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OrdoSean wrote:
You mean this trophy todd?



I took a picture with it too but cant get it to upload

Is it the one where im holding you tightly

That is an awesome picture!!

Man, all these people complaining about VSG! (I was one of the guys running Green Tide with it)

I didn't realize that compared to summoning, FMCs w/ 2++ rerollable invuls, Wave Serpant Spam, and Str D ranged that AV 12 breaks the bank!

Who knew? I guess I should have just been running a wall of chimeras! Their front armor would be impenetrable!

OrdoSean wrote:
You mean this trophy todd?



I took a picture with it too but cant get it to upload

Yeah that one, what is it? With Alex smiling so bright, im guessing its the LVO grand trophy, and winners each year get their name on it?

 Fxeni wrote:
Man, all these people complaining about VSG! (I was one of the guys running Green Tide with it)

I had planned to bring one until the FAQ that granted Void Shields to an entire unit, not just models in range. I did 80-90% of my prep with a VSG in my list. But the FAQ turned it into a liability for my highly mobile, low model count army. Retrospectively that was a mistake, because it would have saved me from Lynxes, and I never saw a single unit larger than 18-20 Orks in all of my games, and those Orks were in a battlewagon.

Would you have brought one if the FAQ had gone the other way, and only protected those models in range?

tag8833 wrote:

 Fxeni wrote:
Man, all these people complaining about VSG! (I was one of the guys running Green Tide with it)

I had planned to bring one until the FAQ that granted Void Shields to an entire unit, not just models in range. I did 80-90% of my prep with a VSG in my list. But the FAQ turned it into a liability for my highly mobile, low model count army. Retrospectively that was a mistake, because it would have saved me from Lynxes, and I never saw a single unit larger than 18-20 Orks in all of my games, and those Orks were in a battlewagon.

Would you have brought one if the FAQ had gone the other way, and only protected those models in range?

Good question. Honestly? I'm not sure - the VSG really only mainly did anything in the first game turn - after that it was pretty meh (but I expected as much).

It was quite nice to protect against the alpha strike for things like my Tankbustas, my Mek Guns, and my grots though. So, I'm not sure if I would have taken it without the FAQ - I hadn't tested it that way, so I'm not sure if it would have been worth the points.

Yeah that VSG is the perfect counter to alpha D weapons for certain, each D hit is just a loss of 1 shield. That is the ultimate ---- block lol. So unless your opponent has a reliable way to drop the shields before they drop the D...its Beta Strike time!

Also note if you fill the shield area, you are also denying haywire, and Grav attacks against your units, which prevents the Centstar (and others) from being as effective that 1st turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
He's upset invisibility was adjusted and is picking fights to start an argument.

I'm really not. I was responding to someone saying "Well, it's RAW so deal with it." when FLG decided to change RAW because it was unfun for some people. From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

I think he failed to realize that invisibility is still extremely competitve and made it into the top 8 of LVO.

No, I understand it's still good. That was never - ever - my point.

You know because a unit you can only hit with a 6 no matter what is the same as a unit that has a shield that drops when you hit it with an str 6+ round or the dozen other ways you can circumvent it. Such as assault, shooting it within 12in, taking advantage of it yourself so your opponent can't shoot you unless they drop their own shield, or just knocking it down with anyone of he dozens of weapons that are str6 or higher.

Did I say there were no ways to deal with it? Pretty sure I didn't.
Read the thread. People have complained about the 100 orks + VSG. That's all I was talking about.

As one of the ORK players with a green tide, and i think there were 3 or 4 of us at most that means a total of 24 people could have thought the games were unfun.
Since i played another tide it drops to 22. I went 4-2 so down to 20.
The top ork was 5-1 i think so its 19. the other orks went about .500 percent so down to about 10 possible people that thought it was unfun out of 256+.

If you beat the tide its a challenge and a good win, your opinion does not count, you won.

So since the orks have crap for shooting, nothing that ignores cover and no access to telepathy , why cant we have one thing????????

Playing charge of the slow moving brigade while getting pounded by indirect is a drag.

anyways just about every tournament besides LVO has there own version of COMP by saying you can only use these three buildings out of stronghold assult. Reese may make some rule changes but at least we can almost use the whole rules for stronghold as GW wrote them.


WAAAAAAA ORK

 z3n1st wrote:
Yeah that VSG is the perfect counter to alpha D weapons for certain, each D hit is just a loss of 1 shield. That is the ultimate ---- block lol. So unless your opponent has a reliable way to drop the shields before they drop the D...its Beta Strike time!

Also note if you fill the shield area, you are also denying haywire, and Grav attacks against your units, which prevents the Centstar (and others) from being as effective that 1st turn.

If you can't glance down 3 AV12 before firing your D, you might have a problem larger than VSG.

How many times have you fired an entire army at a Rhino and failed to do ANYTHING to it? Just saying it happens, defense is about layers of protection, if there is a rock to your scissors, then mitigate it as best you can, or bring your own rock and hope you get to toss it first.

stormboy97 wrote:
If you beat the tide its a challenge and a good win, your opinion does not count, you won.

O.o

You could win and still not have fun.

I can't find anything in the rulebook about an army being "fun" or "unfun."

Id add that, after reading this thread it's a great example of why I stopped playing after 4th. But some friends went to the BAO last year and told me "it was awesome, there was a giant 40k tournament and the Internet stayed home" and I trusted them, and went to the LVO. It was amazingly fun and Im glad I went. TBH I didn't meet anyone who didn't have fun.

stormboy97 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
He's upset invisibility was adjusted and is picking fights to start an argument.

I'm really not. I was responding to someone saying "Well, it's RAW so deal with it." when FLG decided to change RAW because it was unfun for some people. From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

I think he failed to realize that invisibility is still extremely competitve and made it into the top 8 of LVO.

No, I understand it's still good. That was never - ever - my point.

You know because a unit you can only hit with a 6 no matter what is the same as a unit that has a shield that drops when you hit it with an str 6+ round or the dozen other ways you can circumvent it. Such as assault, shooting it within 12in, taking advantage of it yourself so your opponent can't shoot you unless they drop their own shield, or just knocking it down with anyone of he dozens of weapons that are str6 or higher.

Did I say there were no ways to deal with it? Pretty sure I didn't.
Read the thread. People have complained about the 100 orks + VSG. That's all I was talking about.

As one of the ORK players with a green tide, and i think there were 3 or 4 of us at most that means a total of 24 people could have thought the games were unfun.
Since i played another tide it drops to 22. I went 4-2 so down to 20.
The top ork was 5-1 i think so its 19. the other orks went about .500 percent so down to about 10 possible people that thought it was unfun out of 256+.

If you beat the tide its a challenge and a good win, your opinion does not count, you won.

So since the orks have crap for shooting, nothing that ignores cover and no access to telepathy , why cant we have one thing????????

Playing charge of the slow moving brigade while getting pounded by indirect is a drag.

anyways just about every tournament besides LVO has there own version of COMP by saying you can only use these three buildings out of stronghold assult. Reese may make some rule changes but at least we can almost use the whole rules for stronghold as GW wrote them.


WAAAAAAA ORK

You played another Tide? Would it happened to have been in Round 2 for KP? That was where my Tide faced off against another Tide.

Trasvi wrote:
Does anyone know how Nick runs the Nurgle Heralds in his list?
They seem kitted out to go with the Plague Drones (and that seems the sensible location for them) but at the same time don't seem fast enough to really work with the unit.
At the same time, it seems like replacing one of the Heralds with Epidemius would work great - you do lose out on 2 ML but I assume those drones are going to be the workhorse of the army so scoring 14 wounds in short order shouldn't really be a problem.

Youtube battlerep of that list here. I believe he runs the speed spell that allows for Fleet on the heralds. Not sure if that works with slow and purposeful. I haven't watched it in depth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P-9J3jl0R0

 Fxeni wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
He's upset invisibility was adjusted and is picking fights to start an argument.

I'm really not. I was responding to someone saying "Well, it's RAW so deal with it." when FLG decided to change RAW because it was unfun for some people. From posts in this thread, the orks+VSG was unfun.

I think he failed to realize that invisibility is still extremely competitve and made it into the top 8 of LVO.

No, I understand it's still good. That was never - ever - my point.

You know because a unit you can only hit with a 6 no matter what is the same as a unit that has a shield that drops when you hit it with an str 6+ round or the dozen other ways you can circumvent it. Such as assault, shooting it within 12in, taking advantage of it yourself so your opponent can't shoot you unless they drop their own shield, or just knocking it down with anyone of he dozens of weapons that are str6 or higher.

Did I say there were no ways to deal with it? Pretty sure I didn't.
Read the thread. People have complained about the 100 orks + VSG. That's all I was talking about.

As one of the ORK players with a green tide, and i think there were 3 or 4 of us at most that means a total of 24 people could have thought the games were unfun.
Since i played another tide it drops to 22. I went 4-2 so down to 20.
The top ork was 5-1 i think so its 19. the other orks went about .500 percent so down to about 10 possible people that thought it was unfun out of 256+.

If you beat the tide its a challenge and a good win, your opinion does not count, you won.

So since the orks have crap for shooting, nothing that ignores cover and no access to telepathy , why cant we have one thing????????

Playing charge of the slow moving brigade while getting pounded by indirect is a drag.

anyways just about every tournament besides LVO has there own version of COMP by saying you can only use these three buildings out of stronghold assult. Reese may make some rule changes but at least we can almost use the whole rules for stronghold as GW wrote them.


WAAAAAAA ORK

You played another Tide? Would it happened to have been in Round 2 for KP? That was where my Tide faced off against another Tide.

I played a Green Tide in round 2 and it was everything I hoped for. One long assault phase starting at the bottom of 1. Even had a Stompa join in the massive brawl. Loved every second of it.

gungo wrote:
While unfun was part of the decision. I'm sure That wasn't the only reason. 2++ and invis are unique because they create the reliable combo of a nearly untouchable unit. If there was a reliable combo on a high offense unit such as 2++ and rerolls 1. It should be adjusted as well for tournaments. Cover ignoring d weapon and hellfire templates were completely not allowed for similar reasons.

The main thing to take away was the the LVO was fun and relatively fair. Would making fmc susceptible to skyfire and blasts make it more balanced and "fun"? Maybe, it could of also made fmc a lot less competitive or at best just made the guy who played the 10th place nid/tau list a lot stronger vs the current meta.

I can help clarify part of why it feels like there is some discrepancy, even though I'm sure the answer still won't please people.

The actual FAQ that you can download from Frontline gaming (the ITC FAQ) is a collaborative document that, 99% of which is shared between Frontline & Adepticon. The rulings made in that document tend to be more from a general answering of what we think the rules say/what we think the rules are trying to say/general tournament logistics perspective.

The rulings Frontline made outside of that document (nerfing 2++, invisibility, limiting certain Lords of War, etc) were made solely by Frontline, based on Reece's personal experience and input he personally received, as obviously is his right as a T.O.

The ruling making the 'Hard to Hit' rule behave the same between both Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures is in the FAQ, and was made more from the point of view that the differences in that rule between the two unit types is likely a typo because it creates a strange dichotomy between how Flyers and FMCs are targeted, without any explicit reason given why that should be the case.

So whether or not Reece will or should decide to nerf FMCs in future events is obviously something I'm sure he will continue to consider, but that's why what seems like a discrepancy to you exists: because the FAQ is a group effort focused on one point of view and the other rulings are more just Reece's call alone focusing on addressing the issues he sees with game balance and completely unfun player experiences (in his opinion, and then voted on by attendees).

I can see why it was done or thought maybe it was a typo. I am not sure the game was made better by the decision though. Not like there is a lot of access to skyfire and blasts Mostly just tau. I could also be horribly wrong and fmc become to weak.

I think the decision for 2+ rerolls and invis was great too at least in practice they were still highly competitive armies lists and mostly balanced. Reece has his exit poll and I'm sure the many people will provide feedback to use. Don't get me wrong for the first major gt this went by resoundly well with close matches and fun had by all. Thanks again to all who set it up.

This was a nice recap of the Tauanids (who took 10th place) games:

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6709/lvo-recap-tauanids-take-best-tau-and-10th-place?cigx=d.cac,stid.230,sid.65685,lid.6,mid.258

However, with him taking the Hivefleet Leviathan formation as a Flyrant delivery system, and literally half of his opponents doing the same, I'm not sure that FAQ tweak to FMC is a good one. It'd be really, really nice to see tyranids doing more than allying in flyrants and mucolids to a large percentage of the armies at an event!

He also described his army build here:

http://www.torrentoffire.com/6650/anatomy-of-the-list-tauanids

 RiTides wrote:
However, with him taking the Hivefleet Leviathan formation as a Flyrant delivery system, and literally half of his opponents doing the same, I'm not sure that FAQ tweak to FMC is a good one. It'd be really, really nice to see tyranids doing more than allying in flyrants and mucolids to a large percentage of the armies at an event!

IMHO, FAQ rulings (and I mean straight up FAQ rulings on frequently asked questions) should not be made based on the power levels of the current meta. The ruling in the ITC FAQ on FMCs was not made considering whether or not it would make FMCs more or less powerful, but rather based on the fact that the discrepancy of the 'hard to hit' rule between flyers and FMCs seems likely (to those of us voting) to be a typo, and has a really good possibility to confuse players at a large event.

So if Reece or any other T.O. wants to nerf FMCs in general, that is obviously fine, but the ruling in the ITC FAQ IMHO is still the 'right one' because FAQ rulings in general should not be made based on powering up or nerfing units.

I agree and it makes perfect sense and regardless if fmc are a strong choice right now in the Meta. They are not that bad. I am sure many other tournament organizers will look at the LVO and how well it went and take note.
Even Sean's nid list wasn't undefeated or any demon fmc lists.
I honestly think balance was about as good as it can get if any tourny organizer was keeping track of that. Although I have a feeling Lynx on sky shields won't be a common sight at future tournys.

It takes a level head to make the best FAQs. There are different levels from clarification to straight up changing the rules. Personally I'm against change because it's not fair. Clarifications on the other hand help to silence the rules lawyers.

Honestly the community FAQS are the only thing you're going to get and if your group adopts them good, our group did and it's made play a ton easier. GW obviously does not care about the rules from a rules standpoint, and are very rarely if at all updting faqs and concerns of the community.

I actually can't think of a time ITC or Adepticon FAQEd something then it came out that it was a complete opposite ruling from an official GW.

Can anyone think of an example?

IMO the TO can do what they want but I don't think it's a typo between flyers and fmc's. It's also a ruling that happens in a tournament with D weapons and super heavies, my guess is a lot of fmc's were spared splash damage.

I think it's a sore point because of the nerf to invisible. It is a bit hard to swallow IMO because you essentially took the better part of invis and gave it to fmc's.

Most fmc's for los purposes aren't very high, no nearly as high as a flyer model. I think the only exceptions are the nid flyer on a flying stand. Put it this way, belakor and a storm raven are at a much different height, hence gw's intention of one being able to be hit by blasts and the other not being able to be hit.

I think the 2++ is the only change I think makes sense.

Hollismason wrote:
I actually can't think of a time ITC or Adepticon FAQEd something then it came out that it was a complete opposite ruling from an official GW.

Can anyone think of an example?

The ruling about conferring Infiltrate? /wink

think its really all about fun vs not fun to play against like others have said. spamming invisibility might not be fun, neither is playing rerolling 2++, If Baron was still around the it was a true reroll you'd see plenty of that in CtA armies still. Meta is meta, nids are hot because of Flyrants and 45pts worth of troops to get 3 of them. I would think FAQ both help and hinder but at the same time how many people would bring nids or demons or lynx if CtA was the actual fix by either nerfing it to a roll of a 1-3 or more then 12 " deployment(good question is how many people actually roll for the effect of it) or going so far to ban CtA allies?

I think people should not blindly put their faith in TOs... They will do what they want, explain why it's needed then deny any favoritism.

Hence why Frontline bases any rules changes on polls. They won't make any change unless they first hear enough complaints for them to view it as an issue, then for it to pass their bs meter, then for the players at their events to give it a firm approval. And so far, I've yet to hear anyone who actually attended have any real complaints about Frontline's rules or FAQ's.

I don't know what was up with Nova and their 270 degree serpent shield firing arc, though...

 yakface wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
However, with him taking the Hivefleet Leviathan formation as a Flyrant delivery system, and literally half of his opponents doing the same, I'm not sure that FAQ tweak to FMC is a good one. It'd be really, really nice to see tyranids doing more than allying in flyrants and mucolids to a large percentage of the armies at an event!

IMHO, FAQ rulings (and I mean straight up FAQ rulings on frequently asked questions) should not be made based on the power levels of the current meta. The ruling in the ITC FAQ on FMCs was not made considering whether or not it would make FMCs more or less powerful, but rather based on the fact that the discrepancy of the 'hard to hit' rule between flyers and FMCs seems likely (to those of us voting) to be a typo, and has a really good possibility to confuse players at a large event.

So if Reece or any other T.O. wants to nerf FMCs in general, that is obviously fine, but the ruling in the ITC FAQ IMHO is still the 'right one' because FAQ rulings in general should not be made based on powering up or nerfing units.

That certainly makes sense as a FAQ design philosophy. However, if making tweaks (as some were made here) with balance / etc in mind, it certainly seems that this is something that should be considered. Especially if the original wording of the rule (guessed typo or not) would lead to it being played in a more balanced way.

Using polls is as good a method as any for this, I think (and as flawed as any!)... I appreciate Frontline's transparency with this, and think they're doing a good job with a very hard task!

Yeah, the polls they do aren't going to get perfect statistical results, but it really doesn't actually matter if they do or not. Frontline will hear arguments out, and be as transparent as possible, with the goal not to arbitrarily balance the game but to make their event as fun as possible for the people attending. Monday morning internet quarterbacking aside, by all accounts they've done a phenomenal job.