajorStoffer**

vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

To be fair, I love vets, but they have a lot to do with the power creep in infantry firepower; they've got mroe plasma/melta than Space Marines could dream of on a platform cheaper than a naked tactical squad. Their older incarnation, as part of a platoon and with either shotguns or lasguns and a special rule or two was probably more fluff-honest and less balance skewing. Such a change in the current environment would doom guard to obscurity, but as part of a wider re-balancing? I'd be down with it.

**AtoMaki**

vipoid wrote:
You don't consider Veterans to be of any value?

Nope. I have Scions for BS4 special weaponing and Infantry Squads for Trooping. Veterans add nothing to the army just special weapon spam in the Troops section (essentially: cheese), so I say good riddance.

**Rismonite**

HQ; Warboss, Painboy, Big Mek
Troopz; Boyz, Grots
Elites, Meganobz, Tankbustas, Kommandos
Fast Attack: Biker Boyz, Stormboyz, Buggies
HS; Battlewagonz, Kanz, Lootas
DT; Trucks
LoW; Stompa
I'd almost throw out Wagonz for Flash gitz. Mek gunz are good and should probably be in there but feth them.

**Nevelon**

HQ: Commander, Chaplain, Librarian
Elite: Veterans, Terminators, Dreads
Troops: Tacticals, Scouts
FA: Bikes, Assault squads, Land Speeders
HS: Devastators, LRs, Preds
DT: Rhino, Razor, Drop Pod
SC: Calgar, Cassius, Tigurius, Sicarius

Other chapters can get supplements/dataslates for their special characters, if we are trimming, this is turning back into Codex:Ultramarines

The hard parts to trim were mostly the HS slot. I’d like to include the vindicator and the whirlwind. Adding the LSS to the dedicated transport section would have been nice as well.

**Bharring**

This thread makes me sad.