Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I loved watching one Green Tide army get nuked by Wvyerns after the Guard player dropped the VSG on turn 1... boys were packed in tight too .

Yeah, it's a good trick, but if someone has good anti-tank and good anti-horde, they are going to get hits in on the Boys.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I loved watching one Green Tide army get nuked by Wvyerns after the Guard player dropped the VSG on turn 1... boys were packed in tight too .

I think the Wyverns got 36 hits on turn one. Good thing for the tide player some his boys were rocking the 4+ armor.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Well, it is RAW. It is just like GW though to not see the consequences of combing an enormous unit with the void shield generator.

Well, so is Invisibility...

If Orks had access to invisibility then you would be correct and have a valid argument for changing it. Orks do not have access to it though, and now you are just trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

Finally in a tournament where you saw superheavies flyers on landing pads shooting 2x str d ranged weapons and taking advantage of double saves by shimming around the platform. Summoning spam, gating centurion Stars w invis stacking, fmc spam, drop pods spam blocking objectives, decorian wraiths spam with t5, 3++, 4+++, wave serpent spam, ad-lance, and a plethora of msu denial or tarpit units. You can hardly call a large blob of ork boys with at most 3 av12 shields unfun or broken. Since when did a unit with 3hp at av12 become difficult or unfun? The ork player will still pick up handfuls of boyz each turn.

+1

With all of the brutal builds at the LVO everyone is upset at orks rocking the VSG?

Ouch you comment made me realize you can stack a vsg and invisibility. Since you roll to hit versus your target but resolve the hit versus the av12 shield that means a chaos renegade list could be even more durable then the ork greentide.

You just focus fire on the VSG first. It's not a big deal for quite a few popular builds.

gungo wrote:
. Since when did a unit with 3hp at av12 become difficult or unfun? The ork player will still pick up handfuls of boyz each turn.

There are multiple people who played against it in this thread that seem to have found it unfun.

But it's okay because it's orks. Or something.

Evidently, anything that prevents you from instaganking your opponent is "unfun"

See also: Terminator Armor, Invisibility, Flyers, Reanimation Prototcols

 Blackmoor wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Well, it is RAW. It is just like GW though to not see the consequences of combing an enormous unit with the void shield generator.

Well, so is Invisibility...

If Orks had access to invisibility then you would be correct and have a valid argument for changing it. Orks do not have access to it though, and now you are just trolling.

Not trolling at all, and accusing me of doing so is pretty damn rude.
There are lists that can mix a VSG and Invis, but that wasn't my point (but you knew that).

My point was that Invis was changed because it was 'unfun' and people were shocked GW left it like that.
The VSG (when combined with horde units) can be 'unfun' (re: this thread) and people are shocked GW left it like that.

With all of the brutal builds at the LVO everyone is upset at orks rocking the VSG?

Upset? Not really. Annoyed that one power was changed because it was 'unfun' and a silly rule, but another was left just fine, sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
Evidently, anything that prevents you from instaganking your opponent is "unfun"

See also: Terminator Armor, Invisibility, Flyers, Reanimation Prototcols

Yeah, because that's exactly what people are saying. Thanks for clarifying. You've done a great job!

You come across harsh sometimes yourself. Maybe you don't realize but often you're obviously trying to provoke a reaction.

He's upset invisibility was adjusted and is picking fights to start an argument. I think he failed to realize that invisibility is still extremely competitve and made it into the top 8 of LVO. Would of made it into the top 4 and beat the blood angel scout player had his draigo star not decided to gate, badly scatter, mishap and roll a 1 on the mishap chart and wipe out his entire draigo star in the 5th round.

You know because a unit you can only hit with a 6 no matter what is the same as a unit that has a shield that drops when you hit it with an str 6+ round or the dozen other ways you can circumvent it. Such as assault, shooting it within 12in, taking advantage of it yourself so your opponent can't shoot you unless they drop their own shield, or just knocking it down with anyone of he dozens of weapons that are str6 or higher.

Just as an aside, not to jump in too much, but what's unfun or not has very little to do with who finishes in the top, where player skill matters and clever ways to circumvent problem units are well known.

MVBrandt wrote:
Just as an aside, not to jump in too much, but what's unfun or not has very little to do with who finishes in the top, where player skill matters and clever ways to circumvent problem units are well known.

While I can't suggest the top 8 would have been any different, and player skill is surely the most important overall factor, what is "unfun" is explicitly why no ranged D, invis nerf, and various other changes were made in the ITC FAQ (LVO rules). These rules changes can have profound impacts on the meta, ergo impact the match ups and the way games are played. I would contend that it had more than "very little" impact on some of the top 8 finishes.

Sorry. Typing mobile. My point wasn't that. My point was to refute the claim of all these ways people should figure out how to beat a void tide, or jet star, or invisible centurions, or whatever.

Just because top players can beat and or win with things, doesn't make them fun/fair or not, respectively, with respect to most attendees.

Fun/Unfun is an unreasonable metric.

All it takes is someone to get butthurt that the other army is rock to their scissors and it's "unfun"

Ya at that point fun is completely subjective.
The reason I beleived things such as 2+ rerollables and invisibility was nerfed was because there were ways to stack those abilities so that it became a very low probability of actually doing anything to those units where as other setups such as a void tide has many tactical choices or counters to them.

It may be my subjective opinion but when someone puts an army across the table and in the first roll of psychic powers and warlord traits you realize there is almost nothing you can do to win this game the game ends up to be Unfun. If it's going to be a hard game but you have at least a marginal chance to win. It's still fun. If you can look back at a game and go darn I messed up I shouldn't of done that or I made a mistake and I lost. That's fun. If you finish a game and you can say I had good rolls I played a great game I had a very competitve list and there was nothing I could do to win that game and I got curbstomped by a unkillable unit. That's usually not fun.

This LVO was generally considered a major success because so many lists and Codexs and factions were able to compete. And the people who made it to the top tables beat the random dice gods and just flat out played better then most. That's why it was fun.

Does anyone know how Nick runs the Nurgle Heralds in his list?
They seem kitted out to go with the Plague Drones (and that seems the sensible location for them) but at the same time don't seem fast enough to really work with the unit.
At the same time, it seems like replacing one of the Heralds with Epidemius would work great - you do lose out on 2 ML but I assume those drones are going to be the workhorse of the army so scoring 14 wounds in short order shouldn't really be a problem.

gungo wrote:
He's upset invisibility was adjusted and is picking fights to start an argument.

I'm really not. I was responding to someone saying "Well, it's RAW so deal with it." when FLG decided to change RAW because it was unfun for some people. From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

I think he failed to realize that invisibility is still extremely competitve and made it into the top 8 of LVO.

No, I understand it's still good. That was never - ever - my point.

You know because a unit you can only hit with a 6 no matter what is the same as a unit that has a shield that drops when you hit it with an str 6+ round or the dozen other ways you can circumvent it. Such as assault, shooting it within 12in, taking advantage of it yourself so your opponent can't shoot you unless they drop their own shield, or just knocking it down with anyone of he dozens of weapons that are str6 or higher.

Did I say there were no ways to deal with it? Pretty sure I didn't.
Read the thread. People have complained about the 100 orks + VSG. That's all I was talking about.

rigeld2 wrote:
From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

In all honestly, I don't think anyone who competed in LVO said that. There was just knee jerk bitching about it the instant that tactic was mentioned in this thread.

 adamsouza wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

In all honestly, I don't think anyone who competed in LVO said that. There was just knee jerk bitching about it the instant that tactic was mentioned in this thread.

Someone that competed in LVO actually said that like half thread ago IIRC.

Budzerker wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

Which is one of the most ridiculous rulings I've seen in a long time. I played a greentide with the same thing. Most greentides at the event had one.

In the spirit of altering certain rules to be "more fun" this should be at the top of the list.

At one point the guy had boyz 36ish inches up the table with a couple lone dudes in the back within 12in of the shield... come on...

adamsouza wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

In all honestly, I don't think anyone who competed in LVO said that. There was just knee jerk bitching about it the instant that tactic was mentioned in this thread.

No, someone who competed at the LVO - and faced one of the Green Tide + VSG lists - said that.

I recall him complaining that the Ork Tide players movement was sloppy, that he didn't record his kills, and that it cost him the 2 points he needed, but not about the shields actually making that match unfun.

I think the idea of fun is just a bad argument. It's way to subjective.
Alot of people think ad-lance is unfun. And I mostly agree with them. It's really hiwever just another spam list and it's able to be dealt with by every codex. So I wouldn't bother nerfing it in tournaments cause it's not fun for some people.
Right now I think fmc are one of the most powerful units in game, however I wouldn't nerf them either. However I do find it odd the ITC effectively buffed them by rewording the brb regarding skyfire and blasts. When it really wasn't needed, few units have access to that combo and the ones that do such as tau seems like that can use the help.
2++ rerollable and invis both form the backbone of combos that make a unit nearly untouchable. If later down the line GW makes a broken reliable combo such as 2++ and rerolls 1s on a high offense unit. I would hope tournament organizers adjust it.

Budzerker wrote:

gungo wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
What's the Ork player playing that's interesting.

.

And you can make them semi immune to shooting and overwatch with a void shield generator giving them 3 av12 regerating shields that the entire tide gets to keep as long as 1 ork is within 12 inches of the generator. .

This is probably the worst ruling in any gt currently. 150 ork boys spread out to all 4 courners of the board with 1 boy way in the back under the shield giving the whole mob protection.

Ridiculous.

Spoke with several people who were complaining about it.

Budzerker wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I heard the orks 9th place list was some green tide/void shield generator list where he just daisy chained the guys from the safety of the shields everywhere. Is that true? Because that dosent sound like how it should be allowed to be played.

Which is one of the most ridiculous rulings I've seen in a long time. I played a greentide with the same thing. Most greentides at the event had one.

In the spirit of altering certain rules to be "more fun" this should be at the top of the list.

At one point the guy had boyz 36ish inches up the table with a couple lone dudes in the back within 12in of the shield... come on...

adamsouza wrote:I recall him complaining that the Ork Tide players movement was sloppy, that he didn't record his kills, and that it cost him the 2 points he needed, but not about the shields actually making that match unfun.

That was someone else in the thread. I've quoted both of that persons posts in this thread for your perusal.

You can ignore him if you want, but him (and apparently "several" people at the event) were complaining about it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I think the idea of fun is just a bad argument. It's way to subjective.

And yet Invisibility objectively had to be nerfed? Don't misunderstand - changing Invis doesn't bother me. But one of the reasons it was changed (and the 2++ reroll) was because playing against it wasn't fun.
I just don't get why it being unfun isn't enough in one situation, but is in others.

While unfun was part of the decision. I'm sure That wasn't the only reason. 2++ and invis are unique because they create the reliable combo of a nearly untouchable unit. If there was a reliable combo on a high offense unit such as 2++ and rerolls 1. It should be adjusted as well for tournaments. Cover ignoring d weapon and hellfire templates were completely not allowed for similar reasons.

The main thing to take away was the the LVO was fun and relatively fair. Would making fmc susceptible to skyfire and blasts make it more balanced and "fun"? Maybe, it could of also made fmc a lot less competitive or at best just made the guy who played the 10th place nid/tau list a lot stronger vs the current meta.

A simpler fix to the fear of FMC's would be to remove the ability to run a Hive Fleet Detachment alongside a CAD. If most armies only have access to a single Hive Tyrant, they wouldn't be nearly as popular, as frightening, or as unbalanced.

I find playing certain people "unfun" and so I refuse to play them. Perhaps applying the same idea to the tournaments you attend or don't is a good idea. Don't like LVO rules, don't attend it.

Locally we only use LVO/ITC rulings for events specifically designed to help our player base prep for a tournament using those rules; otherwise we don't use it because we don't like it and choose to play 7th edition with only minor restrictions on some units or not depending on the format we want for that month. The result? People have fun. Game Empire Pasadena has been running 40k tournaments every second Saturday of the month for over 8 years straight. It may not be GT level but you can't argue with a scene that has success of that magnitude over 4 editions of this game. They must be doing something right, that something is providing a rich and diverse set of tournament formats.

Arguing about what is fun and "unfun" on the internet as a basis for making or un-making rules changes doesn't work. All you can do is play events with the format you like, not play those you dislike, and vote in the ITC/LVO questionnaires whenever you're given the opportunity. How many minds have been changed by threads like this?

tag8833 wrote:
A simpler fix to the fear of FMC's would be to remove the ability to run a Hive Fleet Detachment alongside a CAD. If most armies only have access to a single Hive Tyrant, they wouldn't be nearly as popular, as frightening, or as unbalanced.

Or remove the CTA Allies.

"A simple Fix", "Nerf this", "FAQ that" , "remove X"....

How about, dont agree with what the tourney is running or allowing to be run dont play in it...

As said, they took a poll, made some changes, and made people aware of the changes. They put the changes out prior to people paying to play, 200+ people still showed.

Find a way to counter, adapt, overcome. Be solution oriented during the game itself, prepare for the next time. Heck even hate on a guy who came up with the idea or fielded the list you could not think of.

But to constantly make arguments of statements of things being unfair or broken, when you know the rules and FAQ prior to going to the event. Is like moving next to a Pig farm, and then complaining it smells like pigs after you move in.

Back to the Tourney itself, At the end the video on twitch went out, what was the big space marine trophy for that was sitting on the table?

Also, was the list posted of the green tide army? Was it in deed just one big unit of boyz? did he have any suppot units? What HQ's were in the tide. I'd be interested in knowing that.

Todd: The army for the green tide is here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/635005.page#7620860

And very well said, if you dont like it dont go. Otherwise put on the big boy pants and game on

You mean this trophy todd?



I took a picture with it too but cant get it to upload