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 Gogsnik wrote:
In Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned it says. "The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it. The birth pangs of Slaanesh grew louder and louder as the time of his waking grew near. The Emperor evolved another plan."

In the context of the efficacy of the Astartes there is really not much point in disproving their usefulness in the 41st Millennium because the reason for why they were created wasn't planned for not is it clear what role they would have played had the Horus Heresy not happened, afterall the Thunder Warriors were designed to simply die once they had served their purpose.

Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
I think the timeline has become quite a big mess. I'm not entirely sure WHEN it became a big mess, but it has.

Traditionally, my understanding was:

Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade


But now, it seems to have gotten messy with the Birth of Slaanesh = The Age of Strife. But that just falls down logically, because, how are the Eldar supposed to have conquered the galaxy at the same time as humanity has conquered the galaxy? It makes more sense to me that during humanities colonisation of the galaxy, the Eldar were busy trying to put the shattered remains of their civilisation back together.


As for the efficiency of the Astartes. Yeah, it realy is 'science fiction writers have no sense of scale'. I've tried to rationalise it before even with 'movie marines' but it just doesn't work. Planets are just simply too big. - How many major military installations or command and control networks are there on Earth? The answer is 'lots.'

I mean, not even looking at the 'big boys' in world military super powers, how many marines are you going to send to, say, Germany, to defeat their command and control networks, or to make their military ineffective in a world wide assault of multiple simultaneous devastating deep strikes.

The answer is going to be more than one.


Of course, the 'real' answer would be, bomb the heck out of the planet for a good decade or so before launching your invasion. But that'd be sensible and boring, and the 40k universe doesn't work that way.

That timeline seems way outta wack. Humanity never conquered the galaxy, they colonized millions of planets, but the Eldar colonized a single section (see: Eye of Terror) and dominated the galaxy through diplomacy and war from those few hundred thousand planets.Something to remember, humanity had something like 5 million planets colonized (going off of a 5:1 ratio for Imperium-non-Imperium), give or take a few (million). There are supposedly fifty non-Imperial human worlds for every Imperial world, but I considered that a little off-base, so I went with 5:1 instead of 50:1.

Now, they were spread quite widely, why? Because a.) Their technology rivaled the Eldar b.) They were the biologically weakest race and c.) they were sensible enough to use diplomacy when possible. Their sense of diplomacy allowed them to form allies with Eldar and other alien species (see: DAoT). Now, it is directly stated in quite a few sources that the Fall of the Eldar also marked the fall of the human empires (I'll expand on this one). The primary reason for the Age of Strife (along with Psykers) was that Warp Storms isolated all of the human worlds, with almost no opportunity for human systems to remain in contact with eachother. This, coupled with the Psykers suddenly being born all over the galaxy and succumbing to Enslavers, Daemons, etc. led to humanity being enslaved, slaughtered, etc.

I'd say the timeline is more like War in Heaven -> Eldar Empire -> Pleasure Cults -> Humans begin colonizing/ DAoT begins -> Human Psykers begin evolving; entire worlds destroyed in Enslaver and Daemon invasions/ Age of Strife begins -> Birth of Slaanesh begins/ Fall of Eldar/Warp Storms isolate the galaxy -> Emperor reveals himself, unites earth, and conquers the Sol Solar System -> Great Crusade -> Horus Heresy

Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'

 Compel wrote:
Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'

They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place

The fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh happened around M30. It was the birth of Slaanesh that calmed the warp enough for the Great Crusade to begin.

 Orblivion wrote:
The fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh happened around M30. It was the birth of Slaanesh that calmed the warp enough for the Great Crusade to begin.

Yes, that's what I said. Birth of Slaanesh was what stopped the Warp Storms. It was his birthing process that caused them in the first place, though.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
The fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh happened around M30. It was the birth of Slaanesh that calmed the warp enough for the Great Crusade to begin.

Yes, that's what I said. Birth of Slaanesh was what stopped the Warp Storms. It was his birthing process that caused them in the first place, though.

I should have used quotes, but I wasn't contradicting you I was clarifying for Compel.

eh, not much sense can really be made from angry, human tank, xenophobic religious zealots. Plus when you factor in the balance =/= fluff in Wh40k, space marines make much more sence. IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort. Mind you, not a planet with a multi million strong PDF.

 Brennonjw wrote:
IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort.

No, he can't. A single Marine going rogue is a big problem, but he can't hold any ground alone - the moment he's wiped out the garrison of a small town and moves on, he has no longer 'taken over' that town.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
IN the fluff, a single marine going rogue can take over a world with little effort.

No, he can't. A single Marine going rogue is a big problem, but he can't hold any ground alone - the moment he's wiped out the garrison of a small town and moves on, he has no longer 'taken over' that town.

On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium. Seeing as 80%+ of what most Imperial citizens, even high-up ones, know of Space Marines is myth and hearsay, a single Marine turning up is going to have a huge effect. The governer of said planet is going to do everything he can to accomodate him, and if there are no other Astartes/Inquisitors present, if that one Marine says 'jump', most on the planet are going to ask 'how high', they wouldn't dare disobeying a Marine and it probably wouldn't even cross their minds that he could be lying.

At that point, he can push a populace to the edge of treachery and over it, and the whole while, none would be any the wiser. Heck, if he saves them from a small Ork/DE/indigenious Xenos raid or attack, they're going to be putting up statues of him, loyal to the Emperor or not. With no kinnd of outside information, they are going to trust him completely.

Now, could he hold that world if the Astartes try and take it back? Maybe not, certainly not alone, but give him a month or two and let his reputation spread, and a single Astartes could easily turn a world to openly defying the Imperium, probably without them even knowing until it is too late.

 Paradigm wrote:
On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium.

I don't see how a cosmetic salesman could possibly corrupt a world. :-)

Would your average rogue marine actually come up with such ideas? All he knows is battle and wargear - and those he does know well, no doubt. But politics is for the likes of Chapter Masters and Captains. A trooper would probably just demand food and ammo, maybe transportation so he could continue his escape. And the psycho-indoctrination sits deep. Making a last stand against his pursuers that causes major damage to an Imperial world is not something his conditioning would easily allow for even if he's decided to run.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'

They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place

Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
On the other hand, I do think a single rouge Space Marine could, if given a little time to work with, turn a whole world from the Imperium.

I don't see how a cosmetic salesman could possibly corrupt a world. :-)

Damn typos! And I thought I'd checked!

Would your average rogue marine actually come up with such ideas? All he knows is battle and wargear - and those he does know well, no doubt. But politics is for the likes of Chapter Masters and Captains. A trooper would probably just demand food and ammo, maybe transportation so he could continue his escape. And the psycho-indoctrination sits deep. Making a last stand against his pursuers that causes major damage to an Imperial world is not something his conditioning would easily allow for even if he's decided to run.

I think that if indivual Marines or small groups of them can break their conditioning enough to fall to Chaos or even turn renegade (see Huron, at the start it was lack of loyalty to the IoM rather than outright turning to Chaos) then they can think of turning others that way. Even just tacticallly, they know someone, some time will come for them, and they know they'll need an army when that happens, so it doesn't take genius-level intellect to put together that fact and the fact that you have a population of millions that will obey and accomodate their every wish.

Obviously it varies from Marine to Marine what his aim is, open rebellion or just freedom, but I certainly think it is within the realm of possibility that a single Marine could turn a populace.

 Paradigm wrote:
Obviously it varies from Marine to Marine what his aim is, open rebellion or just freedom, but I certainly think it is within the realm of possibility that a single Marine could turn a populace.

Possible, granted. But it would take a pretty special marine. Huron did his stuff out of pride (and maybe possession), thinking the Imperium unfairly demanded too much tribute from the worlds he controlled. And he was backed by his own overstrength Chapter and a few others, indebted to him for wargear and supplies. He still had to sway them a bit more with a speech about Space Marine rights, which "the High Lords are trying to take away".

Telling some random Imperial Governor to go against the very High Lords that keep him in power is going to take a lot of persuasion, and a marine is not an Inquisitor. He could perhaps kill the Governor and proclaim himself ruler, but that would lead to chaos - he needs the Governor's bureaucrats to rule and they're also the guys looking to take over as Governor. IMO a lone marine or a single squad would have much smaller goals, like surviving until tomorrow and stockpiling enough supplies that they don't need to sacrifice the last of their honor quite yet. I could see them agreeing to work for that Governor, however. Just keep them out of any official reports and help them with tech support, you have your own marine kill team. Their influence could grow over time ofc, to the point that they are making suggestions on policy. But that's not a matter of a few weeks.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'

They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place

Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.

No, but they WERE the most powerful, and had the most influence

 dusara217 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Conquered, colonised. 'You'll find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon a certain point of view'

They undoubtedly conquered quite a few of those worlds, but they didn't dominate the galaxy. The Eldar were the undisputed rulers of the galaxy, and the humans were just carving out their own place

Not really. The elder empire was the area now known as the eye of terror, with scattered maiden worlds around the galaxy. They were not in charge of the whole galaxy.

No, but they WERE the most powerful, and had the most influence

While they were powerful, they were rivaled by mankind during the Dark Age of Technology, only their psychic power was greater. Technologically mankind was superior.

Nobody technologically surpasses DAoT mankind besides the Necrons. The Eldar were also content to wallow in their hedonistic ways without much concern for the rest of the galaxy. They were not ruling the galaxy in any way, shape, or form.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Technologically mankind was superior.

Nobody technologically surpasses DAoT mankind besides the Necrons.

Sauce?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Technologically mankind was superior.

Nobody technologically surpasses DAoT mankind besides the Necrons.

Sauce?

I'd want to point at a magical ship that survived inside of a sun inside the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years as a sign of DAoT superiority, but then the Eldar had that entire revenant world with a black hole at its heart.

Honestly, I may have to give this one to the Eldar.

There is an Ark Mechanicus which has a gun that creates a black hole at the target. Black Hole gun>Black Hole containment.

I'll demote my timeline thoughts to head canon then, as otherwise the Eldar are really treated massively unfairly. - Ruled the stars, pffft.

Anyhow, I'll add it to my head canon that Slaanesh's birth triggered the Roman Empire falling into decadence and eventually mankinds own dark age. - yes I'm quite happy to take Empty as the inspiration for the legend of St George too.

Mind you, in my head canon as well, I have Star Trek basically existing (in broad strokes anyhow) at the same time as the show.

But the thing is... When you start talking in terms of millenia the whole peace and democracy thing only lasts so long in the face of enemies like the orks and other nasties in the 40k galaxy. Eventually alliances fail, allies start turning on each other, friend starts turning on friend. Isolationists gain power, borders are closed.... Wars break out and the only ones left standing are the meanest, toughest, nastiest factions around. And then the Age of Strife begins and things start to actually go wrong.

But yeah, that's headcanon

 Compel wrote:

Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade

In the Realm of Chaos books, the predators of the Warp only became a real threat roughly 10,000BC, prompting the Shamen to create the New Man (later known as the Emperor). Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were created by humans as they spread across the Earth but seem to have had little impact. The Eldar descent into hedonism took tens of thousands of years but Slaanesh only began to gestate as a power after humanity had already carved out an empire which was then torn apart by the madness unleashed by the growing Slaanesh, the period known as the Age of Strife, ending with the birth of Slaanesh just prior to the Great Crusade (this is what the Emperor was waiting for). The birth of Slaanesh was almost instantaneous, his form spilling through the minds of the Eldar and into the material universe creating all of the scattered zones of Warp/Real Space overlaps, the Eye of Terror being the most significant.

This is somewhat muddied by the first Necron Codex which has the War in Heaven, sixty million years before the Great Crusade, causing the upheavels that created Chaos/daemons/some-sort-of-proto-Chaos. That all ended with the Enslaver Plague, again, roughly sixty million years ago.

With the current Necron background that is again changed, the Enslaver Plague only obliquely mentioned, if at all, with the Silent King and the Necron rebellion against the C'tan now responsible for the Necron hibernation, not the Enslaver Plague.

None of that precludes humanity creating the first three Chaos Gods as per the older RoC background since, due to the nature of the Warp, the Chaos Gods can be simultaneously young and ancient. It would also seem that, even with the various additions to the material provided by the Horus Heresy novels, the older RoC background, in terms of the origins of the Emperor, the Primarchs, the Astartes is still the basis for all the subsequent background.

 dusara217 wrote:

Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).

The functional immortality or otherwise of the Astartes is irrelevant. They were not purposefully designed, they were created out of necessity in order for the Emperor to begin His reconquest of the galaxy.

The Chaos Powers had no intention of killing the Emperor, going back through time or any such thing. With the events of Vengeful Spirit it is clear that the Emperor treated with the Chaos Powers and won their support, then He betrayed them; naturally enough seen as how He was created by the Shamen as the ultimate weapon against Chaos.

Neither was there an absolute victory for Chaos since they had invested themselves twice into mortal pawns, one of which was utterly annihilated, weakening the Chaos Gods greatly and, if the Star Child still exists, and there is no reason to suppose it does not, then the Emperor could be reinvigorated at any point or severed the mortal realm completely, finally able to disperse into the Warp where, depending on your view point, the Star Child would destroy/amalgamate the Chaos Gods ending their threat forever.

Again, there are also various other factors to consider such as the Emperor's original intention to create a new super-race with the Primarchs being only the first and the shadow point beyond which the Emperor could not see the future, which, when taken into conjunction with the scattering of the foetal Primarchs, could have ended at that point when the Emperor allowed Chaos to spirit them away, seeing His eventual ascension to godhood as a better way to ultimately defeat Chaos.

We can only speculate on what the Emperor may have intended but there are enough hints in the Horus Heresy novels to show that the Emperor was not merely reacting to the actions of the Chaos Powers nor what, if any of that is true, His intentions were for the eventual fate of the Astartes. Yes, the Astartes were cobbled together after the Primarchs were lost but the Emperor could have allowed that to become a reality abandoning all His previous plans once He was able to see the future again. In any event the Space Marines and even the Primarchs were only a means to an end for the Emperor.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 Compel wrote:

Eldar conquer galaxy -> Fall of the Eldar ~= early Evolution of Humanity -> Final Fall of the Eldar / Birth of Slaanesh ~= The birth of the Emperor -> The rise of 'civilisation' (With the Emperor pulling the strings, old example is him being not Jesus, but actually was John the Baptist) -> Modern time -> The Dark Age of Technology -> Humanity conquers the galaxy -> The Age of Strife -> The Enslaver Plague ~= Warp Storms seal off Earth -> The Emperor reveals himself and reunifies Terra -> Great Crusade

In the Realm of Chaos books, the predators of the Warp only became a real threat roughly 10,000BC, prompting the Shamen to create the New Man (later known as the Emperor). Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were created by humans as they spread across the Earth but seem to have had little impact. The Eldar descent into hedonism took tens of thousands of years but Slaanesh only began to gestate as a power after humanity had already carved out an empire which was then torn apart by the madness unleashed by the growing Slaanesh, the period known as the Age of Strife, ending with the birth of Slaanesh just prior to the Great Crusade (this is what the Emperor was waiting for). The birth of Slaanesh was almost instantaneous, his form spilling through the minds of the Eldar and into the material universe creating all of the scattered zones of Warp/Real Space overlaps, the Eye of Terror being the most significant.

This is somewhat muddied by the first Necron Codex which has the War in Heaven, sixty million years before the Great Crusade, causing the upheavels that created Chaos/daemons/some-sort-of-proto-Chaos. That all ended with the Enslaver Plague, again, roughly sixty million years ago.

With the current Necron background that is again changed, the Enslaver Plague only obliquely mentioned, if at all, with the Silent King and the Necron rebellion against the C'tan now responsible for the Necron hibernation, not the Enslaver Plague.

None of that precludes humanity creating the first three Chaos Gods as per the older RoC background since, due to the nature of the Warp, the Chaos Gods can be simultaneously young and ancient. It would also seem that, even with the various additions to the material provided by the Horus Heresy novels, the older RoC background, in terms of the origins of the Emperor, the Primarchs, the Astartes is still the basis for all the subsequent background.

I find it difficult to believe that it took 60 million years for the Gods of Chaos to evolve. I mean, that's just such a vast period of time, even 1 million years would see a bit far fetched (though far more plausible) to me. Other than that though, this sounds far easier to swallow than the Eldar Gods battling Chaos for 60 mil years and then suddenly all getting eaten by a single God (except for c. 3 of them, out of an entire pantheon)

 dusara217 wrote:

Yes, but the Astartes were designed to be biologically immortal (and I'm not arguing this point right now, I've argued it in almost a dozen previous threads and it is more than possible, and probable), so they were clearly designed to both conquer the galaxy and ,probably, police it. I mean, it's not like Chaos would just roll over and die, they would fight like cornered Wolves before fading into oblivion. If necessary, they'd travel back in time to ensure that the Emperor died or became a daemon long before he even conceived the idea of Primarchs. As it is, Chaos accomplished an absolute victory and have been steadily gaining power over the last ten millenia in this state of almost constant war and chaos (though the majority of the Imperium is fairly stable and peaceful).

The functional immortality or otherwise of the Astartes is irrelevant. They were not purposefully designed, they were created out of necessity in order for the Emperor to begin His reconquest of the galaxy.

The Chaos Powers had no intention of killing the Emperor, going back through time or any such thing. With the events of Vengeful Spirit it is clear that the Emperor treated with the Chaos Powers and won their support, then He betrayed them; naturally enough seen as how He was created by the Shamen as the ultimate weapon against Chaos.

Neither was there an absolute victory for Chaos since they had invested themselves twice into mortal pawns, one of which was utterly annihilated, weakening the Chaos Gods greatly and, if the Star Child still exists, and there is no reason to suppose it does not, then the Emperor could be reinvigorated at any point or severed the mortal realm completely, finally able to disperse into the Warp where, depending on your view point, the Star Child would destroy/amalgamate the Chaos Gods ending their threat forever.

Again, there are also various other factors to consider such as the Emperor's original intention to create a new super-race with the Primarchs being only the first and the shadow point beyond which the Emperor could not see the future, which, when taken into conjunction with the scattering of the foetal Primarchs, could have ended at that point when the Emperor allowed Chaos to spirit them away, seeing His eventual ascension to godhood as a better way to ultimately defeat Chaos.

We can only speculate on what the Emperor may have intended but there are enough hints in the Horus Heresy novels to show that the Emperor was not merely reacting to the actions of the Chaos Powers nor what, if any of that is true, His intentions were for the eventual fate of the Astartes. Yes, the Astartes were cobbled together after the Primarchs were lost but the Emperor could have allowed that to become a reality abandoning all His previous plans once He was able to see the future again. In any event the Space Marines and even the Primarchs were only a means to an end for the Emperor.

My point was that, if the Emperor meant for Astartes to be expendable, he would've given them a time limit instead of making them last for thousands of years

We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.

 Psienesis wrote:
We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.

Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day

 Psienesis wrote:
We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.

before I respond, How are you describing "super advanced" ages? just so everyone is on the same page.

I totally watched Ep 2-3 for the Clones, best darn thing to come out of those movies.

And my favorite LOTR stuff are the Gondorian soldiers.

And uh... yeah, go red-shirts!

 dusara217 wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that it took 60 million years for the Gods of Chaos to evolve. I mean, that's just such a vast period of time, even 1 million years would see a bit far fetched (though far more plausible) to me. Other than that though, this sounds far easier to swallow than the Eldar Gods battling Chaos for 60 mil years and then suddenly all getting eaten by a single God (except for c. 3 of them, out of an entire pantheon)

Personally, this is why I feel so much of the background presented in the first Codex: Necrons is a steaming pile of grox dung. However, as I pointed out, current Necron background retcons the retcon, which was ambiguous to begin with; it hints at the beginning of Chaos but does not say one way or the other specifically and ended with the Enslaver Plague, Enslavers being warp creatures it makes it that much more difficult to put any definite interpretation on just what the smeg any of that Necron background was truly talking about.

The only thing to keep in mind is the timeless nature of the Warp and just what the Eldar Gods were. It's easier to imagine it with the old warpr storm analogy rather than the Greek God style GW went with at one point. If the Eldar gods, as manifestations of the Eldar psyche within the Warp, where in so far as these manifestations are sentient they are also a storm or warp energy. When Slaanesh was born it consumed all of the souls of the Eldar who are the basis for the gods and they had also been moving away from their worship of the old pantheon, further weakening their link with the old gods and when final fully born Slaanesh as the new, mightier manifestation of the Eldar consumed not only their souls but the gods already built by those souls. Those gods now are part of Slaanesh and if we return to the warp storm idea of how these gods exist then they are like dust devils within a cyclone.

It still doesn't preclude mankind creating the other three, these are manifestations of mankind's thoughts, dreams, souls, desires et cetera and despite what had ever come before in the universe no other race was as chaotic (small c) as humanity to enough of an extent to create such evil and destructive gods; until the Eldar finally made one of their own. Which is why the Cabal in the Horus Heresy novels want to sacrifice humanity, they probably don't have any connection with the Chaos Gods (except the Eldar members of course) and see humanity as the threat they are. Even Gork and Mork aren't that bad.

My only thing with this whole idea is that, like some people have already stated, is that GW and BL authors tend to have no bloody sense of scale. They really don't. I always thought SM chapters were way too small at 1,000 men. I thought heresy era legions were a much more reasonable number and the average legion size was between 80,000 and 100,000 brothers.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.

Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day

What would be the point in giving you such an example if you’re just going to ignore it? I remember giving you a distinct example of an aged space marine, which you conveniently ignored in favor of that immortality fantasy of yours.

So what’s the point in arguing this with you?

You're awfully condescending considering that his stance, too, is canon.

But obviously anyone disagreeing with your view on toy soldier made-up lifespan is moronic?

From what I understand, Space Marines don't really die of old age. I mean, how old is Commander Dante of the Blood Angels? Over a thousand years old? He doesn't appear to have lost any step. The fact is, Space Marines usually die in combat before they get very aged anyway so we'll never really know.