Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't really see Alpharius or Omegon desiring reign or empire. It seems like their whole schtick is teaching their dudes why they don't need rulers.

 ImAGeek wrote:

I think everyone has forgotten their original purpose yeah, and they've just splintered into groups doing their own thing.

I don't think they've 'forgotten' anything - there's just a difference in opinions, and that's apparently carried forward 10K years.

 ImAGeek wrote:

It already seems to be starting in the 30k stuff. It's the trouble with a legion that values independence and free thinking, and their ways of warfare, deception, lies etc. probably quite easy to lose sight of an overall aim in a legion like that. Too clever for their own good I think.

And now you're stealing my lines!

My problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells.

Please look at the context in which I used the word Empire. It was just a phrase, i don't mean an actual empire as a form of government, i mean that his legion is so far reaching and powerful that he has a controlling influence over a majority of the galaxy through the actions of his legion.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Your second scenario is exactly the case though. Particularly in 40k. The AL are a disconnected group of cells doing their own thing. And in 30k, they're already starting to fracture into that.

I am totally cool with that, because it makes sense. my problem arises when assertions that the alpha legion are unified and there is a grand puppet master pulling all of the strings. Like alpherius is some sort of shadow emperor and is secretly controlling an empire of terrorist cells. Despite the fact that that might be the most bad ass sentence I have ever written, it is still absurd. and as far as motivation goes, the only real presented one is he does this because Guiliman said he couldn't or was bad at being a leader. which is just petulant.

The Alpha Legion withdrew to the Galactic East during the HH, where they disappeared. One theory is that Alpharius/Omegon reigns over an Empire outside the range of the Astronomican further east than the Galactic East.

I rather like this theory. Having the Tau as quasi-geographic wall would be handy.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion

Not used mockingly, they are still loyal, or are they? (tzeench quietly chuckles, remembers our chess game, and then cries)

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion

Not used mockingly, they are still loyal, or are they? (tzeench quietly chuckles, remembers our chess game, and then cries)

I find it humorous that Creed would hypothesize on the Alpha Legion when he's already hidden a Baneblade inside each one of them.

 Shidank wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion

Not used mockingly, they are still loyal, or are they? (tzeench quietly chuckles, remembers our chess game, and then cries)

I find it humorous that Creed would hypothesize on the Alpha Legion when he's already hidden a Baneblade inside each one of them.

Keep it down, or I can't say just as planned as the baneblades kill the traitors. There's only ten Alphariuses to go

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion

Not used mockingly, they are still loyal, or are they? (tzeench quietly chuckles, remembers our chess game, and then cries)

I find it humorous that Creed would hypothesize on the Alpha Legion when he's already hidden a Baneblade inside each one of them.

Keep it down, or I can't say just as planned as the baneblades kill the traitors. There's only ten Alphariuses to go

Unless the greatest trick of all was that Creed was Alpharius...

*collective gasp*

I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.

I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.

 Therion wrote:
I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.

I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.

In the old WD IA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.

I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.

In the old WD IA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.

I suspect that is the case, a random Legionnaire is dead and Alpharius is alive to do whatever it is he is doing. Also, that quote in your bio - where is it from?

 Otto Weston wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.

I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.

In the old WD IA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.

I suspect that is the case, a random Legionnaire is dead and Alpharius is alive to do whatever it is he is doing. Also, that quote in your bio - where is it from?

Vengeful Spirit.

I'm a bit more unsure on whether it's just retconning etc, but I'm definitely not going to say that Alpharius is dead!

Alpha Legion are the answer to everything if the internet is anything to go by.

That time a squad of Space Marines(tm) disappeared to give the protagonist in a novel something to search for - Alpha Legion.
That time a planet rebelled and there wasn't any good plot reason for why? - Alpha Legion
That time we used an entire bog roll in a day? - Alpha Legion

You can blame everyone after Abnett for that overused too easy 'go to'!

 Shidank wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Plus they like to use imperial battle cries such as "For the Emperor!" in a mocking and ironic fashion

Not used mockingly, they are still loyal, or are they? (tzeench quietly chuckles, remembers our chess game, and then cries)

I find it humorous that Creed would hypothesize on the Alpha Legion when he's already hidden a Baneblade inside each one of them.

Keep it down, or I can't say just as planned as the baneblades kill the traitors. There's only ten Alphariuses to go

Unless the greatest trick of all was that Creed was Alpharius...

*collective gasp*

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

 Alpharius wrote:
You can blame everyone after Abnett for that overused too easy 'go to'!

I guess I'm not supposed to do this... but...
This.

Abnett's stuff on the Alpha Legion is poor.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
You can blame everyone after Abnett for that overused too easy 'go to'!

I guess I'm not supposed to do this... but...
This.

Abnett's stuff on the Alpha Legion is poor.

Dude, you can't just say that.

That's like asking someone why they're black. It just isn't done. You have to take some mediocre with the genius Abnett has been willing to give us. He was asked to barf exposition on a matter seldom touched on elsewhere in the lore. We can appreciate the effort.

This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!

Poly Ranger wrote:
This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!

Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.

Poly.

Go get him, FBI.

 Shidank wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!

Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.

Poly.

Go get him, FBI.

Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!

Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.

Poly.

Go get him, FBI.

Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!

No one listen to the crazy man with the gun.

Also, he has a gun.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I'm probably not up to date on all the Alpha Legion stuff, as I've only read the Legion and the older stuff, but I really loved how the story about Guilliman supposedly killing Alpharius was written. The way the GW authors formulated the story made it so obvious that the entirety of it is Alpha Legion propaganda and a smoke screen to make Alpharius' enemies stop looking for him. In the fine print it went on to say that the Ultramarines themselves have no records of any kind of any battle with the Alpha Legion on that planet or Guilliman slaying Alpharius.

I like the good old 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist' story every now and then. It's also unique among the Space Marines, be they heretic or loyal.

In the old WD IA article on the Alpha Legion, the Alpharius that got killed by Guilliman was using a sword. The modern Alpharius uses a spear. Might be a red herring, but suggests it might just have been a random Alpha Legionnaire who was ordered to volunteer.

LEGION SPOILER :

 Shidank wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
This thread has obviously been started by an Alpha Legion agent to make us think they are not responsible for all they have been responsible for! Do not underestimate the Alpha Legion - it's blatently what the OP is trying to make you do! Admit your true allegiance heretic!

Unrelated, but I think I know who the second gunman was.

Poly.

Go get him, FBI.

Ah trying to silence the truth! Know that I see you Alpharius!

No one listen to the crazy man with the gun.
Also, he has a gun.

Ahh, 'Murica and its crazy men with guns.

Careful, if you say that three times into the mirror you'll summon Dakka OT.

I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.

The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.

 Darth Bob wrote:
I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.

The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.

Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon

 dusara217 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.

The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.

Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon

The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.

They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".

Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.

I think Alpharius Omegon basically pulled the galaxy's biggest double slit experiment. The Cabal's all like, "Dude - Horus or the Emperor? You gotsta choose yer path!" And Alpharius Omegon's like "Watch me bro - I'mma electron it!"

But then they started interfering with each other and everything collapsed.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
I also think the Imperium in the 41st millennium hasn't caught on to the "too smart for their own good" thing. The Inquisition thinks they're this big Illuminati "hidden in every level of the Imperium" threat, when in reality they're probably too disorganized or low-in-number to actually pose that great of a threat to the Imperium's stability.

The irrational fear that the Alpha Legion is everywhere is both an extension on the Imperium's ignorance and the Alpha Legion's last laugh.

Considering the Alpha Legion has around 100k Legionaries, as well as however many million human operatives, they still pose a credible threat. They have cells all over the Imperium, it's just how and when they will use those cells, and also whether or not those cells remain loyal to Alpharius/ Omegon

HH3: Extermination puts them at 180,000, at Isstvan III, meaning they were the third largest Legion.

 Darth Bob wrote:



The Alpha Legion had around 100k Legionnaires (though exact numbers vary). Into the 41st Millennium, and without knowing where they stand at the end of the current Horus Heresy story line, there's really no telling how many are still alive and how much of a threat they actually possess. It's all conjecture and assumptions on the part of both the fans and the people within the fluff itself. The Alpha Legion don't benefit from the "we fled into the Warp so we don't have to worry about the ravages of time" thing that the other Traitor Legions do. It's very unlikely they've been able to maintain their numbers to that degree after 10,000 years of realspace time.

They may very well have cells all over the Imperium, but it's just as likely that they only want the Inquisition to think that's the case so that the few cells that remain intact can work to whatever ends they're working towards. Further still, it could be that the Alpha Legion is completely dispersed as anything more than disparate Warbands in the 41st millennium, but obsessive Inquisitorial authorities are convinced that they're still united. It's almost a reverse on the saying "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".

Nothing's really certain with the Alpha Legion. They might be everywhere, but they might not be anywhere. All depends on what you choose to believe.

Now, this raises a valid point. You said "had", but have we ever seen an actual SIGNIFICANT loss on the part of the Alpha Legion? Assuming they lost half their numbers in the Heresy, they still base in the material realm and would have relatively clean geneseed to create more marines.

Sewing paranoia among the inquisition is a legitimate strategy, but it doesn't mean it's a bluff.