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Blackmoor wrote:

 krootman. wrote:


CTA is actually a good thing for the game. Makes it very very hard to build one list that can counter everything. IMO when not playing with ranged d, the competitive side of this game is more player skill based then it has ever been before. Building a great list is not enough to get you through a gt anymore.

I am going to disagree. When you allow everything people just take whatever the latest and greatest formation is. How many Adamantine Lance formations were there at the Nova Open, and how many Leviathan formations were at the LVO?

It is becoming less skill based because if you do not take one of the few top armies you will have no chance no matter how good you are.

Infact it is becoming more skill based, every player from the east coast that I practiced with for lvo could reliably deal with adlance. In testing I was 0 and 6 playing adlance. Also just because you take the latest and greatest thing doesn't mean you will win. You dont think anyone who practiced for this event didnt practice with, and against these lists. In face I played about 5 games with nids allied with levi before lvo to get an idea of what it could and couldn't do in the format...so I was quite ready to play them with MY SINGLE CAD eldar list.

Blackmoor wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

Well accept for the fact, plenty of the "not few top armies" scored high and did well at LVO....

Again, I disagree. (Except for the Orks that were a counter-meta army, and I think only one of them did well)

A lot of people look at the packaging and think that the top armies are different. Do you think that spending 300 points out of 1850 on lictors makes your army a lictor army when you spend about that much on one hive tyrant? Sean's list was hive tyrants and mawlocs. Those 6 models were 2/3 of his points and they did most of the killing. Everything else helped, and synergized well, but the TMCs did all of the heavy lifting.

Nick's scout army had less than 500 points of scouts in it, but what it really was is a centurion star featuring rock hard HQ/ICs and centurions to do most of the killing.

Don't get confused by what tangential units are around the killing units.

What you are not taking into consideration is the synergy these lists have, if you listen to how he won some of those games, he wouldnt have been able to win with out his hive guard deck charing objectives, or his lictors tieing up key units at key turns, list synergy will win you games. My wraith knights and serpents do the majority of heavy lifting in my lists...but I wouldnt have won the majority of my games if it wasn't for my jetbike units....

luke1705 wrote:There truly was incredible variety among the top lists at the LVO. Glad to see that the game is as much about being an outstanding general as what list you bring, and that there are no dominant outliers in the LVO format. Truly enjoying that point system

This is why CTA allies and 2 source limit is so fantastic for the game. I will agree with the fact that you literally need to know what almost everything in the game does if you want a real chance at winning a gt, but the game has never been more skill based then it is now. (Dont get me wrong there is still a ton of luck involved too)

DarkLink wrote:So, the fact that one list contained, what, 4 Centurions, and the other was playing effectively 300pts down because according to the internet Lictors suck and obviously the only thing that mattered in the entire army was his three flyrants, and despite the fact that there were tons of far nastier armies in attendance (at least, nasty according to the internet) that these guys had to beat out to win, skill had absolutely nothing to do with it and they only won because they were playing cheesy netlists.


Edit: 3 Centurions, not 4. And he didn't have Tigirius or Loth or Draigo. Yet someone actually thinks that his army was just a "Centstar" list? WTF?

I think alot of people will just toss the star lable (myself included) to anything that has multiple characters joining said unit.

Tomb King wrote:

chipstar1 wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

Tsilber wrote:

Well accept for the fact, plenty of the "not few top armies" scored high and did well at LVO....

Again, I disagree. (Except for the Orks that were a counter-meta army, and I think only one of them did well)

A lot of people look at the packaging and think that the top armies are different. Do you think that spending 300 points out of 1850 on lictors makes your army a lictor army when you spend about that much on one hive tyrant? Sean's list was hive tyrants and mawlocs. Those 6 models were 2/3 of his points and they did most of the killing. Everything else helped, and synergized well, but the TMCs did all of the heavy lifting.

Nick's scout army had less than 500 points of scouts in it, but what it really was is a centurion star featuring rock hard HQ/ICs and centurions to do most of the killing.

Don't get confused by what tangential units are around the killing units.

Alan, if you think this game is about killing things, you're more lost than I'd hoped.

It is the easiest way to win in any format. If your opponents army cease to exist then most tournaments award you the victory for tabling your opponent. However, if your army is also getting slaughter it is hard to capture and/or hold those objectives. His point is valid. Those listed were named lictor shame, and a scout list but neither had those models doing the heavy lifting. Even the eldar list that was near the top featured Range D! Thy grey knight list also had a centurion star with draigo to escort them around.

again it is all about list synergy, and it is very very hard to table a quality opponent with a quality list anymore.

LordBlades wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 krootman. wrote:


CTA is actually a good thing for the game. Makes it very very hard to build one list that can counter everything. IMO when not playing with ranged d, the competitive side of this game is more player skill based then it has ever been before. Building a great list is not enough to get you through a gt anymore.

I am going to disagree. When you allow everything people just take whatever the latest and greatest formation is. How many Adamantine Lance formations were there at the Nova Open, and how many Leviathan formations were at the LVO?

It is becoming less skill based because if you do not take one of the few top armies you will have no chance no matter how good you are.

Whereas putting CtA on the chopping block will only allow SOME armies (determined most likely randomly by GW at the time of the allymatrix publishing) to take the latest and greatest formation.

IMO this will only reduce the number of top armies that have the best chance at winning (and implicitly list variety at the very top) as they limit what codexes get access to the best stuff.

Exactly, I was going to attend a single source event a few weeks ago and realized for all the comp they put in, my lvo list was 100% legal, the exact lists they were trying to prevent were still legal in their event. At least by allowing everything (minus non character low) in a 2 source cta format, you take alot of the power away from list building.

SCP Yeeman wrote:I still enjoyed Chip's comment to Alan about this game not being about killing units. Which is odd, since you will not win without killing units. And no that does not mean tabling. You need units that can deal with the best and brightest in the game. Ignore Flyrants and try to win. Ignore Knights and try to win. Goodluck with that.

As far as CtA goes, it is part of the game and let it go. Deployment is the most important part (to me) of the game and that 12'' bubble could prove to be huge. And LVO cannot be the measuring stick for eliminating CtA as they seemed to have no impact on the Top 8.

Ingore flyrants is exactly what I mostly did at lvo when I played 5 flyrants in kps....and I was able to win.

LVO cant be the only measuring stick for eliminating CTA, but it is a great indicator for what cta allies currently mean to this game. Also you can not go off the top 8 results as determining factors, the games leading up to the top 8 were so close that one dice difference could see a complete difference in the standings. IMO you have to look at the 5 and 1 players and see what % of armies were what builds. I think the # of different builds in the top 32 show how healthy the game is right now.

IMHO I don't think it matters what rules you make there are people out there that are just very good at gaming the system. By diminishing one thing you increase another and it can never be equally done. LVO sounds like a success and an event I would love to go to but the shifts in the rules keep me and others away as I just don't have time to paint up an army for one event. You can never pick and choose what you want and expect everything to come out even.

I fail to see how taking 3 Flyrants makes one a more tactical player. It's spamming a good unit that's all. To a lot of people there is more to the game in general than being WAAC.

Man we can go on and on about what to nerf or whats to powerful or whats to fair.

1 person claims X, this persons says no thats not true.
1 person says Y, another person says no thats not fair...

LVO did a Q&A before making a mission packet, people were aware and signed up for the tourney, 200+. It was a good showing.

Its getting to the point that why should they cater to every little issue thats really not big deal.

Just dont go if you dont like it. But honestly all this time searching google, doing math hammer, writing long articles about how GW is unfair, and making up definitions for nerd terms we invented, then arguing over it.... Seriously perhaps that time should be spent practicing or coming up with list. Or simply some people should accept the fact they probably are just not as good as they think they are, and should stop digging for reasons why its someone else fault.

Dozer Blades wrote:I fail to see how taking 3 Flyrants makes one a more tactical player. It's spamming a good unit that's all. To a lot of people there is more to the game in general than being WAAC.

That is my point it doesn't sure 2 people who took 3 flyrants landed in the top 10, but thats because they built their list around the flyrants and tested the gak out of them. You can't just add 3 flyrants into a list and expect it to be good.

Tsilber wrote:Man we can go on and on about what to nerf or whats to powerful or whats to fair.

1 person claims X, this persons says no thats not true.
1 person says Y, another person says no thats not fair...

LVO did a Q&A before making a mission packet, people were aware and signed up for the tourney, 200+. It was a good showing.

Its getting to the point that why should they cater to every little issue thats really not big deal.

Just dont go if you dont like it. But honestly all this time searching google, doing math hammer, writing long articles about how GW is unfair, and making up definitions for nerd terms we invented, then arguing over it.... Seriously perhaps that time should be spent practicing or coming up with list. Or simply some people should accept the fact they probably are just not as good as they think they are, and should stop digging for reasons why its someone else fault.

Exactly, the only way you will do well in these huge events is play testing and practicing! Now obviously everyone has lives and schedules outside this game, and other things they care about so the amount of practice time will vary. I know myself and the majority of the guys I went to lvo with got between 9 to 50 practice games in before the event over the course of a few months.

Or play fair...

Anyways everybody is entitled to their belly aching. That's a big part of what the Internet is for.

Fluff is dumb here from the standpoint that:

All good guys = team up for the greater good (Batman and Spiderman find common ground)

All bad guys = can't team up to get along. (Joker and Carnage would try to murder each other first, but isnt this the keep the one eye open rule?)

Two of my favorite things about coming back to 40k recently:

1) I am now able to convert everything to Chaos...Chaos Knights, Chaos Tau.

2) With CTA allies, it makes all purchases of splinter armies fun, b/c you know that you can use them somewhere

Isn't the issue really the Leviathan detachment? Didn't we have this before with AdLance and wave serpents? Only now, we can get rid of something we don't like under the flag of "We are being fluffy"? What about the people that can't decide on an army, or the evil race enthusiasts? They aren't allowed their own fluff?

The Ally matrix as it is now is very one sided towards the Imperium even giving them battle brothers.

Maybe Mucolids could be removed as troops for the purpose of the Leviathan detachment? At least tax harder for taking 3x Flyrants.

Last edition you saw lots and lots of Taudar eldau lists... Don't bitch because it is good for Imperialis now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Or play fair...

Anyways everybody is entitled to their belly aching. That's a big part of what the Internet is for.

Ha might as well have said that from the start

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Last edition you saw lots and lots of Taudar eldau lists... Don't bitch because it is good for Imperialis now.

So current imbalances shouldn't be criticized due to past imbalances?

Tsilber wrote:
Man we can go on and on about what to nerf or whats to powerful or whats to fair.

1 person claims X, this persons says no thats not true.
1 person says Y, another person says no thats not fair...

LVO did a Q&A before making a mission packet, people were aware and signed up for the tourney, 200+. It was a good showing.

Its getting to the point that why should they cater to every little issue thats really not big deal.

Just dont go if you dont like it. But honestly all this time searching google, doing math hammer, writing long articles about how GW is unfair, and making up definitions for nerd terms we invented, then arguing over it.... Seriously perhaps that time should be spent practicing or coming up with list. Or simply some people should accept the fact they probably are just not as good as they think they are, and should stop digging for reasons why its someone else fault.

This is a very good point. There are a million things we can argue about to tweak but I doubt with a game this big and as many variables and combinations that wh40k has you will ever find perfect balance.
While there are things I would like seen adjusted I guess the main question to ask is.
If people are claiming this last LVO was as balanced as we have ever seen it. If it's not broke why are we arguing about fixing it?
Is banning cta at next years lVO making the game more balanced? According to the current years results it doesn't.

Personally I find the 2+ rerollable rule a bit unneeded. A 2+ armour save even with a reroll is completely irrelevant when faced with ap2, rending and a slew of other rules. If anything that rule could be tweaked to just work on 2+ invulnerables which is way more restrictive.

The invisibility nerf is also a bit overhanded because it makes blasts immensely better vs invis. Bs1 large blasts have a very good chance at hitting its invis target. If the idea was to allow blasts to be relevant to invis units then a better ruling should of been to allow blasts to target invis units but always scatter 2d6.

But then you go back to the point above. If it's not broke why fix it?

LordBlades wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Last edition you saw lots and lots of Taudar eldau lists... Don't bitch because it is good for Imperialis now.

So current imbalances shouldn't be criticized due to past imbalances?

I'm pointing out the hyprocritical nature. It was okay in sixth but suddenly not now because it's no longer an advantage for xenos. Totally lame imo.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Last edition you saw lots and lots of Taudar eldau lists... Don't bitch because it is good for Imperialis now.

So current imbalances shouldn't be criticized due to past imbalances?

I'm pointing out the hyprocritical nature. It was okay in sixth but suddenly not now because it's no longer an advantage for xenos. Totally lame imo.

Who said it was okay in 6th? And it's not just an advantage for xenos - anyone can CTA ally 3x Flyrants.

What does CtA have to do with BB ??

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What does CtA have to do with BB ??

I think he means that cta balances out the allies matrix, where as no cta allies tends to heavily favor any impy army, and to a lesser extent eldar.

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

 RiTides wrote:

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

My favorite part was how it went ignored by all the posters it was relevant to. guys.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

My favorite part was how it went ignored by all the posters it was relevant to. guys.

How are they supposed to get into a major internets argument over it though?!?!

 Remedy4389 wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

My favorite part was how it went ignored by all the posters it was relevant to. guys.

How are they supposed to get into a major internets argument over it though?!?!

It's something we snicker at quite often at our FLGS. If you make a reasoned, well thought out post, intended to end debate amicably it goes ignored for pages. If you make an extreme emotionally evocative and partly derogatory post that makes no real attempt at stopping the controversy the wars begin.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Remedy4389 wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

My favorite part was how it went ignored by all the posters it was relevant to. guys.

How are they supposed to get into a major internets argument over it though?!?!

It's something we snicker at quite often at our FLGS. If you make a reasoned, well thought out post, intended to end debate amicably it goes ignored for pages. If you make an extreme emotionally evocative and partly derogatory post that makes no real attempt at stopping the controversy the wars begin.

Goatboy was just explaining how the list worked, but we knew that already. The Centstar killed things while the rest of the army worked on objectives and the secondary missions. The difference between him and the rest of the centstars was his play. Nick is one of the best players in the country and proved it again here.

I will say that the LVO really favored MSU armies. If you look and Nick's and Sean's armies they have a ton of units.

I heard a rumor there is a bugger on the end of krootman's finger in his avatar... Don't know if it's true but anyways good job on Goat for setting the record straight.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Remedy4389 wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Cents dropped with Mephiston as he is in Artificer armor and can ride in the pod.

Lysander stayed with the Command squad to protect them and get FNP from the Sang Initiate in there.

While yes the list used Centurions as the heavy lifting killing unit - Lysander didn't join up with it. Nick's list used 2 heavy hammers that armies tried to deal with when most of the time - killing the scouts would have been a better idea. Also the scouts - being Sentinels of Terra would hit a lot better at close range with the TWL ability. This made them a better choice then Marines etc as they were cheaper.

The list was designed to have lose able big threats and still be able to win the secondary missions and hold objectives. It is a massed MSU concept with 1 extreme killing unit (Cents) and one surgical unit - Melta command squad with Lysander. Meph being a lvl 3 psyker can get ahold of perfect timing and prescience - causing the Cents to be a lot more effective at all parts of the game.

The Crazy thing is the regular Devastators were rocking it as people forgot they had Tank Hunting. They did a great job of removing vehicle threats and walking on the board edge and snap firing their way into everyone's hearts.

But oh well - I play Nick too much and know - kill the damned scouts.

Very informative post, thanks for that!

My favorite part was how it went ignored by all the posters it was relevant to. guys.

How are they supposed to get into a major internets argument over it though?!?!

It's something we snicker at quite often at our FLGS. If you make a reasoned, well thought out post, intended to end debate amicably it goes ignored for pages. If you make an extreme emotionally evocative and partly derogatory post that makes no real attempt at stopping the controversy the wars begin.

Goatboy was just explaining how the list worked, but we knew that already. The Centstar killed things while the rest of the army worked on objectives and the secondary missions. The difference between him and the rest of the centstars was his play. Nick is one of the best players in the country and proved it again here.

I will say that the LVO really favored MSU armies. If you look and Nick's and Sean's armies they have a ton of units.

If it were true that everyone already knew how the list worked there would have been no need for Goatboy to jump in and explain. It was the very fact that how Nick played the list was being misconstrued that prompted such a post from Goatboy in the first place. Anyway, I digress and have no real stake in any of this since I was unable to attend the LVO. I'm just here to watch the

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I heard a rumor there is a bugger on the end of krootman's finger in his avatar... Don't know if it's true but anyways good job on Goat for setting the record straight.

DONT BE SO JUDGMENTAL!

I was just kidding you - I know you're a pretty sincere guy.

All this talk about practice games... I often go to GT's with less then 3 practice games for the event. I will be playing at adepticon with necrons pure for the first time and adepticon will be my first tournament in 7th edition and like my 3rd actual game on the table top starting game 1. Just pointing out that list building is still a very big part of winning events. Even with all the crazy builds I think I have a list that puts me in the top 32 at the minimum. Unless the dice gods truely curse me! Also my list will feature 0 allies. Codex pure with no 2nd source!

 Tomb King wrote:
All this talk about practice games... I often go to GT's with less then 3 practice games for the event. I will be playing at adepticon with necrons pure for the first time and adepticon will be my first tournament in 7th edition and like my 3rd actual game on the table top starting game 1. Just pointing out that list building is still a very big part of winning events. Even with all the crazy builds I think I have a list that puts me in the top 32 at the minimum. Unless the dice gods truely curse me! Also my list will feature 0 allies. Codex pure with no 2nd source!

You must be a better player then me, because I need lots of practice games to do well. Adepticon champs is so different I think most people just winging it.

List building is still important and a big part of this game, however it won't carry you like it could in 5th and even 6th

 Tomb King wrote:
All this talk about practice games... I often go to GT's with less then 3 practice games for the event. I will be playing at adepticon with necrons pure for the first time and adepticon will be my first tournament in 7th edition and like my 3rd actual game on the table top starting game 1. Just pointing out that list building is still a very big part of winning events. Even with all the crazy builds I think I have a list that puts me in the top 32 at the minimum. Unless the dice gods truely curse me! Also my list will feature 0 allies. Codex pure with no 2nd source!

So your practice games on Vassel don't count?

Remedy4389 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
All this talk about practice games... I often go to GT's with less then 3 practice games for the event. I will be playing at adepticon with necrons pure for the first time and adepticon will be my first tournament in 7th edition and like my 3rd actual game on the table top starting game 1. Just pointing out that list building is still a very big part of winning events. Even with all the crazy builds I think I have a list that puts me in the top 32 at the minimum. Unless the dice gods truely curse me! Also my list will feature 0 allies. Codex pure with no 2nd source!

So your practice games on Vassel don't count?

I had 3 or 4 vassal games. They count for overall view of the board but playing on the table top is a whole different beast. You dont get that top down view that vassal affords you. In addition, the terrain is more of a issue on the table top. Vassal is good for testing the army out via rolling the dice and how certain units handle combat etc...

krootman. wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
All this talk about practice games... I often go to GT's with less then 3 practice games for the event. I will be playing at adepticon with necrons pure for the first time and adepticon will be my first tournament in 7th edition and like my 3rd actual game on the table top starting game 1. Just pointing out that list building is still a very big part of winning events. Even with all the crazy builds I think I have a list that puts me in the top 32 at the minimum. Unless the dice gods truely curse me! Also my list will feature 0 allies. Codex pure with no 2nd source!

You must be a better player then me, because I need lots of practice games to do well. Adepticon champs is so different I think most people just winging it.

List building is still important and a big part of this game, however it won't carry you like it could in 5th and even 6th

I actually think list building is more important then it ever was in 5th or 6th edition. As mentioned before it is harder to account for all the various builds out there. You need to build a list that can handle Grimstars, Adlance, centstar, wave serpent spam, MC spam, and Bikewolf stars. Just to name a couple. You all need to be able to take maelstrom objectives. The current meta and format has really killed some of the GEQ armies out there as people seek more resilient/fast moving troops.

Is there a place to see the lists other than the Top 8?

 Tomb King wrote:


I actually think list building is more important then it ever was in 5th or 6th edition. As mentioned before it is harder to account for all the various builds out there. You need to build a list that can handle Grimstars, Adlance, centstar, wave serpent spam, MC spam, and Bikewolf stars. Just to name a couple. You all need to be able to take maelstrom objectives. The current meta and format has really killed some of the GEQ armies out there as people seek more resilient/fast moving troops.

I agree list builing is still a very important component, but you can no longer net list your wag to victory. Look at the top 20 lists and see how many of them are stright up spam. Alot of the lists show very creative outside the box thinking. Synergy is more important them ever. Whicj usually is a result of good testing and tactics, which is all skill based