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Dash2021 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Then again I'm attempting to ascribe traits other than Unadulterated Hate to a guy called Angron.

See, there's your problem. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does. The fact that it was a woman was for the readers benefit only, to make the scene that much more shocking to you. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a woman, man, puppy dog rolling over to be pet on its itty bitty tum tum....Angron was going to pulp whomever was stupid enough/forced to speak on behalf of Nuceria.

That makes it slightly misogynistic from an out-of-universe perspective (See women in refrigerators), in-universe Angron doesn't care that it's a woman, a child, a man or a wombat. It hurt him, so he hurts it.

Where are you getting all that "Honorable Khorne" from?

It's a popular mythconception that the Chaos Gods used to be morally balanced in Rogue Trader.

It was thoroughly discussed in this thread. The direct quotes from Realms of CHaos start halfway down the second page.

 lcmiracle wrote:
The real question is, if Angron did mash a woman to a bloody pulp in such a gruesome manner, what did the woman do? It's a lot of effort and time of a demigod of a daemon to spend on just one mortal.

If it is in Betrayer it is when Angron enters the throne room of the Nucerian kingdom to confront the existing king, which turns out to be of the same bloodline that had Angron as their slave. Angron asks the women, which I think is the leader of the kingdoms armies, the tale of Angron. She tells Angron the story that they know, that Angron ran away and left his allies to die. This upsets Angron, he places his hand on her head and asks the questions again. He gets the same answer and he smooshes her noggin'.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
The real question is, if Angron did mash a woman to a bloody pulp in such a gruesome manner, what did the woman do? It's a lot of effort and time of a demigod of a daemon to spend on just one mortal.

If it is in Betrayer it is when Angron enters the throne room of the Nucerian kingdom to confront the existing king, which turns out to be of the same bloodline that had Angron as their slave. Angron asks the women, which I think is the leader of the kingdoms armies, the tale of Angron. She tells Angron the story that they know, that Angron ran away and left his allies to die. This upsets Angron, he places his hand on her head and asks the questions again. He gets the same answer and he smooshes her noggin'.

Huh, well that does make sense for a demigod have to face his old wound. I guess it is also in keep with Angron's character. Gotta say the woman had some balls to face Angron's wraith with discipline.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Dash2021 wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Then again I'm attempting to ascribe traits other than Unadulterated Hate to a guy called Angron.

See, there's your problem. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does. The fact that it was a woman was for the readers benefit only, to make the scene that much more shocking to you. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a woman, man, puppy dog rolling over to be pet on its itty bitty tum tum....Angron was going to pulp whomever was stupid enough/forced to speak on behalf of Nuceria.

That makes it slightly misogynistic from an out-of-universe perspective (See women in refrigerators), in-universe Angron doesn't care that it's a woman, a child, a man or a wombat. It hurt him, so he hurts it.

I'm not sure it qualified as a Woman in the Fridgerator honestly. as that trope uses the "bad fate to women" to cause angish to the protagionist. which wasn't the case here. This isn't to say 40k doesn't employ this trope. Cyrene comes to mind

 Wyzilla wrote:
Uh. Angron's actually among the shorter Primarchs. He's probably more like ten feet at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto Weston wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
The "new" Khorne may approve, the old (and way more interesting) Khorne would likely have not.

Yeah, Old Khorne was so much better. He killed any of his followers who slaughtered those who couldn't defend themselves or who picked on the weak. He was more interested in the quality of fights and honour. For him, Blood and Skulls came from valiant opponents and glorious duels. I find this new Khorne to be rather one-dimensional; Blood and Skulls simply for the sake of Blood and Skulls... not as memorials and treasures of epic fights.

I can't remember this Khorne ever existing in 40K. I've never seen anything to support it, it appears to be the result of nostalgia warping the past.

I remember the Flesh-hounds being called the manifestation of Khorne's Vengeance and Honour because they hunted down those among his own followers who betrayed their honour by slaughtering an unworthy foe. Unfortunately that has seemed to be retconned, now that I look at Lexicanum.

Lexicanum still says the following about Khorne though -
"Khorne is said to have inherited a martial nobility and honour, and considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath"

There's also the following from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine 2nd edition -
"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood."

I believe old honourable Khorne to be superior to this new DGAF Khorne. Let's say you killed a baby and handed its Skull and Blood to Khorne. Old Khorne would make an example of you to the rest of his followers by having you hunted down and slaughtered like the coward you are, whereas this new Khorne would go meh and throw the skull on the pile and tell you to keep working.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
I thought it was very chauvinistic because the difference in physicality was astronomical, and he kinda got off on having so much power over a former tormenter. He was showing off his power by making the greatest possible difference between his opponents and him.

Remember, we are still talking about a ten-to-twelve feet tall superhuman being here. The gender of his victim has absolutely no bearing on their ability to defend themselves. He could have done the same thing to a Space Marine, and they would have been just as defenseless.

There's nothing misogynistic about it. She was hardly the first, nor the last human Angron murdered on that planet, and for no seeming motive other than anger and hatred of the general population of the planet. If anything, it's equal treatment.

 Otto Weston wrote:

I remember the Flesh-hounds being called the manifestation of Khorne's Vengeance and Honour because they hunted down those among his own followers who betrayed their honour by slaughtering an unworthy foe. Unfortunately that has seemed to be retconned, now that I look at Lexicanum.

The current codex says

They are the Flesh Hounds, the attack beasts of Khorne, and they are created to endlessly hunt down cowards, traitors and other fools who have dared to offend the Blood God.

Kinda the same

 Otto Weston wrote:

I believe old honourable Khorne to be superior to this new DGAF Khorne. Let's say you killed a baby and handed its Skull and Blood to Khorne. Old Khorne would make an example of you to the rest of his followers by having you hunted down and slaughtered like the coward you are, whereas this new Khorne would go meh and throw the skull on the pile and tell you to keep working.

The warrior's 'Honor' is quite some difficult topic. And it depends on your pov and culture. What one might think is honourable, others will consider a vile dishonour. And vise versa.

For example, i remember reading one story about a viking hero. He went on a raid and broke into the house. Saw that noone's resisting him,grabbed stuff he liked the most and went away. But on the way to his drakkar, he realised that he had done a dishonorable act. He basically stole the goods from people. And stealing is bad. He'd never enter Valhalla having done such a lowly act. So, he went back to that house and killed everyone inside. Cause stealing is bad and pillaging is honourable.

He eventually ended up in Valhalla.

Khorne is a primodrial god made up from emotions. It actually makes less sence for him to be bogged down by some self-implemented chivalry restrictions rather than approve of mindless murder no matter what.

Animus wrote:
"Old" Khorne is actually much the same as current Khorne.
Any blood pleased him, friend or foe. That Kharn the Betrayer is his greatest mortal champion does not speak greatly of his honour.
Here's your old Khorne:

Why is no one posting about "Old Khorne" actually reading this?

For example, i remember reading one story about a viking hero. He went on a raid and broke into the house. Saw that noone's resisting him, grabbed stuff he liked the most and went away. But on the way to his drakkar, he realised that he had done a dishonorable act. He basically stole the goods from people. And stealing is bad. He'd never enter Valhalla having done such a lowly act. So, he went back to that house and killed everyone inside. Cause stealing is bad and pillaging is honourable.

He eventually ended up in Valhalla.

Brilliant story - thanks for that...........

 Mr Morden wrote:

Why is no one posting about "Old Khorne" actually reading this?

There's old Khorne and then there is old, old, old Khorne

People are putting words into Khorne's mouth, to make him fit what they would like to believe about him.

Old Flesh-hounds, paraphrased, "hunted down those among his own followers who betrayed their honour by slaughtering an unworthy foe" as previously mentioned.

... but nowhere are we told what an "unworthy foe" is or what terms "betraying their honor" meant. We have some general guidelines (don't use magic spells, don't be a psyker) and some vague hints (it's better to kill people closer to your own skill level in combat, but it's better to kill something, anything, than to not kill at all) but we are never given a definitive list of the do's and don'ts of Khorne-worship.

 Psienesis wrote:

... but nowhere are we told what an "unworthy foe" is or what terms "betraying their honor" meant. We have some general guidelines (don't use magic spells, don't be a psyker) and some vague hints (it's better to kill people closer to your own skill level in combat, but it's better to kill something, anything, than to not kill at all) but we are never given a definitive list of the do's and don'ts of Khorne-worship.

Darn, seems i'll have to delay my bloody sacrafices until someone posts "The List Of Do's And Dont's Of Khorne Worship". Don't want to get on the wrong foot with Khorne from the start, you know...

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that people are killing and dying in his name.

I guess you could have people worshiping specific aspects of him, having cults arise around that aspect and channel some form of worship to him.

and they may have martial codes or "honour" - not that that matters to the "dishonourable" people who are being butchered - usually poor people.......

but at the heart of it Khorne is a pretty simple being................he wants what he wants - blood and skulls. I guess killing things with neither don't count

 Mr Morden wrote:
I guess you could have people worshiping specific aspects of him, having cults arise around that aspect and channel some form of worship to him.

and they may have martial codes or "honour" - not that that matters to the "dishonourable" people who are being butchered - usually poor people.......

but at the heart of it Khorne is a pretty simple being................he wants what he wants - blood and skulls. I guess killing things with neither don't count

Something like this, then?

Slime for the Slime throne?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Why is no one posting about "Old Khorne" actually reading this?

There's old Khorne and then there is old, old, old Khorne

But... You can't go much earlier than the Realm of Chaos books in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle universe, and certainly no earlier for the 40K universe since (the 40K part of) it was released for Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader.

I thought you can do anything in the Warp.

Probably that's the answer to how Khorne approves of mindless murder of anything and simultaniously has 'honour'. Cause he's simultaniously Khorne and Old, Old Khorne. He is Honourable but Murderous. Or Murderous but Honourable. Maybe there are two Khornes? Khorn and Mkhorn?

 koooaei wrote:
I thought you can do anything in the Warp.

Probably that's the answer to how Khorne approves of mindless murder of anything and simultaniously has 'honour'. Cause he's simultaniously Khorne and Old, Old Khorne. He is Honourable but Murderous. Or Murderous but Honourable. Maybe there are two Khornes? Khorn and Mkhorn?

...I think you on to something here: Khorne is Khaine, who is worshiped by the Craftworld Eldars as a God of War, while simultaneously worshiped by Dark Eldars for a twisted murder god for torture (which he is, and the Incubus get it), who is also Gork and Mork because one is Brutally Cunnin' and another Cunningly Brutal, the two aspects of fighting. And, since the Eldar are claimed by Slaanesh, yet they too worships Khorne (as established that Khorne is Khaine), they too are claimed by Khorne, so... Slaanesh really is Khorne... and Eldars are a dying race, it's the dying struggle that strengthens the Lord of Decay, so Khorne is really also Nurgle... and since Eldars are a psychic race, that would imply that Khorne is also Tzeentch...

Holy Lorgar is right!

I think Khaine is a seperate entity to Khorne. All the Eldar pantheon are their own gods. As are Gork and Mork I believe.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Khaine is a seperate entity to Khorne. All the Eldar pantheon are their own gods. As are Gork and Mork I believe.

The other potnetial is the "overlap" of all these different warp entities - so Khaine is an entity in its own right but also part of he greater entity Khorne - in the same way as Isha (fertility etc) is part of Nurgle (*)- hence her "imprisonment /capture" by that entity. The Eldar gods are all also part of Slaanesh....

It gets a bit wierd with the Ork Gods............

(*) menitioned again in most recent White Dwarf

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Why is no one posting about "Old Khorne" actually reading this?

There's old Khorne and then there is old, old, old Khorne

But... You can't go much earlier than the Realm of Chaos books in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle universe, and certainly no earlier for the 40K universe since (the 40K part of) it was released for Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader.

Yeah, that's the old, old, old Khorne. Others are on about the Old Khorne

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Khaine is a seperate entity to Khorne. All the Eldar pantheon are their own gods. As are Gork and Mork I believe.

Yea, I don't think the overlap makes that much sense. Human or Ork emotions didn't seem to have any effect on the Eldar gods for example. The Dark Eldar torturing their victims doesn't seem to feed Slaanesh either.

 ImAGeek wrote:

I don't really see how it's chauvanistic either, he didn't kill her because she was a woman. He killed someone, who happened to be a woman. Bearing in mind the only human, possibly the only being, Angron respects, is a woman.

Pretty much this.

I mean, we don't call Horus a misandrist.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Khaine is a seperate entity to Khorne. All the Eldar pantheon are their own gods. As are Gork and Mork I believe.

Yea, I don't think the overlap makes that much sense. Human or Ork emotions didn't seem to have any effect on the Eldar gods for example. The Dark Eldar torturing their victims doesn't seem to feed Slaanesh either.

The whole point of the Dark Eldar torturing their victims is to feed Slaanesh. It feeds Slaanesh in their place so Slaanesh eats the pain from the torturees instead of the Dark Eldar's soul. Well, far as I recall, at least.

Anyways, the entire warp itself can be considered a singular entity with a severe case of multiple-personality disorder. This was stated by Goodwin (At least, I think it was Goodwin) long ago. Khaine was thus both an aspect of Khorne and Slaanesh, which is why Khorne got pissed when he felt Slaanesh yanking Khaine away (again, directly stated by Goodwin)

Well, that was what Jes said a long long time ago. It's a bit more questionable now with the end-times revealing that the Eldar Gods were a long lost race that got destroyed by Chaos or something like that.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Khaine is a seperate entity to Khorne. All the Eldar pantheon are their own gods. As are Gork and Mork I believe.

The other potnetial is the "overlap" of all these different warp entities - so Khaine is an entity in its own right but also part of he greater entity Khorne - in the same way as Isha (fertility etc) is part of Nurgle (*)- hence her "imprisonment /capture" by that entity. The Eldar gods are all also part of Slaanesh....

It gets a bit wierd with the Ork Gods............

(*) menitioned again in most recent White Dwarf

Kind of like how Xuan'tian Shang'di is a snake and a turtle at the same time? As well as being both a primordial deity and a risen immortal?

Wait, but Slaanesh couldn't kill Khaine. They were at a stalemate before Khorne came along, so how is Khaine an aspect of Slaanesh when Slaanesh was unable to consume Khaine?

TiamatRoar wrote:
The whole point of the Dark Eldar torturing their victims is to feed Slaanesh. It feeds Slaanesh in their place so Slaanesh eats the pain from the torturees instead of the Dark Eldar's soul. Well, far as I recall, at least.

Oh, right! I'm supposed to be familiar with this fluff I guess the DE leeching life force from their victim thing somehow made me forget that the main purpose for why they had to torture victims was to distract Slaanesh.