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Good point. My money is on that he kills either Alpharius or Omegon. Which still leaves one out there.

tgjensen wrote:
The idea that Guilliman would confuse a regular marine for his brother is also pretty absurd.

What happened in 'The Serpent Beneath' has a regular marine pretty much gutted and substantially weakened after being hit by one bolt pistol round at close range to his chestplate.

Guilliman in Unremembered Empire was shot dozens of times, while wearing his casual office clothes by a whole squad of enemy bolters, but healed up not too long after. He'd probably notice even a juiced up Marine 'Alpharius' as being way too easy.

We don't have any substantial modern fluff saying it was an easy kill anyway.

But that also requires Guilliman to have seen Alpharius, as I get the feeling from any Alpha fluff they always tended to be helmeted when in the presence of others.

For the poll though, if it's a battle of my choosing then any of them would do other than corax, as (as far as I recall) none of them were particularly known for their stealth descents, which gives you the advantage of forcing an awful drop on them (i.e. something like the planet Murder) followed up by the isolating of any elements that may come together via hit and run and overwhelming force.

Of those left that leaves you the unpredictability of the Wolves, something that you've unaccounted the Ultra's seeing before and copying and the fact that you're trying to beat the Scars at their own game.

From there it's a case of using the favourite aspects of the remaining legions against them, while providing enough differing sources of attack, that they can't come up with a reliable counter.

Hi there my favourite legion is the Alpha Legion. Does it show?

Honestly I think the Alpha legion fans tend to over state their trickyness. they certinly pull lots of fast ones but but honestly the "everything is a AL trick" gets kinda silly at times. especially in a serious discussion. right now all we have is whats presented to us, the AL tried planning for RGs conventional tactics. and RG adapted. but then I've always viewed the codex as being more orginizational and some tatical guidelines then a "paint by numbers" stragety guide.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

Compliance, maybe. But that includes peaceful bringing-into-the-fold. Russ was third in military victories, Johnson second (by a thin margin to Russ IIRC) - despite the Wolves being one of the smallest Legions. Smaller numbers, yet more victories than almost everyone else. Yeah, that sounds like a bloodthirsty berserk allright :rolleyes: .

Russ was also discovered second. Guilliman and the Lion were discovered later and still have astounding track records. Additionally the Ultramarines spent time on securing worlds after they were taken; ensuring they'd be productive, stable and loyal planets. Part of why the Ultramarines were so vast was because they generally took less casualties as well as having more worlds to draw recruits from.

Shidank wrote:Incorrect. The chapter's tactics and strategies will have altered little since Russ. If anything, removing Russ shows how impressive Space Wolves are. You've actually made the argument more clear.

I find that unlikely. During the Great Crusade all the Legions made use of massive superiority to smash aside resistance in a timely manner (which is pretty much the main way Angron survived). While sometimes they may have been outmatched and only able to pull through with superior tactics it does seem rare. In the 41st millennium the space marines (including the Space Wolves) no longer have the luxury of such an advantage and would likely generally favour taking time over casualties. Not too mention the changes in technology, fleet size, priorities and various other things.

You cut my post in half! Cheater.

I understand the desire to view them as simple, but the killing blow is a legitimate strategy employed by some of the most famous generals in our own history. Russ sucks on the defensive(as shown when the Alpha Legion got his goose) but his offense is a force of nature. There simply hasn't been a blunted Space Wolf assault in the Great Crusade. Their approach to war is to strike first and in such a way as to leave a foe broken. Their strategy is just a faster paced Luna Wolves approach to the iron spear to the face of strategies. Where Luna Wolves adopted a "give no ground" mentality, the Space Wolves went Khan with it and said "who cares about the damn ground?"

BrianDavion wrote:
Honestly I think the Alpha legion fans tend to over state their trickyness. they certinly pull lots of fast ones but but honestly the "everything is a AL trick" gets kinda silly at times. especially in a serious discussion. right now all we have is whats presented to us, the AL tried planning for RGs conventional tactics. and RG adapted. but then I've always viewed the codex as being more orginizational and some tatical guidelines then a "paint by numbers" stragety guide.

I'm a huge alpha legion fan and the 'it's all an AL plot!' Gets old quick, both from the actual authors and from people speculating. They're tricky and very good at what they do but they're not infallible.

MozzyFuzzy, I don't think he would have needed to see Alpharius (although I'm sure they've probably all seen eachother informally at some point or another), in the original story for how Alph was found, he boarded Horus' ship and fought his way to the bridge, and when he got there they both knew they were brothers. I imagine Guilliman can tell the difference between a Primarch and a normal marine from things like their fighting skills and just the sheer awe factor a Primarch has, even Alpharius to a lesser degree. And they might even have a kind of sense for each other due to their creation.

No, the Alpha Legion are definitely above everyone else. While it probably wasn't under the leadership of Alpharius himself, a single Alpha Legionnaire with some Black Legion logistical support wiped out an entire Space Marine chapter in one fell swoop without taking a single loss.

No they're not, and one story of them doing something like that doesn't suddenly make them above everyone else. Sounds pretty badly written if they took zero casualties and one AL guy took out a whole chapter.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not, and one story of them doing something like that doesn't suddenly make them above everyone else. Sounds pretty badly written if they took zero casualties and one AL guy took out a whole chapter.

the only time I can recall the AL destroying a chapter was when they brainwashed children with an activation code that someone got past the hypno-indoctrination and then activated it. a story I always thought was honestly a bit silly.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

There simply hasn't been a blunted Space Wolf assault in the Great Crusade

your source for this is?

 Crazyterran wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

Guilliman is stated as being second only to Horus, or perhaps even his general when it comes to compliances and victories.

There's clearly a fluff contradiction here, as the Lion and the Wolf fluff is mentioned in both the Dark Angels and Space Wolves codices, as well as the Index Astartes. Who was Horus's general?

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not, and one story of them doing something like that doesn't suddenly make them above everyone else. Sounds pretty badly written if they took zero casualties and one AL guy took out a whole chapter.

Under Alpharius, they also took an entire planet and only lose a handful of Astartes in the process, compared to the typical losses of the Ultramarines or Dark Angels. When the Alpha Legion acts competently, they are memetic in their abilities. There's no equal to them in the other Legions- not even the Raven Guard Shadowalking is comparable. They Hydras are effectively the Batman of the Legions, not the Night Lords.

Id say Russ or Vulkan

Russ because he is just a dog which wants to run in and hurt you...which can easily be exploited.

Id actually learn more towards Vulkan his love for humanity would be his weakness. Send a few soldiers/vehicles to start wrecking refugee's and civilians and he would have to send help to them. Which would then be intercepted and destroyed and spread out his army.

I would probably fight against Vulkan.

Everyone is saying Ferrus because he was angry at Istavaan V unfortunately you as a general didn't betray him. When you and his army face off he will be level headed and not angry and march right over you.

 Killionaire wrote:
I think you could just split them into three categories: Great, Unremarkable or specialized, and Liability.

That's a pretty good system I would say. You could explain Russ with it, in that part of his specialization is appearing to be a liability.

Russ's "I'm just doing it to FEWL TEHM!" seems like a cop out.

It's like watching someone practicing karate and being really bad at it, and then them being like "I'm doing it badly on purpose so people will underestimate me!" Yeah. Right.

If lives are at stake, especially your precious Fenrisian ones, why would you not try your hardest?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No they're not, and one story of them doing something like that doesn't suddenly make them above everyone else. Sounds pretty badly written if they took zero casualties and one AL guy took out a whole chapter.

Under Alpharius, they also took an entire planet and only lose a handful of Astartes in the process, compared to the typical losses of the Ultramarines or Dark Angels. When the Alpha Legion acts competently, they are memetic in their abilities. There's no equal to them in the other Legions- not even the Raven Guard Shadowalking is comparable. They Hydras are effectively the Batman of the Legions, not the Night Lords.

Yeah they can pull of stuff like that but how long did that take them to set up? 6 months? A year? The AL work very differently to the other legions but that doesn't make them better than the other legions and it doesn't mean they never make mistakes.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pick Russ and you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can say "woof".

He might have a appeared as a savage berserk, but he didn't end up bested only by Horus and Johnson in number of victories during the Crusades by just rushing in.
He was a barbarian, but that does not mean he was stupid or even remotely incompetent. Behind that veneer is a ruthless intellect.

Nor was he the one the Emperor turned to when we wanted another Legion to be taken down a notch because he just rushes in.

Guilliman is stated as being second only to Horus, or perhaps even his general when it comes to compliances and victories.

There's clearly a fluff contradiction here, as the Lion and the Wolf fluff is mentioned in both the Dark Angels and Space Wolves codices, as well as the Index Astartes. Who was Horus's general?

I think I was typing horus' equal, but flubbed it while typing on my iPad, didn't check what I wrote, and ended up with that.

Know No Fear has Guilliman as = or better as Horus, and I believe the Marine codex says something similiar.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Know No Fear has Guilliman as = or better as Horus, and I believe the Marine codex says something similiar.

I find equal to or better than Horus difficult to accept when established fluff already has the Lion and Russ being second and third, with Horus having brought the most planets to compliance. Does someone here have the actual quote at hand?

Edit: Found the quote, from the 5th ed SM codex:

"With the exception of the Luna Wolves, no Legion conquered as many worlds, or conquered worlds as fast, or left conquered worlds in such good state during the Great Crusade, as the Ultramarines. Whenever Guilliman liberated a world, he would not move on until he had set up a self-sufficient defense system, and left advisors behind to create industry, set up trade routes with the rest of the Imperium, and form a government whose first concern would always be the well-being of the people."

Okay, so there is a fluff contradiction. I'm sticking with the Lion and the Wolf personally since this codex was written by Matt Ward and he's gone on record saying he's an Ultramarines fanboy. Not to mention he doesn't care at all about established fluff, trampling all over it with glee and replacing it with stuff like Draigo carving the name of his boss on Mortarion's heart. Ridiculous.

That is not necessarily a fluff contradiction. The Ultramarines conquered more worlds, while the Dark Angels had more victories. Not every battle is a world conquest.

Oh, and that quote can be found in the 2nd edition Codex:Ultramarines, I believe. So not written by Ward.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The success is basically just him and his legion butchering worlds. You don't need to be a good general to do that.

Depends on how you're defining "good general," honestly. The Primarchs were engineered to be the perfect generals, and they were. The problem is, they're people too, and people have weaknesses.

Horus had delusions of grandeur and doubted himself.

Russ was prone to drink, quick to anger, and had serious issues with authority.

Ferrus Manus tried to bury his emotion in cold logic (that suppression of self finally breaking is what caused his death).

Fulgrim was obsessed with self-perfection and a narcissist.

Vulkan would turn from victory to save worthless humanity.

Dorn had some massive self-worth issues, especially after the death of the Emperor.

Guilliman had trouble making snap decisions when he lacked all the facts.

Magnus the Red had father issues, the smallest legion, and a constant struggle with mutation.

Sanguinus ... okay, Blood Angels fans, he was pretty much perfect.

El'Jonson had basically no people skills.

Perturabo didn't really like being a general.

Mortarion was basically insane and though that suffering built character.

Lorgar had too much of an intellectual bent - he didn't really enjoy war.

Khan was one of those "honor before reason" types.

Curze was tormented by visions of his own demise and enjoyed scaring the crap out of everyone.

Angron was a psychotic murder-hobo with nails in his brain.

Corax was very quick to take to desperate measures.

Alpharius had a chip on his shoulder and something to prove.

The only correct answer is Ferrus Manus.

Russ? Please, read the fluff before you say silly gak like that.

As I said before, none of them are bad generals. They all just have different views on warfare.

No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The success is basically just him and his legion butchering worlds. You don't need to be a good general to do that.

Depends on how you're defining "good general," honestly. The Primarchs were engineered to be the perfect generals, and they were. The problem is, they're people too, and people have weaknesses.

I don't know what your definition of good general is but Angron definitely is not a good general in any sense. He's a good fighter, but at leading a legion he falls way short of the mark. As I've said, as soon as the nails take hold there is no reason, he rushes ahead of his legion and half the time doesn't even know where he is. I don't know how you can say he's a good general. Every single other Primarch I could see arguments for (except maybe Curze) but not Angron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

Why? He made a fatal mistake at Isstvan, but before then he wasn't noticeably worse than the others. Dorn made the same fatal mistake he did at the Iron Cage, is he still worse than Dorn..?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

To be fair, didn't Manus also screw up massively in his fight against the Eldar in 'The Primarches?'

Guilliman considered Ferrus to be one of the "Dauntless Four."

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, the Alpha Legion are definitely above everyone else. While it probably wasn't under the leadership of Alpharius himself, a single Alpha Legionnaire with some Black Legion logistical support wiped out an entire Space Marine chapter in one fell swoop without taking a single loss.

Which event are you referring to?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
No, the Alpha Legion are definitely above everyone else. While it probably wasn't under the leadership of Alpharius himself, a single Alpha Legionnaire with some Black Legion logistical support wiped out an entire Space Marine chapter in one fell swoop without taking a single loss.

Which event are you referring to?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crimson_Consuls

 j31c3n wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, I'd say Ferrus was definitely a pretty bad general, if only by the standards of his brothers.

Your only piece of evidence to support this is that he was killed because of a momentary lapse of judgement.

By that standard, Sanguinius, Guilliman, Dorn, Curze, Horus, and Alpharius are also "the worst general."

Dorn and Alpharius are only MIA. We don't know if they're actually dead.