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I know people on DakkaDakka are pretty much GW fans, and primarily focus upon their LotR license.

But what if another line of miniatures was available that allowed for having what were essentially they same forces(obviously not called the same thing), but was just as, or better quality, and less expensive?

Currently, only Games Workshop, and Mithril Miniatures produce "official" Lord of the Rings/Middle-earth miniatures.

The Mithril line is complete in terms of playing the central forces (Orcs, Gondor, Mordor, Rohan, and Isengard) with a small selection of the Southron and Easterling Nations (They have said that they worry about being sued by GW if they produce a more complete line).

So, you could play the SBG (or other rules, but the SBG is probably among the better rules for large scale fantasy skirmish, even though some of its assumptions are flawed - such as how it treats spears. Spears only work in depth with hundreds of men, not a few to dozens... Just as one example) using these other figures, and it would save you a few $$$, £££, or, €€€.

There are also the "non-official" lines, such as Grendel, or Black Tree Design, or the Grenadier figures that are all awesome (I am more partial to the Grenadier personally, but I still bitch to the high heavens about Elves with single-edged "crooked swords/spears”).

And for just Orcs and Elves, the top of the Line is Thunderbolt Mountain, even though Tom's line is not very complete (something I am working to correct).

So.... To get back to the original question, and anther questions:

1) Would you consider using other miniatures?

2) If not, why?

3) If you had the ability to suggest, or direct the appearance of Middle-earth proxies, or official miniatures, what would you be looking for in Middle-earth miniatures?

MB

While I know you're not a fan, I like the aesthetic that Jackson/WETA used for Middle-Earth (for the most part). Having said that, I've got a lot of Historicals that will be doing various levels of double-duty for LotR figures as well as their "native" use (once I assemble and paint them). I also have quite a few RBG figures that fit nicely into my own personal interpretation of Middle-Earth - again, regardless of how "right" or "wrong" someone like yourself might see them. What this does mean is that I'd certainly be open to alternate figures, though TBM is not exactly "cheap" at $4 for a foot figure for those of us building units and armies.

I like the RBG minis.

Tre is exceptionally talented.

I don't like the style of his Goblins and Orcs, but they are still technical masterpieces.

His humans and other "Human-like" figures are beautiful (I especially like his Dwarves).

And... I like most of the Weta Designs for the movies. I just don't really consider them as Middle-earth, and object to the sizable liberties he took in interpretations.

But... I am in the process of sculpting a line of figures that would supplement TBM's lines, and provide figures for Middle-earth games, even if I cannot call them that, directly (Starting with the various Tribes of Orcs, as there were many, especially within Mordor itself - Morgai, Lugbúrz, Morgul, Durthan, Udun, Gorgoroth, .... Maybe eight or nine from Mordor alone... And probably near that for the Hithaeglir).

I would like to eventually do something in plastics, but I hate planning for the undercuts... I have a program that automatically takes ANY 3D model and removes the undercuts from any angle (allowing you to rotate the model until you find the angle that gives the least number of undercut sections)... But my tendency is to go with Multi-part plastics to avoid this.

And Chainmail is simply the worst to do in plastic and have it turn out OK.

But.... I think that the TBM stuff would get cheaper if Tom sold more of it, which he would probably do if the lines were completed and more forces were available.

MB

Tre's dwarves are my favourites of the line. His elves have a nice Sylvan look to them, but there are relatively few of them for my taste. The Wargames Factory Orcs, while not beautiful models are very usable, especially for a horde of rabble. And above all, they're cheap. I'm not sure that going with too wide a variety of orcs is the best starting place. One tribe - sure, but more than one and you start to cannibalise your own sales unless you got for very distinct looks - to use some LotR Fimlic examples - Moria Goblins, Uruk-Hai, Mordor Orcs and "Morannon" Orcs. - But even then there would be an element of self-cannibalism.

I am certainly open to using other models. While I'm unlikely to go outside GW for Uruks, Elves, Dwarves or Easterlings (as I just love their true-to-film aesthetics), I have plans for using a lot of Wargames Factory stuff to bulk out various forces. Vikings for some Dunlendings, Saxons for Rohirrim militia, unarmoured Dark Ages stuff for Laketown milita after Smaug's attack and of course their Orcs, which will be a used for Gundabad Orcs and Mordor Uruks amongst other things.

Reaper Bones also has a bit to offer. I recently picked up some character models to use as counts-as for some of the insanely expensive Hobbit characters, and once B2 hits retail, there's a Troll coming that scales rather nicely that I may buy a few of.

I am currently looking for anything that can fill in for Khandish (I've looked at various Samurai, but most are just a bit too ornate/armoured), and I'm wondering if the Perry Bows and Bill or Foot Knights can be Dol Amroth MAA with some detail sculpting. Do the Perries ever sell individual sprues?

I wouldn't discount the RBG Dwarves. Particularly for adventurers, small clans and so forth. This guy fits in perfectly with the GW figures as a Dwarf King, for example
http://red-box-games.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16&products_id=34

Oh, I do love most of the Red Box stuff, the killer is that shipping to the UK typically costs as much as the mini. Still less than GW, but over my personal limits of cost per mini. If he had a UK stockist, I'd buy a bunch of it.

 Paradigm wrote:
I am certainly open to using other models. While I'm unlikely to go outside GW for Uruks, Elves, Dwarves or Easterlings (as I just love their true-to-film aesthetics), I have plans for using a lot of Wargames Factory stuff to bulk out various forces. Vikings for some Dunlendings, Saxons for Rohirrim militia, unarmoured Dark Ages stuff for Laketown milita after Smaug's attack and of course their Orcs, which will be a used for Gundabad Orcs and Mordor Uruks amongst other things.

Reaper Bones also has a bit to offer. I recently picked up some character models to use as counts-as for some of the insanely expensive Hobbit characters, and once B2 hits retail, there's a Troll coming that scales rather nicely that I may buy a few of.

I am currently looking for anything that can fill in for Khandish (I've looked at various Samurai, but most are just a bit too ornate/armoured), and I'm wondering if the Perry Bows and Bill or Foot Knights can be Dol Amroth MAA with some detail sculpting. Do the Perries ever sell individual sprues?

For the Khandirim, I would recommend the new Plasic Mongols (I think Fireforge are the manufacturers). The GW stuff also has some of the design elements of the Perry Koreans.

I do not know if Perry Miniatures sell individual Sprues. I have not looked at their HYW stuff, though (not a period that holds any fascination to me).

The GW Khandirim are some of their miniatures that I really like, but which I struggle with (as they had no Chariots).

The Various Tribes inhabiting Khand are far down my own list of stuff to do, but the couple of sketches I have done are based more upon the Russians of pre-Ugaric and pre-Nordic migrations of the Rus from Finland and Sweden. This fits more in line with the term "Variag."

But the first stuff I plan to do after getting the Orcs/Goblins sorted out are post Kin-Strife Gondorians, including the fiefs. This would allow me to do the early Éotheod as well (The Northmen/Foradan of Rhovanion).

But I am anxious to do some dwarves as well.

MB

Hmm, not sure about the foot troops, but the Fireforge Mounted Mongols would certainly mesh well enough with the metal GW ones I have. Thanks for pointing them out.

I Iooked closer at the Perry stuff, the sprue I'd want for Dol Amroth Pikemen (the Foot Knights from the HYW English set) isn't available on its own. However, at about £17 a box from discount retailers (36 minis a box), I am sure I could learn to like the archers in the set, perhaps for use in a Dale or Rohan army with a few modifications.

I use plenty of non GW miniatures already. Gripping Beast Vikings for Dunlendings, Ebob miniatures for Arnor and Fiefdoms, a few Thunderbolt Mountain elves here and there.

Not opposed to it all, although I generally try to find miniatures I feel fit the existing LotR move aesthetic as that has the most expansive range.

You could easily get the foot Knights then buy their Nagae-Yari and convert them all up to have pikes, that would look pretty amazing I think.

You get 80 of the damn things too so you would never run out either

Turns out a) there's an ebay store selling singles of Perry sprues and b) they do a box of just Foot Knights, which look to have enough 2-handed polearms in that pike conversions shouldn't be to hard. They are War of the Roses rather than HYW, but fit the heavy armour look, so I reckon a box of these should get me something workable.



I shall of course post pics if and when I get around to it.

Yeah those are the chaps I am talking about What will you use to make pikes ?

Probably the same paperclip haft and plasticard head method Iusedfor my Iron Hill Dwarves. Although since you pointed out the Perrys sell a pack of pikes for 10p a piece, I might just grab those to save time.

I might also try and make press moulds of some Swan Knight heads and shields and see if I can't throw together a few of those as well.

Just came across these by accident, thought they might be a better fit for your Men at arms

http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=4070

eBob sells some great Dol Amroth heads, MUch less overblown than the official metal SKoDA heads.

I would definitely be interested in any and all LOTR miniatures. I've looked at Mithril and I think the technical skill in the sculpts isn't where I want it to be, even though I do appreciate that many are very close to book descriptions.

I have a pile of RBG stuff, and I freaking love his Goblins. I think the big noses and so on make them perhaps decent Goblin scouts from LOTR (some are described that way) and in any case I just love the character of the sculpts to bits. I'm currently getting ready to paint up some of his Aenglish as Minas Tirith even though I imagined them more "dark ages"-y.

What I would really like would be some brooding figures for Turin and his outlaws, and other heroes from that time. Some great potential there for some atmospheric miniatures.

 Da Boss wrote:
I would definitely be interested in any and all LOTR miniatures. I've looked at Mithril and I think the technical skill in the sculpts isn't where I want it to be, even though I do appreciate that many are very close to book descriptions.

I have a pile of RBG stuff, and I freaking love his Goblins. I think the big noses and so on make them perhaps decent Goblin scouts from LOTR (some are described that way) and in any case I just love the character of the sculpts to bits. I'm currently getting ready to paint up some of his Aenglish as Minas Tirith even though I imagined them more "dark ages"-y.

What I would really like would be some brooding figures for Turin and his outlaws, and other heroes from that time. Some great potential there for some atmospheric miniatures.

For the Lugbúrz and Morgai Scouts, the big noses are described as flat and broad, and not pointy.

But.....

That is only for the Lugbúrz and Morgai Scouts.

It could very well be that Durthang, Udun, Or the many Orc Tribes of the Hithaeglir have bred Orc/Goblin scouts/trackers with great big long noses.

What I do know is that they represent something closer to Tolkien's stated description of Orcs than Peter Jackson's.

Jackson's look cool as all hell.

But they don't look at all like what Tolkien described.

What I find interesting here, is that GW did get the Dunlenings correct.

They, and the other "Hill Men," or "Dark Men" of Middle-earth are derived from the Norse.

One of the things that is important about Middle-earth is the words used to describe things, and that they all converge back to Saxon, Germanic, and Nordic Languages for the Men, and Ugric or Finnish for the Elve's (with a few other more tangential northern, but obscure languages).

And, by the descriptions of Christopher Tolkien, and Tom Shippey, where the languages don't converge is to Gallic, French, Latin, Greek, or Irish (except for one group of "Dark Men" - such as the Oath Breakers of Early Gondor). Welsh is a part of some of the Hill Men, and non-Edain peoples, mostly in Northern Rhovanion, like Lake Town.

But.....

Footsore miniatures.
Gripping Beast.
Old Glory
Fireforge.

And a few other lines, have terrific Dark Ages lines that fit extremely well with Middle-earth.

Particularly the Footsore and Gripping Beast Welsh/Picts.

These lines are probably the most appropriate lines for the Support Troops for Gondor, or for places like Arthedain, and Cardolan Fiefs, or Dorwinion and Early Dale (before the founding of Lake Town).

For the core troops of Gondor, Arnor, or the Successor Kingdoms of Arnor (Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhuduar) there are really no appropriate troops available.

I am tempted to do them first, rather than support troops.

I have a helmet and shield already sculpted for the Mid-3rd Age Gondor (approximately 1700 - 2000, which is the period of the post-Kin-Strife to the final defeat of the Wainriders).

But the main drawback has been the difficulty of sculpting chainmail with the digital sculpting software I am using (Mudbox - I wish like hell I had ZBrush I would be able to do chainmail with little problem).

I may just resort to physical media to do the armor. I have been told I am good at doing chainmail.

As I have said.... I do have a lot of the GW LotR figures, but even though I think they are gorgeous, I would like to see more appropriate miniatures.

MB




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I completely know what you mean by Mithril.

They are some beautiful miniatures, but they have a very subtle amount of detail, which demands a lot of skill in painting properly.

Their Orcs are closer to Tolkien's description than GW's, but they are still at variance due to the length of their legs, and the severity of their facial features.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:

Lugbúrz and Gorgoroth Orcs, not Lugbúrz and Morgai.

Whippersnappers, I remember when Mithril minis were all there were for Middle Earth gaming. Of course now Prince August isn't allowed to say that they are for gaming as GW has the rights for gaming miniatures. That said, I really liked how they tried to stay as close as possible to Tolkien's own descriptions and even any available artwork by the Professor.

I wish they were still as readily available, I lost a bunch when I moved out of my parent's 20 years ago.

I do however like GW's Rohirrim and I would suggest Wargame Factory's Orcs as suitable for Tolkien's ME, not Sir Peter's, as they seem very close to Angus McBride's artwork for the MERPs gaming series by Iron Crown Enterprises. IMHO that was some of the most iconic ME artwork available at the time. Yes I certainly say that I liked his work far and above the Hildebrant's, Howe, and Lee. I wish that Elmore and or Caldwell had done some work on the subject.

You were only two years old when I started gaming.

What is this "whippersnappers" stuff?

I think I am close to a dozen years older, but would kill to be a "whippersnapper" again.

That said....

McBride's stuff was the artwork for both the basis of the Mithril minis, and based upon the few existing miniatures at the time (basically around 1986/87). Mithril got their license around 1985, but it took a while to begin producing products.

Mithril is also responsible for pushing the scales of miniatures upward, as Bryan Ansell saw them and decided that a more "heroic" scale would be more "imposing."

The logic is flawed, but the result was more sales.

I like McBride's work, but found that other than the Orcs, it was too Sword & Sorcery (Gondorians in loin cloths, as an example).

John Howë commented upon this, as he observed that his earlier work on Middle-earth was also too "Swords & Sorcery," until, that is, he met Christopher Tolkien (since they both live in France) who explained to him that Middle-earth was more like our own world, which was clearly lacking in muscular men with swords, dressed in loincloths, slashing their way through a field of monsters. Nor did Middle-earth have warriors with baroque filigreed armor.

If you have bought any of John Howë's portfolios, you can see the sudden change that took place roughly five years before the movies were made.

I should have some of my own artwork, for the upcoming Orcs produced shortly.

As far as artwork goes, though. It is a pity that Tom Meier does not produce 2D artwork.

His vision of Middle-earth is perhaps the best in existence.

But it is difficult to get him to actually produce much along that line,

MB

xraytango wrote:
Whippersnappers, I remember when Mithril minis were all there were for Middle Earth gaming. Of course now Prince August isn't allowed to say that they are for gaming as GW has the rights for gaming miniatures. That said, I really liked how they tried to stay as close as possible to Tolkien's own descriptions and even any available artwork by the Professor.

Mithril Miniatures? How about the original line of LotR figures from GW that predate those newfangled Mithril Miniatures? Sadly I traded away most of mine back in the 1990s - and actually got ripped off on that trade. Silly me, but a good life lesson. Or failing that, I had a large (for the time) collection of Minifigs from the mid-late 1970's, including many Not-LotR miniatures from the "Mythical Earth" line - I only have a few left, and even then aren't sure where most of them are today.

 Azazelx wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Whippersnappers, I remember when Mithril minis were all there were for Middle Earth gaming. Of course now Prince August isn't allowed to say that they are for gaming as GW has the rights for gaming miniatures. That said, I really liked how they tried to stay as close as possible to Tolkien's own descriptions and even any available artwork by the Professor.

Mithril Miniatures? How about the original line of LotR figures from GW that predate those newfangled Mithril Miniatures? Sadly I traded away most of mine back in the 1990s - and actually got ripped off on that trade. Silly me, but a good life lesson. Or failing that, I had a large (for the time) collection of Minifigs from the mid-late 1970's, including many Not-LotR miniatures from the "Mythical Earth" line - I only have a few left, and even then aren't sure where most of them are today.

Or How about the ORIGINAL Lord of the Rings miniatures from Heritage Elan Merchandising from 1978/79?

Those are being produced again by a guy in Texas (at least I think he's in Texas).

He is also discussing producing Ral Partha's Fantasy Collector Series Elves, Dwarves, and Goblins.

The Minfigs pre-date the Heritage line by four years.

I imagine that, if the sculptors at Minifigs had known about Green-stuff (first used by Ral Partha in 1978, as well, and QUICKLY spread to other companies) that Minifig's Mythical Earth line would still be remembered as one of the best Middle-earth lines out there.

All of Minifigs 1970's era lines had some of the most Etheric and mysterious atmospheres to them ever.

Their World of Greyhawk, and Valley of the Four Wind lines (of which the Offcial Valley of the Four Winds Army used to be at the Hammersmith Dalling Road GW store).

Anyway... I FINALLY have the base-meshes for all of my Goblins Completed.

And Three of them are basically completed to the final status ready to print the masters (at which point I will need to find a caster. I have two in mind, but will probably wind up having Reaper do it).

I'll post some previews in the next day or so.

MB

While my Minifigs have mostly been lost to the winds of apathy, breakage and so forth, it wouldn't be so bad if I could replace them. Since they were the first miniatures I ever owned, they have a special nostalgic value to me, and even though they look crude by today's standards, I'd gladly buy them again. Sadly, the current incanation of Minifigs only seem to sell two of the Mythical Earth figures - the Wizard and an Orc (that I never owned). The wizard is actually a variant on the one I had (two of). The one shown on their site has more of a staff, while the one I had only had half of the staff, so effectively more of a wand. I wish I knew what happened to that figure, painted in Humbrol enamel grey.

 Azazelx wrote:
While my Minifigs have mostly been lost to the winds of apathy, breakage and so forth, it wouldn't be so bad if I could replace them. Since they were the first miniatures I ever owned, they have a special nostalgic value to me, and even though they look crude by today's standards, I'd gladly buy them again. Sadly, the current incanation of Minifigs only seem to sell two of the Mythical Earth figures - the Wizard and an Orc (that I never owned). The wizard is actually a variant on the one I had (two of). The one shown on their site has more of a staff, while the one I had only had half of the staff, so effectively more of a wand. I wish I knew what happened to that figure, painted in Humbrol enamel grey.

I think the guy who is doing the Heritage stuff is trying to get the Minifigs Mythical Earth line as well.

He's sort of like I am, in that regard:

All about Middle-earth.

With that said... here are the Test Renders of the Base-Meshes (to which clothing and armor will be added later)

Those do look pretty great, and to be honest I think (pending armour) that they'd fit alongside the GW Orcs (not Goblins) as Trackers or something.

Out of interest, what are you basing the bows off? They seem to be a bit too uniform and neat for something Orcs would have.

It should be pointed out that there is very little surface anatomy detail on these (muscles straining or relaxing, hand and feet detail anatomy, or veins in the arms or feet).

The clothing/armor and props (quiver, knife, belt(s), etc.) will be added as an additional base-mesh, making it much easier to swap out items on any particular sculpt to create variants, without having to re-sculpt the entire mini.

I have not added bases yet, as I am still trying to decide if they are doing to have cast-on bases, or if I will just have a peg coming out of each foot, to allow for flush basing on any material (which helps me a lot, since based miniatures that are not flush with the ground DRIVE ME F***ING CRAZY)

Should I wait to create a separate thread with these until I have the Warriors finished, and the Archers completed as well (and maybe the command groups)?

I am planning to do a Kickstarter in the late-Spring or early-Summer.

It would be nice if someone could tease the people over at The Miniatures Page with these (since I will not abase myself before Bill).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Those do look pretty great, and to be honest I think (pending armour) that they'd fit alongside the GW Orcs (not Goblins) as Trackers or something.

Out of interest, what are you basing the bows off? They seem to be a bit too uniform and neat for something Orcs would have.

They are based off Mongol and Korean Bows (which are also the Bows adopted by the Chinese post-Mongol conquest).

If you look at the Thunderbolt Mountain Great-Goblins, you will see that they are very basic, but relatively clear weapons and armor, which looks like an Eastern European/Hunnic to Mongolian style.

Since I am a total slave to Tolkien, and he said that the Orcs/Goblins were skilled, and functional craftsmen, who did not create overly ornate weapons or tools/equipment, but that their tools and creations were very fit for the job.... I have gone with their being basically fit craftsmen (craftsorcs?) who do not produce sub-par equipment. It is just very basic and functional.... Tolkien said that the Orcs were dirty, not poor craftsmen.

While I appreciate the look of other interpretations of Orcs and Goblins which portray them as incapable of making anything with any skill, I think it more fitting for the Jacksonian Interpretation of Orcs, which is really not the Middle-earth that Tolkien created (See Christopher Tolkien's interview on the subject).

Over the weekend, I should be finishing my unit for this months Middle-earth/Lord of the Rings painting challenge (a unit of Thunderbolt Mountain Greater-Goblins), and you will see how they fit in as Smaller Orcs/Goblins by comparison with the unit I am doing that has the same design aesthetic as these.

Also, remember you are seeing these things about 5x their eventual size. As a 30mm miniature (which will only measure about 25mm - 27mm - they are also meant to be used as the Greater Goblins for the Old Ral Partha Fantasy Collector's Edition Goblins, for which the Great Goblins were far too "organized"... and too few... They looked like Roman Orcs, and even eventually became such in the 1990's) they will be pretty small (roughly dwarf sized - maybe slightly larger than a dwarf).

MB

They look nice so far. Are you planning to release these through TBM or with your own enterprise?

As far as Jackson goes, the arms and armour used by the orcs is crude, but it certainly gets the job done. Most of the orcs seen are essentially rabble, clearly using whatever has come to hand. On the other hand, the various Uruks and more organised Orcs (across both trilogies) have gear that fits that description quite well - Basic, functional, fit for purpose - hardly sub-par stuff.

 Azazelx wrote:
They look nice so far. Are you planning to release these through TBM or with your own enterprise?

As far as Jackson goes, the arms and armour used by the orcs is crude, but it certainly gets the job done. Most of the orcs seen are essentially rabble, clearly using whatever has come to hand. On the other hand, the various Uruks and more organised Orcs (across both trilogies) have gear that fits that description quite well - Basic, functional, fit for purpose - hardly sub-par stuff.

l

I need to contact Tom Meier again about what might be possible.

He might want to limit Thunderbolt Mountain to exclusively his own stuff.

My preference would be to have them released through TBM, as that would increase the sales of gaming miniatures for Tom (as this would finally produce the first complete army for his work - something that has been greatly desired by many).

But if that cannot happen, then I would at least like to work out a deal so that they can be advertised as official supplementary troops for his work.

I also think that as I get the human (Early to late Gondorian and Arnorian, Foradan Rhovanion - the ancestors of the Éotheod - and early Éotheod, Wainriders), and Dwarven troops done that he would see increased sales as well, and might then have more enthusiasm for producing more 30mm gaming miniatures. I would prefer to see him finish out, and then extend, the Elves, as without ZBrush I would struggle greatly to reproduce Elves that matched his.

But... If I have to go it completely alone, then I will do so. It would not be the first time I made miniatures for sale.

MB