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This is the first time I've ever had to do this before and it makes me sad...

There I was at my flgs on our typical 40k night. A fairly new player was there looking for a game. I agreed, he had been playing for about a month, I didn't expect him to have all the rules memorized or anything but it turned into the most frustrating game.

the first argument started when he told me I wasn't allowed to seize the initiative... and that is how the game began. so many times after that he challenged me on the rules of.. everything. Saying I was doing everything wrong, or not believing me when I say my army can do something (I rarely need to look up my army anymore).

Somewhere about 1.5 hours later in the bottom for the second turn we begin to argue about something else and he starts raising his voice at me. So I politely told him the game was over, I am not enjoying arguing though every move of the game, and packed up my army.

In the end, he was wrong about everything we looked up.

Just left the flgs feeling like crap. Anyone else ever had a game like this? I Feel bad, don't want a new player starting 40k with a bad experience, but also don't want to support his behavior.

You're not alone, really. Everyone has these games, just last month I had some rough games, you need to just let it go. You'll always run into arguments over the rules, whether you're playing against new or old players. If an opponent thinks you're doing something that will benefit your army, and he's desperate to win, he'll always question it.

Trust me when I say you're better off just forgetting about it. Just last month I had a guy quit on me turn one because I used either infiltrate or deep strike on 3/4 of my army and he told me he wouldn't play me if I used those rules, he forfeit turn 1.

At first I was upset, but then I realized it was just that he wanted to win. Don't play guys if they aren't looking to have fun. If anything, tell the kid you'll only play him again if he reads up on his rules and stops questioning things constantly.... if he doesn't understand something you say, offer an explanation, but if he gets challenging about it all he's not worth playing again.

 Smotejob wrote:
So I politely told him the game was over, I am not enjoying arguing though every move of the game, and packed up my army.

You did right think. Playing 40K should be fun and enjoyable, not arguing. This is a first rule which should be learned.

What happened afterwards?

Sounds like a prime example of 'that guy'.

I ran into him last week. I was playing CSM and I had 3 gifts of mutation + a warlord trait that let me re-roll chaos boons.

My warlord (chaos juggerlord w/ axe of blind fury) ends up rolling 64, which lets me roll an additional 3D+1 times. I end up with 3 rolls which give me fleshbane, Instant death and +1 I. This is like dream rolls come true and I'm just laughing out loud because lets face it this is probably the first time since the release of the CSM codex that anyone rollled anything useful on the chaos boon table.

My opponent just goes: "Well, I quit, you win. let's start over."
So basicly he just asked me: "Hey, I see you rolled good, want to re-roll those because I don't like it when you roll good?"

I told him to play the game that was set up or leave, and he left.

DaPino wrote:
Sounds like a prime example of 'that guy'.

I ran into him last week. I was playing CSM and I had 3 gifts of mutation + a warlord trait that let me re-roll chaos boons.

My warlord (chaos juggerlord w/ axe of blind fury) ends up rolling 64, which lets me roll an additional 3D+1 times. I end up with 3 rolls which give me fleshbane, Instant death and +1 I. This is like dream rolls come true and I'm just laughing out loud because lets face it this is probably the first time since the release of the CSM codex that anyone rollled anything useful on the chaos boon table.

My opponent just goes: "Well, I quit, you win. let's start over."
So basicly he just asked me: "Hey, I see you rolled good, want to re-roll those because I don't like it when you roll good?"

I told him to play the game that was set up or leave, and he left.

..... I don't even understand these people. It can't be about only winning because he quit that game turn one (that's a loss) to start another one. Ah, I don't get it but I really feel you; I couldn't play with these toxic opponents.

 Smotejob wrote:

...
Somewhere about 1.5 hours later in the bottom for the second turn we begin to argue about something else and he starts raising his voice at me. So I politely told him the game was over, I am not enjoying arguing though every move of the game, and packed up my army.
...

Spot on chap. Got a crap opponent? Quit game! The more people that avoid them, the more they'll either leave or change their attitude. For me, no gaming is better than bad gaming and it sounds like you realise that. Your melancholy is down to having to battle it out over rules and minutiae and I wouldn't worry about it.

It's pointless soldiering on in situations like that. Far too often, in horror story threads, you read about people who are clearly not enjoying the game but are carrying on like masochists. In tournaments I can understand that you have to go on, but in clubs and local stores, why? If you've got an arse of a player, quit and don't play them again. Also, I've seen some people fall into one of the geek social fallacies trap - don't excuse bad behaviour because you feel like your in some sort of overarching "community" - blergh!

As an aside, we really need a new horror stories thread. Not had a decent one in a while...

Sometimes you just have to walk away.
It's a hobby, something to be enjoyed.

The crime here is the OP was made to feel bad. Walking away was the right thing to do.

Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent. This is where I prefer to run 2v2 games. (In fact I always prefer 2v2 games.) Someone learning is much more apt to believe what you are telling them if you are on their team. Also, it's a good way of showing proper tactics and turn phases. Lets face it, it takes a few games being guided through to have ANY idea of whats going on in a 40k game in 7th.

 Otto Weston wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Sounds like a prime example of 'that guy'.

I ran into him last week. I was playing CSM and I had 3 gifts of mutation + a warlord trait that let me re-roll chaos boons.

My warlord (chaos juggerlord w/ axe of blind fury) ends up rolling 64, which lets me roll an additional 3D+1 times. I end up with 3 rolls which give me fleshbane, Instant death and +1 I. This is like dream rolls come true and I'm just laughing out loud because lets face it this is probably the first time since the release of the CSM codex that anyone rollled anything useful on the chaos boon table.

My opponent just goes: "Well, I quit, you win. let's start over."
So basicly he just asked me: "Hey, I see you rolled good, want to re-roll those because I don't like it when you roll good?"

I told him to play the game that was set up or leave, and he left.

..... I don't even understand these people. It can't be about only winning because he quit that game turn one (that's a loss) to start another one. Ah, I don't get it but I really feel you; I couldn't play with these toxic opponents.

Was he playing Tau or Grey Knights or something? Because I'd want to test myself against a champion with that sort of crazy set-up!

Quiting or not. I have found out that it is more or less impossible to have a normal game of w40k right as it was in 5th or 6th. Different groups use different houser ules and there is so much to house rule that games outside of closest group of people ends in hours and hours of talking stuff over, and that is at best , because more offten then not you will miss stuff anyway. For me someone who rises their voice is less of a problem, such people are kicked out of the store and have no place to play then, but If I were in a situation like you I would just throw the game. opponent doesn't play the way you play, your not enjoying the game, he isn't a friend etc etc

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent. This is where I prefer to run 2v2 games. (In fact I always prefer 2v2 games.) Someone learning is much more apt to believe what you are telling them if you are on their team. Also, it's a good way of showing proper tactics and turn phases. Lets face it, it takes a few games being guided through to have ANY idea of whats going on in a 40k game in 7th.

Can you really teach if the person contradicts you at every point? Methinks you did not read the OP.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent.

You can't teach a gak who isn't interested in learning.

Yep, unfortunately sometimes games like these happen. OP, sounds like you did the right thing. The good thing is there is always another war to be fought

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent. This is where I prefer to run 2v2 games. (In fact I always prefer 2v2 games.) Someone learning is much more apt to believe what you are telling them if you are on their team. Also, it's a good way of showing proper tactics and turn phases. Lets face it, it takes a few games being guided through to have ANY idea of whats going on in a 40k game in 7th.

Did you even read the OP? It wasn't that the opponent didn't know rules. It's that he didn't want to learn the rules. If you don't know the rules you don't contradict everything someone who knows the rules says...

Smotejob,
You did nothing wrong. Quite the contrary, if it went down as you say, you are to be commended for simply stating why you are quitting "not enjoying arguing…" and packing up with a minimum of fuss. If more people would politely walk out of games with TFG's the way you did maybe we wouldn't have so many TFG's. If it happens again, I hope you do the same.

My feeling is that in any game there is an unspoken agreement that both parties involved will conduct themselves with good sportsmanship. If one party repeatedly violates this contract, you are under no obligation (not that you ever were) to continue the game.

One last thing I would say is the fact that he was wrong about the rulings is far less important than attitude, argumentativeness and aggressiveness. It's ok to be wrong if you're not a donkey about it. I have a terrible mind for remembering rules, yet I'm very good natured about being corrected.

Let us say there is a type out there that are confused with "wanting to win".

To be more correct they want to "lord over someone": big difference, which is a bit of a member of WAAC but not always.

When they use "the loud voice full of confidence" they are looking for the meek to suck it up.

OP: it appears you were not the opponent they were looking for, someone more compliant.
<edit>To ease some "guilt" remember the other player was more than happy to fight you on everything; he had no regard for your fun.

No worries, these type just want to suck-up your attention and time; by denying both is the perfect remedy, well done.

I can understand the constant questioning of the rules, since he's new. It's better he asks instead of just taking your word for it. I don't mean that in a bad way. He'll be wrong if he's only just started. I still muddle up some rules with similar effects, and I've been playing for 4 years.

Arguing with you in a polite, rules debate-ish way is acceptable. But from the sounds of it, it wasn't in that way.
It sounds like you've done nothing wrong, though.

Out of curiosity, why did he believe you could not seize the initiative?

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent.

You can't teach a gak who isn't interested in learning.

While that might be true. I really doubt that he's not interested in learning the game - more than likely he was frustrated that rules he had no idea existed were effecting him adversely, he might have even felt some rules were being made up because it's hard to trust complete strangers. To me this is totally understandable. I've seen it happen time and time again. This is why I prefer to use 2v2 games as learning tools. It also means you can play a real game to as opposed to babysitting your opponent. It's just a suggestion, some people though don't want to be helped and we have a name for those people. I don't think this was necessarily the case, because he walked out on a game which I've never had to do in over 300 games of 40k. I wasn't there so I don't know the extent of the dudes yelling or frustration outside of a few lines of text but when you tell me things like - he was arguing the rules with me and it was taking an hour to get through a turn then I'd say that's exactly what you should expect from a newbie. I don't think the OP should feel bad for leaving the game, I just think he went into the game expecting it to be a game of 40k when in fact he should have known from the start that it was going to be a terrible experience.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Oh goodness. You played a complete stranger that doesn't know the rules yet? You need to know going into this kind of game that you are going to be more of a teacher than an opponent.

You can't teach a gak who isn't interested in learning.

Truer words never been spoken.

But still - OP, you just did a right thing. I also got a story from the times of 5th edition and my "horror game", but of another kind - an Eldar dude (my "friend", actually!) who was FLIPPING HIS S*IT on my every little itty-bitty question or problem about rules (as I was still learning the game that time, and WAS NOT acting like your "guy" of course !). I just took the approach of just ignoring this guy, and it was just perfect remedy I could take.
Same thing goes with WAAC members - best thing is just to ignore these guys and eventually ostracize them from your LGS by not playing with them.

Oh god... sounds like a scenario fit for the dreaded "dreadsock." Old metallic dreadnought. Put it in an empty sock. Apply to tfg's face.

A player like that can ruin any game.

Walking away is sometimes your best option.

One thing I don't understand is, when you guys disagreed on a rule, how was it resolved? Did you show him in the codex or BRB to prove him wrong?

You would think after the 3rd time he would think, "I might be getting these rules wrong after being proved it's not the way I think."

So how did you prove that you were right? If you showed him in the rule book/codex, then you were correct in quitting the game politely and saying why you did so.

At least you didn't have a guy show up to an flgs with a literal wooden shipping container of models and list build the second he saw your army on the table as you unpacked all your things. I had that happen, I grinned and took it because I don't get to play often and really wanted to play with someone and my flgs is not friendly to 40k play so my choices were few n far between. he was basically list building and from that point onwards we had nothing but hostility in the room as things got worse from there.

Anyway I just took as a learning experience and now I'm not going to be playing with that person again.

Echoing what people are saying, good on you Smotejob. Hope you get a better opponent next time

ionusx wrote:At least you didn't have a guy show up to an flgs with a literal wooden shipping container of models and list build the second he saw your army on the table as you unpacked all your things. I had that happen, I grinned and took it because I don't get to play often and really wanted to play with someone and my flgs is not friendly to 40k play so my choices were few n far between. he was basically list building and from that point onwards we had nothing but hostility in the room as things got worse from there.

Anyway I just took as a learning experience and now I'm not going to be playing with that person again.

What you do for players like that is get the wrong army out (assuming more than one army, and they're kept in the same case), until he's written the list. Then, get your real army out (move the foam trays, make it look like you were moving them to get to the models you were using). Alternatively, let him write his list, then exchange his with yours so you can both see what the other has..

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Sounds like a prime example of 'that guy'.

I ran into him last week. I was playing CSM and I had 3 gifts of mutation + a warlord trait that let me re-roll chaos boons.

My warlord (chaos juggerlord w/ axe of blind fury) ends up rolling 64, which lets me roll an additional 3D+1 times. I end up with 3 rolls which give me fleshbane, Instant death and +1 I. This is like dream rolls come true and I'm just laughing out loud because lets face it this is probably the first time since the release of the CSM codex that anyone rollled anything useful on the chaos boon table.

My opponent just goes: "Well, I quit, you win. let's start over."
So basicly he just asked me: "Hey, I see you rolled good, want to re-roll those because I don't like it when you roll good?"

I told him to play the game that was set up or leave, and he left.

..... I don't even understand these people. It can't be about only winning because he quit that game turn one (that's a loss) to start another one. Ah, I don't get it but I really feel you; I couldn't play with these toxic opponents.

Was he playing Tau or Grey Knights or something? Because I'd want to test myself against a champion with that sort of crazy set-up!

most people who played GKs simply cause they're cheesetastic munchkins have, I imagined moved on in the wake of the 7th edition GK codex

In all honesty I'll play just about any game to the end, even if I'm near tabled or am looking at a hard game that may not really go well for me in general. But players like the one OP faced are a deal breaker. You can't have fun if your opponent wants to be an donkey-cave about everything.

BrianDavion wrote:

most people who played GKs simply cause they're cheesetastic munchkins have, I imagined moved on in the wake of the 7th edition GK codex

I still play GKs and I still get told they are cheesy, but when an army has as many units total as some of the others have for just their HQ slot it's hard not to be and still be competitive.

That said, the OP did the right thing in this scenario. When I was first starting out I lost a lot of games while I learned the rules and there was only one time it didn't sit well with me. Most of my early losses at least taught me something but my first game against Orks turned into my last game against a particular player at my local store. Turns out he's the type of person who will lie and cheat to get a win and for me that's a huge insult.

If your the type of person that has to ruin the fun of others to get your win and make yourself feel better for whatever reason, then your never going to play against me. Rules debates are always going to happen, but let's at least keep it civil and honest.