wall of death and invisibility question?

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**Mulletdude**

rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?

No, I quoted a rule that says attacks that don't use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot. WoD has explicit permission to be fired during a time when only snap shots are allowed.

**Ignatius**

Mulletdude wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
The rule seems pretty clear to me.

1) Invisible units can only be fired at by snap shots.

2) WoD is not a snap shot.

3) WoD can not fire at Invisible unit.

If WoD is does not fire a snap shot, how is it hitting a unit that can only be targeted by snap shots?

Someone come prove me wrong.

I've got one better for you.

1) During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.

2) Template weapons cannot be shot as snap shots.

3) WoD kicks in and tells you to assign d3 hits to the unit.

It doesn't matter if the unit that is being overwatched is invisible or not. Invisibility does not confer the 'Hard to Hit' rule found on flyers and FMC's.

Relevant rules:

Snap Shots pg 32 wrote:Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots -- opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn (pg 41) or when units make Overwatch shots (pf 45). If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot, as explained on page 9).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic Skill of 1.

Hitting your target is not always enough to put it out of action. The shot might result in nothing more than a superficial graze or flesh wound.

Notice how the snap shot rule is missing the prevention that if a shot is a snap shot it cannot auto hit?

Template Weapons pg173 wrote:Wall of Death
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value. Don’t worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn’t matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range of the Template weapon and were driven back.

Notice how WoD doesn't even care about snap shots. WoD has explicit permission to fire Overwatch.

TL: DR := Invisibility is lacking the "Hard to Hit" special rule, ergo Wall of Death is allowed.

edit: spelling fails =\

No argument from me about how the rule works with normal circumstances, which is all I got out of it.

But you never addressed my points. Mainly the first one.

1) Invisible units can only be fired at by snap shots.

Let's start there.

**rigeld2**

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?

No, I quoted a rule that says attacks that don't use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot. WoD has explicit permission to be fired during a time when only snap shots are allowed.

Correct!

Now - answer the question. Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill? I'm going to assume you answer "No." because any other answer is incorrect. Therefore Wall of Death cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Do we agree?
Now, Invisibility says:

Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

If you fire something that cannot be fired as a Snap Shot at a target that you must fire Snap Shots against, is that legal? You're firing something that isn't a Snap Shot at something that requires Snap Shots. Agreed?

**Mulletdude**

Ignatius wrote:

No argument from me about how the rule works with normal circumstances, which is all I got out of it.

But you never addressed my points. Mainly the first one.

1) Invisible units can only be fired at by snap shots.

Let's start there.

And like I said, the unit firing overwatch doesn't care about how invisible the unit is. In both circumstances the unit firing must fire snap shots. In both circumstances, template weapons cannot fire snap shots. Also in both circumstances, the Wall of Death rule says the template weapon can fire Overwatch although it is not permitted to snap shot.

**nosferatu1001**

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?

No, I quoted a rule that says attacks that don't use a ballistic skill cannot be fired as a snap shot. WoD has explicit permission to be fired during a time when only snap shots are allowed.

So a weapon that autohits. Has it used ballistic skill? Yes or no.
You're also ignoring that invis requires the weapon to be fired as a snapshot. Can your temp,ate weapon fire a snapshot? Yes or no

Simple, easy to answer.

**rigeld2**

Mulletdude wrote:
Also in both circumstances, the Wall of Death rule says the template weapon can fire Overwatch although it is not permitted to snap shot.

So you agree that Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot, yes?

**Ignatius**

rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
Also in both circumstances, the Wall of Death rule says the template weapon can fire Overwatch although it is not permitted to snap shot.

So you agree that Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot, yes?

Basically what I've been trying to get at.

**Mulletdude**

The important distinction to make is where the restriction is being placed.
During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.
When targeting an invisible unit, a unit can only fire snap shots.

In both cases, a template weapon cannot fire snap shots and does not fire a snap shot. It instead invokes the Wall of Death rule and inflicts auto-hits.

**jreilly89**

Did someone take away the poll? I was actually having fun watching each camp go back and forth, while there was still a 4-1 majority for the "Yes"

**rigeld2**

Mulletdude wrote:
The important distinction to make is where the restriction is being placed.
During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.
When targeting an invisible unit, a unit can only fire snap shots.

In both cases, a template weapon cannot fire snap shots and does not fire a snap shot. It instead invokes the Wall of Death rule and inflicts auto-hits.

So you're allowing a weapon to fire at a target that can only be hit by Snap Shots when that weapon cannot ever Snap Shot? Even the Wall of Death rules cite the Template weapon firing, and the Snap Shot rules tell us that it cannot fire Snap Shots.

**NightHowler**

rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?

The problem with your argument is that nothing in the invisibility rule prevents things that cause auto-hits. It says you must fire snapshots if shooting at the target, but says nothing to prevent the template rule from triggering.

Templates (Wall of Death):
Template weapons can fire overwatch even though they cannot fire snapshots. Instead, if a template weapon fires overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal strength and AP value.

So nothing in the Wall of Death rule requires you to roll to hit at all. It's automatic. No need for snapshots or balistic skill based 'to-hit' rolls. It just happens. A wall of flame that the invisible unit charges through automatically does D3 hits without rolling to hit. Just like Nova, just like beam, just like no escape - the hits are automatic. Saying you must roll snapshot to cause automatic hits would therefore necessarily also mean that nova, beam, no escape to also be useless against invisible units.

So rule X says you must snapshot to hit the unit and rule Y says the hits happen automatically. Sure... not ambiguous at all...

**Mulletdude**

rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
The important distinction to make is where the restriction is being placed.
During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.
When targeting an invisible unit, a unit can only fire snap shots.

In both cases, a template weapon cannot fire snap shots and does not fire a snap shot. It instead invokes the Wall of Death rule and inflicts auto-hits.

So you're allowing a weapon to fire at a target that can only be hit by Snap Shots when that weapon cannot ever Snap Shot? Even the Wall of Death rules cite the Template weapon firing, and the Snap Shot rules tell us that it cannot fire Snap Shots.

In the shooting section, it gives the basic rules of 'template weapons cannot snap shot' rule and "In addition, any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot". In the Wall of Death advanced special rule, it gives permission for a template weapon to fire overwatch, even though this attack is not a snap shot. The snap shots basic rule of is overridden by the advanced Special Rule of Wall of Death that gives explicit permission to fire during overwatch, which is a time where normally weapons are firing snap shots.

According to the BRB PG13, "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules".

**rigeld2**

NightHowler wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
blacktalos wrote:
Yes.
Attacks that auto hit cannot be Hitting on a 6. Yes or no?

not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?

Please quote the rule saying no-auto hits on snap shots. I'd love to see it.

You quoted it.

In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Do shots that automatically hit use Ballistic Skill?

The problem with your argument is that nothing in the invisibility rule prevents things that cause auto-hits. It says you must fire snapshots if shooting at the target, but says nothing to prevent the template rule from triggering.

The invisibility rule requires everything fired at the unit to be a Snap Shot. Agreed?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
The important distinction to make is where the restriction is being placed.
During overwatch, a unit can only fire snap shots.
When targeting an invisible unit, a unit can only fire snap shots.

In both cases, a template weapon cannot fire snap shots and does not fire a snap shot. It instead invokes the Wall of Death rule and inflicts auto-hits.

So you're allowing a weapon to fire at a target that can only be hit by Snap Shots when that weapon cannot ever Snap Shot? Even the Wall of Death rules cite the Template weapon firing, and the Snap Shot rules tell us that it cannot fire Snap Shots.

In the shooting section, it gives the general 'template weapons cannot snap shot' rule. In the Wall of Death rule, it gives permission for a template weapon to fire overwatch, even though this attack is not a snap shot. A template weapon firing in overwatch is not a snap shot. The snap shots generic rule of "In addition, any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot" is overridden by the more specific Special Rule of Wall of Death that gives explicit permission to fire during overwatch, which is a time where normally weapons are firing snap shots.

According to the BRB PG13, "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules".

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

You're also asserting that a weapon that can never fire Snap Shots is allowed to fire at a target that requires you to fire Snap Shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NightHowler wrote:
So rule X says you must snapshot to hit the unit and rule Y says the hits happen automatically. Sure... not ambiguous at all...

It's only ambiguous if you ignore the rules for a Snap Shot and pretend that it only means BS1.

**Mulletdude**

rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My understanding on Invisiblity and Template weapons so far:

1) If a unit is invisible, when it is being targeted by a shooting attack, the attack must be snap shots.

2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

3) When a unit it charged, it gets to declare overwatch. Overwatch shots have the restriction of 'must be snap shots'.

4) Wall of Death allows a template weapon to fire overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots.

5) In the eyes of a unit being charged: It does not matter if the unit is invisible or not, as the unit being charged can only fire snap shots.

**rigeld2**

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

Wall of Death allows a Template weapon to fire Overwatch (a shooting attack). Agreed? (assumed yes)
Wall of Death does not allow Template weapons to fire Snap Shots. Agreed? (Assumed yes)
Invisibility requires any shooting attack at the invisible unit to fire as a Snap Shot. Agreed? (Assumed yes)

The above rules have been quoted repeatedly.
When firing a Template Weapon as part of Overwatch, it is not firing and cannot fire Snap Shots. Agreed?

If you're required to fire Snap Shots at something and are unable to fire Snap Shots, can you fire the weapon?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mulletdude wrote:
My understanding on Invisiblity and Template weapons so far:

1) If a unit is invisible, when it is being targeted by a shooting attack, the attack must be snap shots.

2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

3) When a unit it charged, it gets to declare overwatch. Overwatch shots have the restriction of 'must be snap shots'.

4) Wall of Death allows a template weapon to fire overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots.

5) In the eyes of a unit being charged: It does not matter if the unit is invisible or not, as the unit being charged can only fire snap shots.

The underlined restriction doesn't exist - you have invented it.

**nosferatu1001**

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

**Mulletdude**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

Pg13, conflicting rules. Advanced special rule Wall of Death overrides basic rule Snap Shots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
My understanding on Invisiblity and Template weapons so far:

1) If a unit is invisible, when it is being targeted by a shooting attack, the attack must be snap shots.

2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

3) When a unit it charged, it gets to declare overwatch. Overwatch shots have the restriction of 'must be snap shots'.

4) Wall of Death allows a template weapon to fire overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots.

5) In the eyes of a unit being charged: It does not matter if the unit is invisible or not, as the unit being charged can only fire snap shots.

The underlined restriction doesn't exist - you have invented it.

The underlined is a restriction of my premise 2. Please look at each of my premises individually and tell me if you agree or disagree with them.

**rigeld2**

Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

Pg13, conflicting rules. Advanced special rule Wall of Death overrides basic rule Snap Shots.

Sure - Wall of Death allows Template weapons to fire Overwatch - because where the conflict lies.
There's no rule in Wall of Death allowing Template weapons to fire Snap Shots. No conflict means page 13 doesn't apply.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

The underlined restriction doesn't exist - you have invented it.

The underlined is a restriction of my premise 2. Please look at each of my premises individually and tell me if you agree or disagree with them.

Premise 2 is absolutely incorrect and has no basis in actual rules.

**sirlynchmob**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

pg 173

Instead of snapshots, fire WOD.

are we firing overwatch? yes
do templates have permission to fire during overwatch? Yes
does invisibility specifically cancel the permission to fire? no

d3 hits

or even
can only be hit with snapshots
instead of snapshots, WOD
can only be hit with WOD.

qed. d3 hits

**rigeld2**

sirlynchmob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

pg 173

Instead of snapshots, fire WOD.

are we firing overwatch? yes
do templates have permission to fire during overwatch? Yes
does invisibility specifically cancel the permission to fire? no

False. You're required to fire Snap Shots at invisible units. Templates cannot fire Snap Shots, and shooting attacks that don't use Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as Snap Shots.

**ClockworkZion**

I think it might be time for folks to take a step back from the thread and come back when their heads are a bit cooler. I think we can agree there is an argument both ways and because of that there is no true "100% right answer" at the moment.

I've sent this in for FAQing (assuming I don't just end up in the Spam Folder because of how many emails I end up sending in there) so maybe we'll see a definitive answer from GW on this. In the mean time I think it'll have to come down to a HIWPI.

**Mulletdude**

rigeld2 wrote:

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

The underlined restriction doesn't exist - you have invented it.

The underlined is a restriction of my premise 2. Please look at each of my premises individually and tell me if you agree or disagree with them.

Premise 2 is absolutely incorrect and has no basis in actual rules.

I'm sorry. What? How is my premise #2 incorrect? It reads as follows: If the current phase is the shooting phase, and I elect to target a unit that is invisible, therefore I am unable to fire a template weapon? How the is that logic wrong?

**nosferatu1001**

Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

Pg13, conflicting rules. Advanced special rule Wall of Death overrides basic rule Snap Shots.

Wrong, no conflict. Nothing in wall of death makes the flamer fire a snapshot. If you think this happens, prove it. You cannot do so, so concede this point. Also, given invisibility is setting the requirement, and is by definition a special rule, you would need explicit rules in wall of death to override this specfic requirement

NOTHING in WoD makes it a snapshot. Nothing. As such you are firing a weapon, not as a snapshot, at a unit that require you to fire as a snapshot. Breaking the rule.

This is proven. No part of your argument holds up, as it tries to ignore the "must snapshot" requirement.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

You're arguing that Wall of Death allows you to fire an Overwatch shot. I don't disagree with that premise.

If you're not arguing that premise, then what are you arguing?

That just because you could normally fire over watch , doesn't mean you can in this specific situation.

If you could evoke the rule, you would cause hits. Trimble is, to evoke the rule, you MUST FIRE a weapon you CANNOT FIRE .

So, explain how you are firing a weapon you have a prohibition on firing. Page and graph. should be straightforward.

pg 173

Instead of snapshots, fire WOD.

are we firing overwatch? yes
do templates have permission to fire during overwatch? Yes
does invisibility specifically cancel the permission to fire? no

d3 hits

or even
can only be hit with snapshots
instead of snapshots, WOD
can only be hit with WOD.

qed. d3 hits

Fired as a snapshot? No? No permission to fire. QED.

**rigeld2**

ClockworkZion wrote:I think it might be time for folks to take a step back from the thread and come back when their heads are a bit cooler. I think we can agree there is an argument both ways and because of that there is no true "100% right answer" at the moment.

Well, there is. I've quoted the rules supporting it.

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

Mulletdude wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Mulletdude wrote:
2) In the shooting phase, the restriction of 'not using BS, no shot' applies, preventing a template weapon from firing at an invisible unit.

The underlined restriction doesn't exist - you have invented it.

The underlined is a restriction of my premise 2. Please look at each of my premises individually and tell me if you agree or disagree with them.

Premise 2 is absolutely incorrect and has no basis in actual rules.

I'm sorry. What? How is my premise #2 incorrect? If the current phase is the shooting phase, and I elect to target a unit that is invisible, therefore I am unable to fire a template weapon? How the is that logic wrong?

You're unable to fire a Template weapon because it's a Template weapon. It has nothing to do with the "no BS, no snap shot" rule.
In addition, we're not discussing the shooting phase at all.

**nosferatu1001**

ClockworkZion wrote:
I think it might be time for folks to take a step back from the thread and come back when their heads are a bit cooler. I think we can agree there is an argument both ways and because of that there is no true "100% right answer" at the moment.

I've sent this in for FAQing (assuming I don't just end up in the Spam Folder because of how many emails I end up sending in there) so maybe we'll see a definitive answer from GW on this. In the mean time I think it'll have to come down to a HIWPI.

Except there isn't an argument both ways

To fire the flamer, it must do so as a snapshot. It cannot do so, so cannot fire.

It is EXACTLY that simple. WoD at No point turns it into a snapshot.

**ClockworkZion**

rigeld2 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:I think it might be time for folks to take a step back from the thread and come back when their heads are a bit cooler. I think we can agree there is an argument both ways and because of that there is no true "100% right answer" at the moment.

Well, there is. I've quoted the rules supporting it.

And they've quoted rules to argue against it.

Neither side is going to "win" this one and I really think it's better for people to step back instead of arguing to the point where a mod gets involved and starts smacking people upside the head.

**nosferatu1001**

Except their quoted rules do not actually support their stance. This has been proven repeatedly.

In fact a fair few actually destroy their argument.

**ClockworkZion**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except their quoted rules do not actually support their stance. This has been proven repeatedly.

In fact a fair few actually destroy their argument.

I'm not getting dragged into this and I'm not taking sides. I just offered the most rational option for when things turn into arguments on the internet: walk away and take a break.

**rigeld2**

ClockworkZion wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:I think it might be time for folks to take a step back from the thread and come back when their heads are a bit cooler. I think we can agree there is an argument both ways and because of that there is no true "100% right answer" at the moment.

Well, there is. I've quoted the rules supporting it.

And they've quoted rules to argue against it.

No, they're making up rules or ignoring them to argue against it.

**Mulletdude**

rigeld2 wrote:

You're unable to fire a Template weapon because it's a Template weapon. It has nothing to do with the "no BS, no snap shot" rule.
In addition, we're not discussing the shooting phase at all.

Relax a bit. My premise was correct and I'm trying to explain how it is. Ignore the topic of the thread and please tell me if you agree or disagree with the following premises.

1) If a unit is invisible, when it is being targeted by a shooting attack, the attack must be snap shots.

2) If the current phase is the shooting phase and I select a target to shoot at an invisible unit, the resulting shots must be snap shots.

3) If I am restricted to firing snap shots, I cannot fire a template weapon.

4) If a unit it charged, it gets to declare Overwatch.

5) Overwatch shots have the restriction of 'must be snap shots'.

6) Wall of Death allows a template weapon to fire Overwatch.