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I'm not very familiar with the fluff for Tempestus Scions, but would there ever be an instance where they are ordered to kill allied guardsmen? Like if they were ordered to leave no witnesses for some reason?

I can't think of any examples of it, but that is more than within the scope of what they'd do, I'd say. And no, they would not question it. Scions don't question orders, no matter what they are.

Alright, just what I wanted to hear. Thanks!

 curran12 wrote:
Scions don't question orders, no matter what they are.

Well, depends on which version of the fluff you use. If you use the idiotic MT "codex" fluff then yeah, they're mindless killing robots with no ability to think independently. If you go by the earlier fluff they're the elite of the elite and able to act on their own initiative, and that presumably includes being skeptical about an order like "kill your former allies because we said so". They would obviously do it if it was a legitimate order, but there would probably be an initial "WTF is wrong with you" reaction first. If it's an order to cover up something and protect a higher officer then it's a lot less certain and probably depends on how well concealed the real motive is.

And of course the real issue with the "leave no witnesses" order is that it's hard to imagine a scenario where it comes up. The usual examples are involve chaos corruption and "normal" humans being exposed to something that only magic chaos-resistant space marines (that fall to chaos all the time) have any hope of surviving, and in that case it's done partially as an act of mercy because the poor victims are doomed to a much worse fate otherwise. But storm troopers are just well-trained humans with better toys, so they'd be just as vulnerable to corruption and a lot less expendable. So why would they even be there at all?

Presumably because Stormtroopers have proven their ability to survive being Mind-wiped repeatedly, which means that even if they start to get a bit corrupted, they can just be returned to factory settings and used again?

Just a theory, of course. No evidence to back it up.

Yes Scions would do such a thing without problem. Come to think of it even normal guardsmen would kill other guardsmen if they were ordered to. It's not something so extraordinary.

I'm pretty sure it's easier to mind wipe the Tempestus Scions because often there will be fewer tempestus scions per battlefield than the Guardsmen. Although the scions are also far better trained, and has proven themselves to be more loyal and more disciplined than an average guardsmen, so it would be a waste of resources to just murder them... Whereas an entire battlefield's worth of guardsmen could be too many to handle -- presuming they are not killed to a man. And even then, it'd depend on who the lone guardsman is, because, unless said guard is Sly Marbo or some one like that, he or she would probably be seen as just another cannon fodder unworthy of salvaging.

epronovost wrote:
Yes Scions would do such a thing without problem. Come to think of it even normal guardsmen would kill other guardsmen if they were ordered to. It's not something so extraordinary.

yeah it's the IoM, if they say "shoot that guy in the back" it happens.

The Storm Wing dataslate has Clan Vurgaan Iron Hands sent to wipe out an Imperial Guard command centre after "the presence of a shape-shifting xenos entity is confirmed in the command structure of the Vostroyan 9th". The same kind of thing would probably be done by Scions.

 Peregrine wrote:
And of course the real issue with the "leave no witnesses" order is that it's hard to imagine a scenario where it comes up. The usual examples are involve chaos corruption and "normal" humans being exposed to something that only magic chaos-resistant space marines (that fall to chaos all the time) have any hope of surviving, and in that case it's done partially as an act of mercy because the poor victims are doomed to a much worse fate otherwise. But storm troopers are just well-trained humans with better toys, so they'd be just as vulnerable to corruption and a lot less expendable. So why would they even be there at all?

Not all corruption is due to aliens or Chaos, nor is it always contagious on the battlefield. Just look at the history of our own world - no xenos or Chaotic influence (we think ), yet there are countless examples of "loyalty purges" and suchlike. The situation would be even worse in a dystopian dictatorship like the Imperium. A regiment's loyalty might become a hotbed of revolutionary thought after exposure to such anti-Imperial concepts as "freedom", "tolerance", or "the rule of law", its loyalty to their commander (who may harbour anti-Imperial sentiments or be planning a coup) may be perceived as greater than their loyalty to the Imperium, etc. In addition, Tau and Dark Eldar use bribery, propaganda, etc, to manipulate the loyalty of Imperial citizens and soldiers. Troops sent in to wipe them out are unlikely to be turned during a short and vicious operation - it's not like the two sides are going to sit down for a political debate halfway through the firefight.
Anyway. The Imperium often needs to wipe out their own citizens or soldiers. It's best to have an outside agency do that. The fluff explicitly mentions that Inquisitors use their own private force instead of requisitioning troops from the very body that they may be investigating. If a non-Inquisitor needs to perform an atrocity and don't want to rely on the local PDF or a nearby Imperial Guard regiment, it makes sense to turn to the scions - they're like the Waffen-SS in that they are utterly loyal and completely independent of the regular army command structure. Indeed, like the regular SS they're probably the go-to people when you want to commit awful atrocities.

 Peregrine wrote:
Well, depends on which version of the fluff you use. If you use the idiotic MT "codex" fluff then yeah, they're mindless killing robots with no ability to think independently.

Yeah. Did Not Want. At all. Awful fluff, and awfully few actual rules.

EDIT: corrected a few grammatical errors. Restructured text.

Where can I learn more about the Tempestus? I can't seem to find anything about them.

You can read their codex Millitarum Tempestus (I don't know if it's still for sell thought) you csn also find some fluff about them in Shield of Baal too I think. The codex fluff was pretty good in my opinion and has the advantage of really covering the Scion's training from their recruitment to their deployment in missions.

 Smitty wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the fluff for Tempestus Scions, but would there ever be an instance where they are ordered to kill allied guardsmen? Like if they were ordered to leave no witnesses for some reason?

It's possible, don't have an immediate reason that springs to mind, but their own book has them doing it to each other, so why not.

That said, the MT book read like bad harry potter torture porn, so maybe it's best not to reference it.

@Vaktathi

We do refer the Space Marines Codex when we talk about their creation, selection and training and it does mention terrible casualties in the children send to become Space Marines (probably even more if you consider those who died because of organ failures and mutations or insanity cause by those augmentation). Plus, I don't really get the magic and porn part of your analogie (even though we can safely guess many of those kids are sexualy abused by their teachers, but so are many guardsmen or young boy who are selected to become Space Marines. It's a sad reality of life.)

I do understand that some people don't like explicit mention of children and teenagers beeing mistreated, killed or suffering. but I do sense a lot of touble standards when it comes to Scions. It's ok for kids to suffer and die to become good Space Marines or even guardsmen, but not Scions or Sisters? It still is a good reference for their fluff, but you can dislike it if you want.

I'm not really so much upset about the subject matter as the way it was written.

It feels like it's attempting to be extreme for its own sake, brutality just for brutality, all mixed up with a whole slew of new faux-latin and simply terrible quality writing.

Brutality and grim-darkness is great, it's what makes the 40k universe tick. But the way the MT book was written, the combination of bad writing, awful faux-latin, and simply some bad concepts, combine to make the MT book an awful mess I think.

It's like the difference between say, "Saving Private Ryan" or "Dredd", and something like "Hostel". The brutality in the former two accents the subject matter and colors the setting, while in the latter it simply *is* the subject matter, in and of itself, and that just doesn't work as well, especially after the first watching/reading.

epronovost wrote:
@Vaktathi

We do refer the Space Marines Codex when we talk about their creation, selection and training and it does mention terrible casualties in the children send to become Space Marines (probably even more if you consider those who died because of organ failures and mutations or insanity cause by those augmentation). Plus, I don't really get the magic and porn part of your analogie (even though we can safely guess many of those kids are sexualy abused by their teachers, but so are many guardsmen or young boy who are selected to become Space Marines. It's a sad reality of life.)

I do understand that some people don't like explicit mention of children and teenagers beeing mistreated, killed or suffering. but I do sense a lot of touble standards when it comes to Scions. It's ok for kids to suffer and die to become good Space Marines or even guardsmen, but not Scions or Sisters? It still is a good reference for their fluff, but you can dislike it if you want.

Ehm, that's not what's meant by a term like "bolter-porn". It's... exceedingly unlikely that initiates to a Space Marine Chapter are sexually abused by the trainers, because Space Marines don't have sex drives. Of any kind. That's all hypno-indoctrinated out of them. Guardsmen likewise, since most of them don't go into the military as children (Cadians being a notable exception), but as young adults. Based on what we know of the Sisters, it's heavily implied that they're virginal going into the Sisterhood, and remain that way the rest of their lives.

@Psienesis

I would disagree on the mistreatment of Space Marines initiate. Sexual abuse aren't necessarly linked to sex itself. A full body search handle in a rough and demeaning way is a sexual agression. Most of it would be lnked to Space Marines just beeing incensitive (or ignorant of the issue if you prefer) or willfully cruel to test their recruitment stock. Most sexual agression aren't motivated by sex either. They are acts of power design to make suffer, humiliate or assert dominance. That's why telling victims to dress more prudely is completly innefective and demeaning for them.

It's true that most guard regiment don't recruit children, the most well known of them all do: Catashans and Cadians (I think Vostroyans and Mordians too, but I am not sure).

A full body search handle in a rough and demeaning way is a sexual agression

Um, no? That's not the point or purpose of a body-cavity search. There's an actual end goal there that has nothing to do with domination, power or sexual aggression.

That's subjective to the individual circumstanced of the search, really.

Anyway, the Guard don't recruit Catachan children. Catachan produces Guard children.

epronovost wrote:
@Psienesis
It's true that most guard regiment don't recruit children, the most well known of them all do: Catashans and Cadians (I think Vostroyans and Mordians too, but I am not sure).

The Vostroyans conscript the firstborn of every family and train them, if I'm not mistaken. No idea what the Mordians do though.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Smitty wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the fluff for Tempestus Scions, but would there ever be an instance where they are ordered to kill allied guardsmen? Like if they were ordered to leave no witnesses for some reason?

It's possible, don't have an immediate reason that springs to mind, but their own book has them doing it to each other, so why not.

That's fascinating, I'll have to look into that.



Also, I'm going to flat out say this: the reason I was wondering about this is because after I graduate from college, I plan on making an animation of Scions engaging in combat with Kasrkin and I wanted to find a fluffy reason for it.

The Vostroyans conscript the firstborn of every family and train them, if I'm not mistaken. No idea what the Mordians do though.

Being the "first born" is not a statement of your age, just the order of your birth.

If you're 40 years old, and have 10 younger siblings, you are still the "first born" of your parents, and always will be.