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Howdy all!

Just a random question, Given all the plastic and resin models out there now;

Has anyone tried painting these without an application of Primer?

((Also, correct me if I am wrong, Primer is nothing but an adhesive black coat that allows paint to stick to it.))

If you're careful to start with a very thin coat I've found that just undercoating straight over the plastic with Citadel Abaddon Black works reasonably well; you have to be careful about it, but you can end up with decent-looking models.

My question is, why would you want to paint without primer? I did it back in my very early days and the models look ok, but my primed models look much better.

I've always found that getting a nice, smooth and comprehensive primer coat was one of the most important steps in my painting. Saying that it's also not very hard to do with a spray can.

Just curious.

No real reason. I was simply curious how models would turn out without a primer. As you say it is one of the most important steps.

I started when models were lead and Metal.

With the new plastics and resins I was curious if Priming could be skipped. if the plastic was porous enough to absorb the paint.

 Vanguard-13 wrote:
((Also, correct me if I am wrong, Primer is nothing but an adhesive black coat that allows paint to stick to it.))

Not exactly. Primers are a specific type of paint, that bonds more tightly with the surface than regular paint and provides a slightly roughed surface to enable successive layers of paint to adhere better.

Otherwise, what you're talking about is a basecoat, rather than a primer.


If you're using decent quality acrylic paint (and for all their faults, GW paints fit into that category, as do most miniature paint ranges on the market at the moment) a primer is not really necessary, as acrylic paint bonds extremely well with plastic anyway.




I have models from when I first started playing 40K back in 1994 that were basecoated with regular Chaos Black out of a pot, and the paint has held up to 20 years of gaming just fine. These days, I generally do a basecoat with a regular matte spray paint.

with an airbrush you could do it just fine.

but i think the primer does stick to the plastic better.

and primer is like a buck a can, is a good way to get things started and get things covered. you would waste more hobby paint by skipping the primer.

Your models will not turn out very well. You may have problems with the regular paint adhering to the surface. Primers are made to help the paint dry properly. Without primer It could look blotchy with an uneven sheen. It may turn out lumpy with brush marks. It could flake off sooner rather than later. Primer creates a smooth and consistent layer for the paint to be spread over and to bind onto. It’s a sturdy interface.

 Sammoth wrote:
Your models will not turn out very well.

Not true.

You may have problems with the regular paint adhering to the surface.

Maybe, but acrylic paint will adhere to plastic pretty well without primer because plastic is not a porous material.

Primers are made to help the paint dry properly.

Not really true. Acrylic paint dries perfectly fine on just about any non-porous surface.

Without primer It could look blotchy with an uneven sheen.

That is possible with and without primer. It is fully possible to put a nice coat of acrylic paint over bare plastic.

It may turn out lumpy with brush marks.

Again, that is possible regardless of the use of primer.

It could flake off sooner rather than later.

Yes, this is possible but a coat of primer doesn't make a paint job invulnerable to damage either.

Primer creates a smooth and consistent layer for the paint to be spread over and to bind onto.

True and false, depending on what you are using. A true aerosol primer (not the stuff that GW sells) creates a rough layer for acrylic to bond with which is why primer that is sprayed on properly will still have the underlying material showing through; over priming should be avoided for that very reason. On the other hand, something like gesso and Vallejo Surface Primer are designed to fully cover the surface.

It’s a sturdy interface.

True, to a degree.

While I am most definitely in the "always prime everything" camp, telling someone their models will turn out bad just because they chose not to use a primer is just flat out wrong. OP, if you are looking for a good aerosol primer, I highly suggest Tamiya Surface Primer (also Tamiya Fine Surface Primer). If you live near a Hobby Lobby you can pick a can up for 40% using one their online coupons that are always available. You'll end up getting one of the best primers for about $7, which is a pretty good deal.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but I 'prime' with either VMA matt black or GW Abbadon Black, just to get a consistent basecoat and base colour, so I do reccommend at least covering the model in black (or white, if you prefer) even if not using an actual primer. But personally, just basecoating with black acryllic has worked fine, and I honestly don't like the 'tooth' of actual primer, I find it too rough even when applied lightly.

You can paint fine without priming. Just be aware:

1. While painting you first coat on the model, the paint is more likely to bead up instead of flowing nicely.

2. After the model is done, your paint job is probably more likely to scratch (though after a few coats of varnish I don't know if there'll be much of a difference, I've never tested it).

3. You might not have a smooth consistent base colour to paint over, so your first colour may require more coats of paint to get it looking nice.

If you wash your models in warm water with dishwashing liquid (I just use a soft old toothbrush) and avoid handling them too much between washing them and painting them, that will help with #1 and #2. If you are using a brush on primer instead of a spray primer, #3 will be an issue regardless of whether you prime or not.

#3 is important in the sense that sometimes if you don't prime, you end up doing the same if not more coats of paint anyway. If you prime an appropriate base colour it can mean you actually need less coats of your first colour so the overall amount of work you need to do is actually less, but it obviously depends on the colour.

I typically prime, previously with a spray can, but I ran out of spray cans and have a bottle of Vallejo PU primer which I'm working my way through. There's been times where I was priming a bunch of models and parts and got to the end, cleaned out my airbrush "oh crap, I didn't see those other models over there I needed to prime" and rather than reload the airbrush with primer I just load in the base colour and hit those parts with a couple of extra layers of my base colour. I defy you to figure out which parts they were, they look identical.

Before I got my airbrush some of my Space Wolves I hairy brush painted and didn't prime and again I doubt you could tell which ones they were. But in that case I didn't prime because my base colour was closer to plastic-grey than primer-white or primer-black, so it took less coats of paint to cover the bare plastic than it did to cover a primer.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Sammoth wrote:
Your models will not turn out very well.

Not true.

You may have problems with the regular paint adhering to the surface.

Maybe, but acrylic paint will adhere to plastic pretty well without primer because plastic is not a porous material.

Primers are made to help the paint dry properly.

Not really true. Acrylic paint dries perfectly fine on just about any non-porous surface.

Without primer It could look blotchy with an uneven sheen.

That is possible with and without primer. It is fully possible to put a nice coat of acrylic paint over bare plastic.

It may turn out lumpy with brush marks.

Again, that is possible regardless of the use of primer.

It could flake off sooner rather than later.

Yes, this is possible but a coat of primer doesn't make a paint job invulnerable to damage either.

Primer creates a smooth and consistent layer for the paint to be spread over and to bind onto.

True and false, depending on what you are using. A true aerosol primer (not the stuff that GW sells) creates a rough layer for acrylic to bond with which is why primer that is sprayed on properly will still have the underlying material showing through; over priming should be avoided for that very reason. On the other hand, something like gesso and Vallejo Surface Primer are designed to fully cover the surface.

It’s a sturdy interface.

True, to a degree.

While I am most definitely in the "always prime everything" camp, telling someone their models will turn out bad just because they chose not to use a primer is just flat out wrong. OP, if you are looking for a good aerosol primer, I highly suggest Tamiya Surface Primer (also Tamiya Fine Surface Primer). If you live near a Hobby Lobby you can pick a can up for 40% using one their online coupons that are always available. You'll end up getting one of the best primers for about $7, which is a pretty good deal.

Um yes there is some truth to it. Without primer it could cause some problems. I should of said "MAY" not turn out very well. The fact is why would you not use Primer when it's better for your painting.

Care to jump off my back. I offered my advice to the OP not you. The bottom line is there is no reason not to use it and my advice is not to just paint bare plastic/resin or metal minis.

 Vanguard-13 wrote:

((Also, correct me if I am wrong, Primer is nothing but an adhesive black coat that allows paint to stick to it.))

You can paint without primer, but in this respect you are wrong.
-Primer can also be other colors.
-Some Primers 'Etch" or adhere to the paint surface in a way that is different from acrylic paint. I think it's the VOC's (could be wrong on this), but alot of spray enamel paints and primers actually have enough solvent in them to melt the plastic a teeny bit so it is fused to the model.
-Any paint can stick to most any paint, but primer usually provides more "tooth" than regular paint so the layers on top will stick better.

All this to say, (as others have) primer is not entirely necessary but you will get better adhesion and usually more durability (though a good varnishing can help in this respect) by using a primer. One other method that was used in the past (possibly still) is to put on a layer of black paint (possibly oil based) and then bake the miniature. This only works with metal figs but supposedly made the surface extra strong and durable.

 Sammoth wrote:
The fact is why would you not use Primer when it's better for your painting.

Because it's not always better for your painting.

For me personally, I don't like the texture of most primers. I prefer the flat surface from a regular matte or flat spraypaint.


There's also a better range of colours available in regular paints ... so if you're basecoating your models in anything other than black, white or grey, regular sprays can be much easier to source than primers.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sammoth wrote:
The fact is why would you not use Primer when it's better for your painting.

Because it's not always better for your painting.

For me personally, I don't like the texture of most primers. I prefer the flat surface from a regular matte or flat spraypaint.


There's also a better range of colours available in regular paints ... so if you're basecoating your models in anything other than black, white or grey, regular sprays can be much easier to source than primers.

Yet there are many primers out there that give a nice smooth coat. Maybe it has a lot to do with the primer of your choice. To each is own I guess.

one of my favorite painters paints on bare plastic, and gets amazing results:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?54571-Sproket-s-WIP

the proof is in the pudding, right there...

cheers
jah

 Sammoth wrote:
Care to jump off my back. I offered my advice to the OP not you.

No, you offered bad and down right incorrect advice and I corrected you.

The bottom line is there is no reason not to use it and my advice is not to just paint bare plastic/resin or metal minis.

Like I said, I am also in the "prime everything all the time" camp, but the fact remains that telling someone their minis will look horrible because they didn't prime is not true. In fact, some miniature companies make it a point to explain that primer is not always necessary, like Reaper Bones for instance.

 jah-joshua wrote:
one of my favorite painters paints on bare plastic, and gets amazing results:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?54571-Sproket-s-WIP

the proof is in the pudding, right there...

cheers
jah

Totally agree.

I follow his work as well and it's fantastic. Also, I recall that you don't use primer often yourself, correct?

I've tried all different kinds of things. It's all in what you prefer. I've primed models, I've use colored spray as my base coat, and even now I use just Abbadon black paint thinned slightly (like a thick wash) and do the whole model, then do all my base coats and have had no issues. Trial and error, it's part of the fun of the hobby.

My Pink Horrors (old metal version) were done by applying a red wash directly over the bare metal and then dry-brushing with pink... gave a funky, almost-metallic finish.

I've always found that priming is just something you should do out of habit because it, generally, gives the best results. So long as you're not using a crappy primer that gives bad texture, it won't affect the paint, but will give it something stronger to adhere to. It's the same principle as washing resin that doesn't appear to have any mold release; I'd rather do it and not need to than need to and not do it.

 insaniak wrote:
My Pink Horrors (old metal version) were done by applying a red wash directly over the bare metal and then dry-brushing with pink... gave a funky, almost-metallic finish.

That sounds pretty cool.

Got any pics?

Its not entirely necessary, no. But it can help.

I prime (and wash! Do NOT forget to wash the models!) everything before basecoats just to make sure.

I like to make all my models super tough with plastic glue, pins, topcoat, etc. It takes me weeks to make them, and I plan to use them for a lifetime, so if they cant handle a drop or scratch, then I wont use them.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Sammoth wrote:
Care to jump off my back. I offered my advice to the OP not you.

No, you offered bad and down right incorrect advice and I corrected you.

Uh no you were a jerk about it and it was my opinion about it. Plain and simple. I never once said they would look horrible. Learn to read. You don't have to agree with my opinion and you sure don't need to tear apart my whole post. You really have something wrong with you when you have to do things like that. Must be a superiority complex. I also corrected myself but, here we go again you CAN'T LET IT GO.

Rule #1 guys - please!

And while that Rule is important everywhere, it is ESPECIALLY so here in the P&M Forums - thanks!