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 insaniak wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Additionally, I'm curious how you feel about nova. Does it affect invisible units?

Novas target every unit in their AOE, which is a problem. Strict RAW as far as I can see would be that you can't use a Nova if an Invisible unit is in the AOE. More practical would be to just exclude the Invisible unit from its effects, although it seems more reasonable (and realistic) to allow Novas to hit them regardless of the RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Does assaulting out of an assault transport specifically override the restriction for not being allowe to assault from reserves?

Yeah, your example doesn't work.

Does Wall of Death specifically over-ride the requirement to only fire Snap Shots at Invisible units?

During the assault phase it overrules the Snap Shot rule which is the only applicable part since Invisible just effectively says "see Snap Shots".

Where does Invisibility specifically overrule the ability to use Wall of Death?

AnFéasógMór wrote:
By your logic, even though HoW also auto-hits, it cannot be used, because in order for it to hit the invisible unit, it must be able to roll a 6, and Hammer of Wrath does not create a permission for the unit to roll a die.

That appears to be the case, yes.

As with not being able to use Novas, and the fuzziness around Beams, it's probably not the intention.


I'm still not sure how that changes the argument about WOD, though.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
That's hardly a fair comparison. The rules for assault vehicles specifically state "unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn". The rules for WoD do not specifically state, "unless the unit is invisible"

Now it does but it didn't in 6th. They faqed it to say exactly what we are saying here. You need a specific pass to ignore a restriction. Let me rephrase if it makes it easier.

In 6th, assault vehicle did not have the unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn. Did you allow it, at the time, to overrride the reserve restriction?

Gravmyr wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
That's hardly a fair comparison. The rules for assault vehicles specifically state "unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn". The rules for WoD do not specifically state, "unless the unit is invisible"

Now it does but it didn't in 6th. They faqed it to say exactly what we are saying here. You need a specific pass to ignore a restriction. Let me rephrase if it makes it easier.

In 6th, assault vehicle did not have the unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn. Did you allow it, at the time, to overrride the reserve restriction?

This isn't a discussion of 6th edition rules, but of 7th. Old rules are irrelevant in this discussion.

I goes directly to your way of thinking.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
During the assault phase it overrules the Snap Shot rule ...

...for firing Overwatch.

Again, it doesn't say 'Template weapon shots count as Snap Shots'... it simply allows them to fire in Overwatch, even though they aren't able to fire Snap Shots.


So the end result is an Overwatch attack that is not comprised of Snap Shots.


And what sort of shots are required in order to fire at an Invisible unit?

Where does Invisibility specifically overrule the ability to use Wall of Death?

It doesn't. Because it doesn't need to.

Wall of Death allows the unit to fire Overwatch. Within that unit, any weapons that can not fire Snap Shots will be unable to target Invisible enemy units, because Invisible units can only be targeted with Snap Shots.



That's what this keeps coming back to. WOD allows you to fire the templates despite them not being able to Snap Fire... but it doesn't make them count as Snap Shots. The attack from WOD is not comprised of Snap Shots, and so can not be used against an Invisible unit.

 NightHowler wrote:

I'm curious how you concluded that invisibility is more specific than wall of death...

Invisibility is a psychic power that forces other units to follow a general rule (snapshots)

Wall of death is a special ability under templates in the special rules section of the rulebook. It certainly seems more specific than snapshots to me, but then others may disagree.

Invisibility is a psychic power that forces other units to follow a general rule (snapshots) specifically when firing at the blessed unit. The rules for firing firing over watch with a template weapon are less specific because they apply to EVERY unit the firing unit might target, but the invisibility rules apply to targeting a SINGLE unit.

insaniak wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
By your logic, even though HoW also auto-hits, it cannot be used, because in order for it to hit the invisible unit, it must be able to roll a 6, and Hammer of Wrath does not create a permission for the unit to roll a die.

That appears to be the case, yes.

As with not being able to use Novas, and the fuzziness around Beams, it's probably not the intention.


I'm still not sure how that changes the argument about WOD, though.

Because of the last part of that second sentence. "It's probably not the intention". That is the entire point I've been trying to make. These rules are fuzzy. They are not as cut and dried as people seem to think. They create situtations and contradictions that are absolutely nonsensical. So why is Clockwork's interpretatiom any less valid than yours?

I highly doubt that it was GWs intention to forbid WoD against invisible units. Invisible or not, they're still running into a giant inferno. It would actually make more sense for HoW not to work (unless the troops just stumbled into the invisible unit so hard it hurt), but most people agree HoW works against invisibility (in fact it's a common competative counter to invisibility).

I get that YMDC is geared towards RAW debates, but there reaches a point that the RAW creates situations so nonsensical that you have to look at intent of the rule.

Gravmyr wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
That's hardly a fair comparison. The rules for assault vehicles specifically state "unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn". The rules for WoD do not specifically state, "unless the unit is invisible"

Now it does but it didn't in 6th. They faqed it to say exactly what we are saying here. You need a specific pass to ignore a restriction. Let me rephrase if it makes it easier.

In 6th, assault vehicle did not have the unless the unit arrived from reserve that turn. Did you allow it, at the time, to overrride the reserve restriction?

My apologies, I never played 6th, I was just going by the information I had available.

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
During the assault phase it overrules the Snap Shot rule ...

...for firing Overwatch.

Again, it doesn't say 'Template weapon shots count as Snap Shots'... it simply allows them to fire in Overwatch, even though they aren't able to fire Snap Shots.


So the end result is an Overwatch attack that is not comprised of Snap Shots.


And what sort of shots are required in order to fire at an Invisible unit?

You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules? There is no restriction on what caused the Snap Shots, just that during Overwatch you ignore the usual restriction.

Wall of Death isn't even supposed to represent a direct attack, it represents a literal wall of fire the opposing unit has to charge through. That's why it is allowed even when you can't normally snap fire.

 insaniak wrote:

Where does Invisibility specifically overrule the ability to use Wall of Death?

It doesn't. Because it doesn't need to.

Wall of Death allows the unit to fire Overwatch. Within that unit, any weapons that can not fire Snap Shots will be unable to target Invisible enemy units, because Invisible units can only be targeted with Snap Shots.

That's what this keeps coming back to. WOD allows you to fire the templates despite them not being able to Snap Fire... but it doesn't make them count as Snap Shots. The attack from WOD is not comprised of Snap Shots, and so can not be used against an Invisible unit.

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at something that's invisible or not, it's still Overwatch. Unless Invisibility changes what that shooting attack is called it does not deny Wall of Death because it's permitted as part of the Overwatch shooting attack.

Which tells me that you either see that there is a comparison or that you thought it should have been allowed and then were flat out informed you were incorrect via FAQ.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Because of the last part of that second sentence. "It's probably not the intention". That is the entire point I've been trying to make. These rules are fuzzy. They are not as cut and dried as people seem to think. They create situtations and contradictions that are absolutely nonsensical. So why is Clockwork's interpretatiom any less valid than yours?

Because the discussion is on the actual rules.

I've pointed out several times in this thread so far that I suspect that autohits should be allowed, but just aren't as the rules currently stand.

Suggesting that it be allowed is perfectly acceptable as a house rule.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules?

There is no contradiction.

WOD allows you to make Overwatch shots that are not Snap Shots. Invisibility doesn't care what WOD allows you to do... it requires you to fire Snap Shots.

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch.

Sure. And in general, that Overwatch shooting is comprised of Snap Shots.

If something allows you to fire Overwatch without those shots being Snap Shots, then the Overwatch shooting is (in that specific case) not comprised of Snap Shots.

So if something can only be fired upon with Snap Shots, you can normally fire Overwatch against them, but would be unable to do si in that situation where your Overwatch is not comprised of Snap Shots.

 insaniak wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Because of the last part of that second sentence. "It's probably not the intention". That is the entire point I've been trying to make. These rules are fuzzy. They are not as cut and dried as people seem to think. They create situtations and contradictions that are absolutely nonsensical. So why is Clockwork's interpretatiom any less valid than yours?

Because the discussion is on the actual rules.

I've pointed out several times in this thread so far that I suspect that autohits should be allowed, but just aren't as the rules currently stand.

Suggesting that it be allowed is perfectly acceptable as a house rule.

The actual rules that say during an Overwatch that Wall of Death overrules the Snap Shot rule specifically.

Also Hammer of Wrath is a Close Combat attack at I10 that auto-hits and doesn't follow the rules for shooting and thus is not affected by snap shots.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The actual rules that say during an Overwatch that Wall of Death overrules the Snap Shot rule specifically.

For firing Overwatch, yes.

That has no impact on any other rule that interacts with Snap Shots. It just allows you to fire Overwatch that isn't a Snap Shot.

Also Hammer of Wrath is a Close Combat attack at I10 that auto-hits and doesn't follow the rules for shooting and thus is not affected by snap shots.

...ok?

Was someone saying HoW was affected by Snap Shots?

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The actual rules that say during an Overwatch that Wall of Death overrules the Snap Shot rule specifically.

For firing Overwatch, yes.

That has no impact on any other rule that interacts with Snap Shots. It just allows you to fire Overwatch that isn't a Snap Shot.

Where do the rules say that two occurances of the same rule happen at the same time are treated as seperate entities?

Also Wall of Death doesn't say override Snap Shots caused by the Overwatch rule, it flat out ignores ALL instances of Snap Shot when firing Overwatch.

 insaniak wrote:

Also Hammer of Wrath is a Close Combat attack at I10 that auto-hits and doesn't follow the rules for shooting and thus is not affected by snap shots.

...ok?

Was someone saying HoW was affected by Snap Shots?

I was pointing out why it doesn't really properly factor into this discussion. Yes, it auto-hits, but it's not bound to the restrictions Snap Shots are.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Where do the rules say that two occurances of the same rule happen at the same time are treated as seperate entities?

If they're caused by two separate things, why would they not be?


But that's still ultimately not the actual issue here. The actual problem is simple:

If you fire an Overwatch shot that isn't a Snap Shot, are you firing a Snap Shot?

Also Wall of Death doesn't say override Snap Shots caused by the Overwatch rule, it flat out ignores ALL instances of Snap Shot when firing Overwatch.

No, it doesn't. It allows you to fire Overwatch even though template weapons can't fire Snap Shots.

That's it. There is no blanket removal of the Snap Shot rule in the Wall of Death rule. Just a specific allowance to fire a template weapon at a specific time when you would normally only be able to fire Snap Shots.

SO, again, if you fire an Overwatch shot that isn't a Snap Shot, are you firing a Snap Shot?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Also Wall of Death doesn't say override Snap Shots caused by the Overwatch rule, it flat out ignores ALL instances of Snap Shot when firing Overwatch.

BRB Wall of Death wrote:Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.

I'm not sure what you are reading to get to the conclusion that you ignore all instances of Snap Shots when firing Overwatch, when it states that they can fire Overwatch even though they can't fire Snap Shots.

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Where do the rules say that two occurances of the same rule happen at the same time are treated as seperate entities?

If they're caused by two separate things, why would they not be?

Because regardless of source it's still referring to the same exact rule. It's not creating 2 separate rules with similar but different effects but instead pointing at the same rule and saying "do this" while WoD say "I overrule that if you're shooting Overwatch".

 insaniak wrote:
But that's still ultimately not the actual issue here. The actual problem is simple:

If you fire an Overwatch shot that isn't a Snap Shot, are you firing a Snap Shot?

WoD doesn't care about your snap shots because it ignores them. Show me something in Invisibility that says that Snap Shots can't be overruled and you'd have me convinced, but there isn't anything. All it says is to use the general rule which is overruled by a specific rule when being shot at during Overwatch (itself being a Specific Rule that allows you to shoot during your opponent's assault phase while referring to the Snap Shots rule on how to resolve the shooting attack).

 insaniak wrote:

Also Wall of Death doesn't say override Snap Shots caused by the Overwatch rule, it flat out ignores ALL instances of Snap Shot when firing Overwatch.

No, it doesn't. It allows you to fire Overwatch even though template weapons can't fire Snap Shots.

That's it. There is no blanket removal of the Snap Shot rule in the Wall of Death rule. Just a specific allowance to fire a template weapon at a specific time when you would normally only be able to fire Snap Shots.

SO, again, if you fire an Overwatch shot that isn't a Snap Shot, are you firing a Snap Shot?

Where does WoD differentiate where the Snap Shot rule comes from during Overwatch? Where does the override get limited?

You're not providing and evidence that the rules actually treat the snap shot rule different just because it is referenced from different rules, nor are you providing evidence that there is anything that says the override provided by WoD. You're making assertions but have yet to give me specifics that actually support those assertions.

We already have a situation with Overwatch and WoD where Overwatch says "you snap shot" and WoD tells Overwatch to get stuff and says "I auto-hit instead" (which itself is a Overwatch Snap Shot that isn't a Snap Shot) so how does Invisibility change that despite telling you to do the same thing?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
WoD doesn't care about your snap shots because it ignores them.

Yes, Wall of Death does. Which means that the Overwatch shot that you fire is not a Snap Shot.

How are you getting from there to an allowance to fire something other than a Snap Shot at an Invisible unit?

Show me something in Invisibility that says that Snap Shots can't be overruled and you'd have me convinced, but there isn't anything.

I'm not saying that Snap Shots can't be over-ruled. I'm saying that they're not over-ruled.

Because they're not.

Where does WoD differentiate where the Snap Shot rule comes from during Overwatch? Where does the override get limited?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

You're not providing and evidence that the rules actually treat the snap shot rule different just because it is referenced from different rules, nor are you providing evidence that there is anything that says the override provided by WoD.

That's because I'm not claiming that the rules treat the snap shot rule differently dependong on where it referenced, and I'm probably not claiming whatever it is you said in the second half of that statement.


There is exacty one over-ride in play here: You can fire Overwatch (which normally has to be a Snap Shot) even though the weapon you are using can't fire Snap Shots.

You don't fire a Snap Shot. You fire an Overwatch shot that isn't a Snap Shot.

You don't throw the Snap Shot rule out the window... it simply doesn't apply to that Overwatch shot, because that Overwatch shot is not a Snap Shot.


So... Can you fire at an Invisible unit with something that isn't a Snap Shot?

For the folks saying WoD works.

An invisible unit charges a squad that has Forewarning(?) cast on it (or whatever the psychic power that allows overwatch at full BS is).

Dos the unit get to fire at full BS, or do they have to roll 6's to hit the invisible unit?

 Happyjew wrote:
For the folks saying WoD works.

An invisible unit charges a squad that has Forewarning(?) cast on it (or whatever the psychic power that allows overwatch at full BS is).

Dos the unit get to fire at full BS, or do they have to roll 6's to hit the invisible unit?

I'd say yes, fire at full BS.

When you're being charged, you are firing Overwatch, which in nature are by default Snap Shots. But Forewarning merely ignores the fact you'd normally fire at BS1. The shots are merely now full BS snapshots. Edit: Forewarning does not change the inherent nature of the shots being fired, the phase they are being fired in, or the trigger allowing these shots.

Melevolence wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
For the folks saying WoD works.

An invisible unit charges a squad that has Forewarning(?) cast on it (or whatever the psychic power that allows overwatch at full BS is).

Dos the unit get to fire at full BS, or do they have to roll 6's to hit the invisible unit?

I'd say yes, fire at full BS.

When you're being charged, you are firing Overwatch, which in nature are by default Snap Shots. But Forewarning merely ignores the fact you'd normally fire at BS1. The shots are merely now full BS snapshots. Edit: Forewarning does not change the inherent nature of the shots being fired, the phase they are being fired in, or the trigger allowing these shots.

I agree. All Snap Shots treated the same during Overwatch so anything that overrides Snap Shots during Overwatch would work unless GW says otherwise.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules? There is no restriction on what caused the Snap Shots, just that during Overwatch you ignore the usual restriction.

Not true whatsoever.
When making an Overwatch attack a Template weapon is allowed to fire.
That doesn't mean it's firing a Snap Shot.
Invisibility requires you to fire a Snap Shot.

[

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at something that's invisible or not, it's still Overwatch. Unless Invisibility changes what that shooting attack is called it does not deny Wall of Death because it's permitted as part of the Overwatch shooting attack.

You can fire Templates in an Overwatch attack all you want, but you cannot fire at an Invisible unit without a Snap Shot.

You have multiple restrictions and only one conflicting rule to override. Meaning there's still a restriction that must be followed.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules? There is no restriction on what caused the Snap Shots, just that during Overwatch you ignore the usual restriction.

Not true whatsoever.
When making an Overwatch attack a Template weapon is allowed to fire.
That doesn't mean it's firing a Snap Shot.
Invisibility requires you to fire a Snap Shot.

[

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at something that's invisible or not, it's still Overwatch. Unless Invisibility changes what that shooting attack is called it does not deny Wall of Death because it's permitted as part of the Overwatch shooting attack.

You can fire Templates in an Overwatch attack all you want, but you cannot fire at an Invisible unit without a Snap Shot.

You have multiple restrictions and only one conflicting rule to override. Meaning there's still a restriction that must be followed.

Please quote in the rules where having multiple restrictions means you must have multiple overrides.

Question: Unit that went to ground, gets up but can only fire snapshots. If they get charged by a unit, can they Overwatch with a Flamer? What if they have Forewarning on (the full BS power)?

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules? There is no restriction on what caused the Snap Shots, just that during Overwatch you ignore the usual restriction.

Not true whatsoever.
When making an Overwatch attack a Template weapon is allowed to fire.
That doesn't mean it's firing a Snap Shot.
Invisibility requires you to fire a Snap Shot.

[

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at something that's invisible or not, it's still Overwatch. Unless Invisibility changes what that shooting attack is called it does not deny Wall of Death because it's permitted as part of the Overwatch shooting attack.

You can fire Templates in an Overwatch attack all you want, but you cannot fire at an Invisible unit without a Snap Shot.

You have multiple restrictions and only one conflicting rule to override. Meaning there's still a restriction that must be followed.

Please quote in the rules where having multiple restrictions means you must have multiple overrides.

Question: Unit that went to ground, gets up but can only fire snapshots. If they get charged by a unit, can they Overwatch with a Flamer? What if they have Forewarning on (the full BS power)?

The super common one is deep striking and disembarking. Units can't charge the turn they deep strike, and units can't charge the turn they disembark from a vehicle. Assault Vehicles allow disembarking and Assaulting. But if a Drop pod, raider, Stormwolf, ect ect come on from reserves and a unit disembarks can they assault? No, because they only have one permission to do so but two restrictions.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Question: Unit that went to ground, gets up but can only fire snapshots. If they get charged by a unit, can they Overwatch with a Flamer?

They can't fire Overwatch with anything, in that scenario, as the Go To Ground rules say no overwatch.

What if they have Forewarning on (the full BS power)?

Foreboding lets them fire Snap Shots at full BS. It doesn't change when Snap Shots are fired, or which shots are or are not Snap Shots.


And, again, this isn't actually an issue of multiple restrictions applying anyway.

The WOD rule simply doesn't interact with Invisibility at all.

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

You just quoted that during Overwatch they're allowed to fire despite not being allowed to fire Snap Shots, so where is the contradiction between rules? There is no restriction on what caused the Snap Shots, just that during Overwatch you ignore the usual restriction.

Not true whatsoever.
When making an Overwatch attack a Template weapon is allowed to fire.
That doesn't mean it's firing a Snap Shot.
Invisibility requires you to fire a Snap Shot.

[

There is only one kind of shooting attack during the Assault Phase: Overwatch. It doesn't matter if you're shooting at something that's invisible or not, it's still Overwatch. Unless Invisibility changes what that shooting attack is called it does not deny Wall of Death because it's permitted as part of the Overwatch shooting attack.

You can fire Templates in an Overwatch attack all you want, but you cannot fire at an Invisible unit without a Snap Shot.

You have multiple restrictions and only one conflicting rule to override. Meaning there's still a restriction that must be followed.

Please quote in the rules where having multiple restrictions means you must have multiple overrides.

Question: Unit that went to ground, gets up but can only fire snapshots. If they get charged by a unit, can they Overwatch with a Flamer? What if they have Forewarning on (the full BS power)?

No and no.
I'll provide that rules quote when you define - using the rulebook - the word "a".
I'm patient - I'll wait.

To those saying WoD works - answer this

Are you allowed to fire a non-snapshot shot at a unit that requires all firing is a snapshot?

A simp,e yes or no is all that is needed. No wall of text, no wriggle - yes or no.

rigeld2 wrote:

Not a relevant question. There's no restriction for CC attacks that auto hit in the Hammer of Wrath chain.
There is in the Wall of Death chain. You continue to ignore that difference.
[Snip]
A Snap Shot is very much more than simply requiring a 6 to hit. The reason your argument fails is that you fail to apply all the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
[Snip]
not relevant, as there is no clause preventing auto hits in cc. You realise there is one in snapshot, yes? You've quoted the rule so are surely aware there is a difference?
[Snip]
How is that similar to the clause disallowing automatic hits? Please reference the same clause in invis. Page and graph. 2nd time of asking. [Snip]
Good job that isn't all of the snapshot restriction then! It's almost like yours arguing dishonestly by leaving out key parts of a rule. Don't.

Snapshot has more restrictions. Such as not being able to fire template weapons. Invis requires you to fire a snapshot. Show how you haves one so - page and grAoh.
[Snip]
Because when firing at the unit you can only fire snapshots. Any weapon unabl to fire snapshots csnnot fire. I am unsure how this concept is evading you.

Please, explain how you are selecting a weapon to fire, when firing it breaks a rule. Is cheating allowable now?

So you are both relying on this Rule, from Snap Shots:
"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots."

Great ! What do you think Wall of Death does to that rule? I thought we had already agreed that these weapons could not fire?
I can't fire the weapon, otherwise i break the Snap Shot rule.
I follow the Wall of Death rule Instead and get D3 Auto-Hits. I just resolve Auto-Hits, like i would for Hammer of Wrath

The restrictions are exactly the same:
A) The weapons fired at the target must be Snap shots, or they break Rules.
B) Close Combat attacks at the target must have rolled a 6 To Hit, or they break Rules.

Your position disallows Hammer of Wrath and Wall of Death. If it only allows one and not the other, your are being inconsistent with the application of Rules (Cherry-picking which Auto-Hits are allowed).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blacktalos wrote:
And i would point out Wall of Death does not happen after you select the weapon and fire it (like "no Escape"
It is a rule that provides Auto-Hits to a charging Unit when the weapon is selected ("if a Template weapon fires Overwatch".

Indeed. It happens after selecting the weapon and fire it, as the rule literally requires you to fire the template weapon. If you do not select, and fire, the template weapon, you never get to the special rule

This is all proven through rules quotes. You have yet to offer a single argument that doesn't rely on ignoring, rewriting, or partially quoting rules.

How do you perform the underlined above? That is not RaW. What is firing a weapon? please define the Term?

I'll do it for you:
"Firing a weapon" or "Firing at" involves following these steps:

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

What does "if a Template weapon fires Overwatch" actually mean? I thought this would be clear with your knowledge of rules:

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. ---> Heavy Flamer

All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot. ---> Actually, I can't shoot, because i cannot Snap Fire with this weapon. Wall of Death: You get D3 Auto-Hits (just in case this was not clear: Auto-Hits are allocated to the target Unit, so range and LoS are not relevant - just as the fluff says in WoD)

4. Roll To Hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model’s Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target. ---> This is where Invisibility applies. But we've got Auto-Hits, so we're not worried

5. Roll To Wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.

UNfortunately once you say that step three is where WoD happens that is also where Invisibility happens.

BRB Invisibility wrote:Whilst the power is
in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit...

Both Overwatch and Invisibility require you to fire snap shots while only Overwatch is overridden by WoD. What way did you handle charging from assault vehicles coming in from reserve in 6th? Why would you treat two restrictions different from two restrictions? The statement that it was last edition doesn't hold up when they went out of their way to make it clear in 7th that GW feels that you still specific overrides for all restrictions.

Would you even start the shooting process at all if you are unable to fire at the target?

enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

If you can not fire snap shots, you can not fire at the unit, there is no way the template can fire anything which is a snap shot.

A snap shot is a firing at BS1. Anything not fired at BS1, including a system that does not use BS is not a snapshot and can not be fired at the target unit. We don't just start the process skip a step then go 'Oops that wasn't a snap shot, oh well too late now', you just never start the process.

Why, at step 3 where invisibility is concerned would it not go; Autohits are not snap shots, Can not be fired. What in invisibility rules, snap shot rules or WOD rules would make invisibility go : Auto hits: OK, you may fire.

By the time you've rolled to hit or generated those hits automatically you've already fired, Invisibility must check before the hits are generated (no matter what means are used to generate them).


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As for using Assault vehicle rules and the restrictions & permissions I believe the example can still be given where passengers fire non assault weapons during their shooting phase and then their assault transport is destroyed during the same phase. Most regular occurrence of such I believe would be scattering friendly blasts onto the transport.
Of course, from reserves was a much stronger example when it was still relevant.