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Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.

Not to mention humans are constantly referred to as "mortals" by space marines and I doubt they're calling them that for the hell of it. But...one thing confuses me. There are space marines that do appear to have aged somehow because if you played SM, Sedonus looked like the equivalent of a 60 year old human man. He sure as hell wasn't recruited by the chapter when he was frakkin 50 so it doesn't make much sense. I understand the designer wanted to give Sedonus a wise look to him but it clashes with everything. He's not the only one tho, Iacton Qruze (a friend of Loken) was described as having looked older with white hair.

Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.

And besides, Loken didn’t explain how they were immortal. He was merely saying that for all he knew they could possibly be immortal. Captain or not, to me Loken seems to be entirely ignorant on the matter of a space marine’s lifespan.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.

What Loken explained is that with their technology, nobody could actually tell whether or not the Astartes were aging at all. That is very different from being flat out told that they are immortal.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.

There was at least some semblance of a reason to keep daemons secret.

Keeping SM lifespan secret from high-ranking SM has no rational reason.

Mind you, it's possible for them to age - it does not have to mean they die from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Continuing on the logic of Space Marines, it is often mindlessly repeated that 'If Space Marines were too large, they could not efficiently fight in their environment.'

This fails to take into account the sci-fi nature of the setting. In Halo, the Sangheili average at ~8', and they have zero issue whatsoever even in human environments.

With the gothic, monumental design of 40K structures and spaceships, even the largest of Space Marine-sources would not give them any real issues operating where they are supposed to.

On the subject of canon, it's worth remembering that for 40k. There is no canon.

Everything you've been told is a lie.

Take and pick what you want, however you want, it's all in the name of making and writing epic stories and, most importantly of all, selling more plastic toys.

True, of course.

Ok, here is my shot at Space Marine Logic.

1st: physical attributes (without armor)

1) Without their power armors, their average strength is comparable about 20% greater than that of the strongest none augmented human. With their power armour, it's about 50%. They are very fast when it comes to hand eye coordination and reflex, but this is mostly due to their training not their physiology. Only the best human can keep up with them in that field. They can run around 40 kilometers per hour on sprint and can sustain intense physical effort for at least ten times longer than a non-augmented human. Their heavy frame and fused rib-cage makes them less flexible than the average human, but doesn't cripple them that much. They would score «low» on standard flexibility test.

2) Their average size out of their armour is about 7 feet tall and they weight around 400 pounds. Their bones are about has tough has iron and they do possess impressive capacity well described by their augmented organs. They have near perfect night vision and can see further than human. They would score around 14/10 on vision test. Their earing is comparable to that of a cat and it's about has hard to daze them. They can breathe underwater and support pressure up to fifty times that of Earth without suffering massive damage or death (about 500 meters below sea level). They form scar tissues in three minutes or less. Their acid spit reacts to air in about five second and burns like battery acid.

3) Their pain sensitivity is rather normal, but their resistance threshold is very high (higher than that of most human comparatively speaking). They heal four times faster than human on average and can regenerate nervous tissue and even regrow lost fingers or toes with time. They are immune to most human disease and don't have their own even if it's theorical possible. They can resist most poison, but they can still feel minor symptoms like pain, swellings, light fevers, etc. Hemotoxic venom are more dangerous to them then neurotoxic ones unlike human. They can live for centuries if not millennia, but geneseed quality, origin can influence that greatly. Space Marines are sterilised, but if they were not, would be incapable of reproducing with a human female due to genetic differences.

4) They need frequent medical check-up to prevent mutation, hormonal disbalancement and erratic behaviors. They need extremely high caloric diets, but can survive several weeks without food by consuming their muscle mass. They need carefully balanced diets to remain in top condition, but can survive on almost anything edible. Space Marines mental health is naturally fragile, due to their anatomy and are prone to bouts of rage, melancholia, hysteria, dementia, obsessions or anti-social behaviors without good medical and psychological care. Their unnatural resistence to fear is the only exception. Their training forges them in stern and resilient combattant, but they must fight against their natural weakness all the time.

2nd: weapons and armours

1) Space Marines Power Armour are about half the weight of the Space Marine himself and offer perfect protection against low to medium caliber projectile weapons (stub riffles to heavy stubber), low power laser weapons (lasguns), shrapnel (frag grenade), small explosive devices (homemade explosives). The plates can withstand those weapons for extand period of time with very little damage. The joints can still be damaged (which can lead to injuries or death), but more than one shot may be necessary. It provides acceptable protection against bolt weapons and light canon shells, but cannot withstand them for long period without taking massive damage. The joints are vulnerable to these weapons and offer little protection. Most «modern» close combat weapons (chain weapons and mono-edge weapons) can scar the plates but only repeated blows with an individual of tremendous strength and good technic could pierce the plates. Joins are vulnerable to such weapons and offer little protection against a well-placed blow, but can protect from minor cuts. Shocking close combat weapons (like arbites baton or navy swords) have no special effect on power armors. They offer no significant protection against melta or plasma weapons and neither against high thermal charge of las weapons like hot-shot lasguns or lascanon. Only the most powerful flamers and an exposition to it for more than five second can damage the armour and its wearer. The armor improves the strength of the Space Marines and doesn't slow down his movement or reduce his endurance thanks to the Black Carapace interface, but it does slow a bit their running speed due to the configuration of their boots. The armour recycle dejections to provide water to the wearer of the armour and can be autonomous for periods of up to three months before they need to recharge. The helmet provide tactical information, communication device, different types of vision and an interface with the machine spirit for communion and status reports.

2) The bolter is a standard weapon design to be used has a light weapon that doesn't require a stock to handle recoil. It, shoots armour piercing explosive device that act much like a small missile. Space Marines bolters are larger than human ones by about 20% (just like their close combat weapon) due to a heavier frame that can withstand a rougher use (like smashing people in close combat with it) and a larger grip for the unusually large hands of the Space marines, but are otherwise identical when it comes to destructive power and magasine capacity. All bolter have three firing mods (single shot, short burst and full auto). They are very precise weapons, but need a lot of maintenance and are prone to jamming, especially in full auto. A single bolt can explode a body completly if the bolt pierce the target normaly and hit it close to the torso or belly. It usually causes death with a single shot on creature the size of human (shot in the hands or feet can lead to dismemberment, but some victims have survived it), but have proven to be incapable to stop an ork boyz with a single shot on several occasions.

3rd Space Marines training

1) Space Marines are recruited on various worlds by experimented members of their Chapter from boys between the ages of 7 to 13 (13 has been descibed has the prime age for implantation of the geneseed). They recruit the most healthy and promising amongst them by subjecting them to a battery of physical, mental and psychological test that can be particularly traumatising and deadly. Those who past will be implanted with the geneseed paired with extensive session of indoctrination using various technics, from hypnosis trance, to mind-numbing exercises. Those who survive may join the ranks of the scouts. Before joining a scout squad, the young Space Marine, will pass through another series of brutal test to make sure of its quality and he will be evaluated by scout masters who will then choose their next pupils. Scout masters are veteran marines with decades if not century of experience who dedicate themselves to training new Space Marines. They are exceptional teachers and never hesitate to place their charge in middle of the fight to test their skills. Scout training time may vary a lot but usually last a decade. Space Marines are amongst if not the most heavily trained combatant in the Imperium.

2) Space Marines training is made to shape them in a versatile fighting machine that uses his wits more than its brawn. They master various style of combat, weapons and tactics and are always ready to make decision by themselves should things go wrong. Martial pride, honor, duty and loyalty to the Chapters and your brothers are the most exalted values, making them exceptionally brave almost to the point of fearlessness due to their physiology, if not sometimes risk taking, stubborn of vainglorious. Chapter tradition varies a lot, but most of them fit in that categorie.

4th Space Marine organisation

1) Space Marines operate in tribal like organisation called Chapters that number around a 1000 active Space Marines outside ship, craft and tank crew has well has scouts. Surrounding those 1000 or so Space Marines are Chapter serfs who can follow them into battle if needed, but usually provide logistical support. Serfs are well trained and equipped soldiers usually drawn from failed recruits who still did well. They usually outnumber their Space Marine masters a 100 to one. All Chapter control a small fleet of war ships capable of transporting them and fight deep space battle efficiently. Most Chapter will also hold a planet they use has fortress, recruitment and training ground. They have full control of their planet and need to pay no respect to any other imperial organisation beside a gene tithe. They are completely autonomous when it comes to their maintenance and deployment. Chapters are restricted in their numbers to prevent them from overpowering their Imperial Masters though some very rare chapter break those rule (usually with bad consequences for them).

2) Space Marines are used to crush rebellion in their early fires, fight off pirates and marauding bands and watch the Imperium «borders» for xenos invaders. They also serve at the tip of any major conflict has elite commandos, heavy infantry or guards for important officers. Most of the times, Space Marines deploy in battle groups or companies. Companies are numbering in around a 100 fighting man with additional tanks and air support if needed while battle groups can be larger and draw of more than one company. They do operate alone on regular occasion usually has first response units. Their most common tactics is to strike at the enemy command structure and leadership after bombarding from orbit their fortifications and other strategical assets. A single company can force a entire planet to surrender simply by destroying its major city from orbit and conducting drop pod assaults on their key palace or fortification to kill their leaders. Most worlds surrender after a few weeks of this treatment or reinforcements are on their way to make them compliant. The Imperium doesn't occupy territory. It only ask for pledge of allegiance and tithe. They do not seek to fully control a planet socio-economical structure like many empires do.

Conclusion?

Space Marine are amongst the best individual combatant in the galaxy, wear impressive weapons and armour, cost almost nothing to the Imperium in term of infrastructure, production and maintenance cost are always ready to fight and can react and deploy to fight any enemy much faster than any other imperial military forces. They also are the most versatile. They possess enough ships to fight in the void and enough man power to pose a threat to enemy ground force. Of course their small numbers makes them incapable of causing massive damage by themselves, but it's a bit the point considering the damage they caused last time they did. Any comments on my descriptive?

I like it, makes Marines obviously better than standard humans without stepping into the mindlessly stupid territory.

I disagree with a lot of your stats, but then, I go with the 9' calc. So this all is just how I see it.

I calculated avg. Marine weight to 744 pounds by running square-cube law on an elite strongman competitor. Then I added 220ish pounds to represent the fact that they are supposed to have super-dense bones and muscles and so on.

End result is 964 lb, or about 1300-1400 ish in armour and with full equipment.

Marine high-speed feats are consistent enough to estimate ~75 kph sprint, and ~50 kph long-distance running. They are easily capable of pushing, lifting and carrying several tons if need be, though it may encumber them.

Even without armour their skin and bones are tough enough to resist most small arms fire and once you factor in armour small arms end up becoming quite unviable weapons on their own. Thanks to the ceramic (and thus extremely heat-resistant by definition) nature of Power Armour, Space Marines are surprisingly resistant against melta and plasma weapons, although they certainly hurt. Their bones are tough, but the flexibility in between them is still good, so they can do some contortion if needed (although armour stops that, even if they needed it.)

PA is comparable to MBT plating versus small arms fire, and can resist everything up to and including autocannon rounds very well. Their armour resists their own weapons, so SM versus CSM fights can take quite some time as they focus on defense and try to hit each other's soft armour. Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots and scythe down vast numbers of unarmoured foes on full auto, although Orks are often hardy enough to survive the massive tissue damage caused by a hit and fight on despite the grotesque resulting wound.

Against tanks, even without special weapons, Space Marines have many options. If nothing else, they can rip up the side of a tank (like tearing off a turret) and throw in a frag grenade. Obviously melee is risky so they have kraks which are also effective, and of course with some good aim even the normal bolter can do quite some damage.

Basically, this.

Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

I am of the opinion that marines are immortal.

There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.

So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I am of the opinion that marines are immortal.

There has never been a marine who died of natural causes, we've had well over ten thousand years to see if they do.

So really, until we see a marine die of old age they're immortal for all practical purposes.

I agree with this. If a Space Marine had died of age, it would have been such a major event so it's weird it has never been mentioned.

@Ashiraya

Your vision of the Space Marines seems to me like a justification of the some the worst elements about marines fiction (commonly refered has movie marines) which are filled with literary language and exagerations for the sake of a good novel. It's like in «La Chanson de Roland» or Ered and Enid (two piece of medieval litterature). They describe the protagonists, one of them who's an actual historical figure. has cutting throught the ranks of the ennemy like weat, killing three men with each stroke of their swords until they got blood up to their knees. That's of course literary language to describ them has incredible warriors, not a litteral account of their deeds because you and I can clearly see it makes no sense. I think it's the same thing with a Space Marine. Since GW fluff is designed to be taken has propaganda, Space Marines powers are therefore exagerated. The «real ones» would be less powerful, but still capable of superhuman feets. Thus my description. I could also present piece of fiction like the attack of the Khorn berzerkers in Ghostmaker to present you about 20 veteran Chaos Marines killed by guardsmen without to much casualty on their side despite the fact that the Marines were ambushing them has a vision of Space Marines completly opposite to yours and it would be just has reliable.

In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.

epronovost wrote:
worst elements about marines fiction

I disagree.

Edit: Honestly, the very point of 40K fluff is that you can cherrypick what you like. Telling others that their opinion is wrong is not going to work any better in a discussion here than it would in a discussion between two fans of different football teams!

epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

Spoiler:

Your vision of the Space Marines seems to me like a justification of the some the worst elements about marines fiction (commonly refered has movie marines) which are filled with literary language and exagerations for the sake of a good novel. It's like in «La Chanson de Roland» or Ered and Enid (two piece of medieval litterature). They describe the protagonists, one of them who's an actual historical figure. has cutting throught the ranks of the ennemy like weat, killing three men with each stroke of their swords until they got blood up to their knees. That's of course literary language to describ them has incredible warriors, not a litteral account of their deeds because you and I can clearly see it makes no sense. I think it's the same thing with a Space Marine. Since GW fluff is designed to be taken has propaganda, Space Marines powers are therefore exagerated. The «real ones» would be less powerful, but still capable of superhuman feets. Thus my description. I could also present piece of fiction like the attack of the Khorn berzerkers in Ghostmaker to present you about 20 veteran Chaos Marines killed by guardsmen without to much casualty on their side despite the fact that the Marines were ambushing them has a vision of Space Marines completly opposite to yours and it would be just has reliable.

In my opinion, your description would make them so heavy they would be incapable of fighting in a building with their armor on without crumbling the floor, so tall they would not fit in a bunker or a ship design for human (or Tau). Much of their strength would be wasted potential (you don't need to be so strong to be good). Your power armors are inconceivable to me. If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar fonction, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place? Of what are made tanks like Leman Russ (heavy tanks) if they can't resist to weapons that a almost humen size Marine can and why would they not be made of a similar material? Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them? I would also note that elite strongman makes very poor fighter because of their lack of flexibility, disbalanced proportion, poor coordination and stiffness. You should look at a MMA heavy weigth to have an more realistic impression of a very strong person who can fight very well. Your running speed would make them about has fast than their rhinos transport (and their armor more resistent then it's hull) according to the same fluff. They even run faster than land raiders. Whats he point of them. Your calculation of 9 feets seems to be in direct contradiction with their codex who states an average of 7 feets (of course a 9 feet marine would be imaginable, but would be like a 7 foot tall men today). If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carabine, pulse rifle and carabine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do? All of this seems to make no sense to me, contradict our least partisan information and put Space Marines head and shoulders over everybody else which in my opinion is both wrong and rather stupid when we look at what the other races and soldiers they fight against.

Don't write walls of text. Use a linebreak somewhere please

Since GW fluff is designed to be taken as propaganda

Thats not true. GW fluff should be seen as possible propaganda. It may or may not be true. That is an important distinction. There is no need to exaggerate many feats that marines do.

Since Sororitas power armors are very similar in terms of offered protection (if not identical if you read their codex) then how do you kill one of them?

Again, not true at all. Sororites Power Armor is only identical in terms of the Ceramite plating. But there is much more to it than that. Space Marine Power Armor contains many more life support, medical, and other tertiary systems. Then you have the marine himself who is far far more sturdy than a lowly human.

A sister's armor might withstand an impact, but the kinetic force was still more than enough to cause fatal internal damage. Damage a marine would have easily withstood due to his superior body. You don't need to penetrate armor to kill whats inside, you only need to transfer energy into the organs to cause internal bleeding and hydrostatic shock.

If they can resist a few melta blast designed to blow heavy tanks or plasma weapons who have a similar function, how can we mold their plates and build them in the first place?

The same way we can make modern tank armor capable of taking hits from missiles and 120mm tank rounds.

If bolters are so powerfull, what can a melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine and so many others who are supposed to be even more powerful can do?

This doesn't even make sense, like much of your post. Please explain a little clearer.

@Ashiraya

Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that. That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.

@Grey Templar

Well our tank plating is made of steel. They explode rather easily when shot by anti-tank weapons like rocket launcher or specilised tank ammunition. Missiles and 120mm tank round have the bad habit of destroying tanks rather easily they were made for that after all. Steel can be molded a a temperature of around 400 degree celcius and bend rather easily. Let see what a material like ceramite would be like if it was has tough than Ashiraya would imagine it.

Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.

A temperature so high is capable of melting your atoms and make new elements. There would be nothing left of you. If such a material is possible, how would you produce it? Steel plates are heated and molted into shapes, such a material would be impossible to forge even in the heart of a star.

If it can also withstand canon shells that can pulverise concrete and steal and still protect it's wearer, it's also incredibly hard so you can't just hammer it in the shape you want. I can't imagine a factorie capable of producing any of these armours let alone repair them.

Has for the gun issue, melta gun, plasma gun, autocanon, assault canon, heavy flamer, missile launcher, multilaser, avengers shuriken catapults, gauss flayer, tesla carbine, pulse rifle and carbine are all more powerfull than Space Marines bolters according to the fluff. How strong would they need to be if a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?

epronovost wrote:
Well if you want a discussion you will have to accept that people will disagree with you and present their reason for that.

There's a difference between 'My opinion is different, I think X' and 'your opinion is stupid'.

That's what I just did and that's what you did with my own post. I don't think you will ever see Space Marines has creatures that can be killed by a «normal» human while I do think so. The point was to make Space Marines consistent, logic and reasonnable in the setting in a very different way then yours which I think fail to be logical and consistent with the rest of what we know. Of course you are can completly go with your version, that's the beauty of fiction.

Loaded premise. You're assuming that your stance is the consistent, logical and reasonable one, and that anything else isn't. NOTHING is consistent in 40k, bar a few numbers (like there being a million marines, a million imperial worlds and a thousand chapters).

Now let say I shoot a weapon that project a ball of fire of 10 000 000 degree celcius that will burn you for several seconds. That's what a plasma weapon does if we must believe what we can read abou it. If you survive to it, that means that the plating of the armour not only resisted to such incredible heat, but managed to remain relatively cool so that you didn't suffered burns.

The thing is, if we are to believe that a plasma bolt is indeed as hot as the heart of a star, then a bolt of its size is enough to wipe out the entire battlefield. Is that consistent, logical, and reasonable?

epronovost wrote:
a single bolt can pulverise a human size creature and blow a tank and why would Space Marines use them?

You are attributing claims to me that I have not made.

epronovost wrote:


@Grey Templar

Well our tank plating is made of steel.

No its not. Its made out of a classified ceramic/metal compound called Chobham Composite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour

I'm just gonna leave this here... It seems relevant.

That man would have made a fine Space Marine, I imagine.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That man would have made a fine Space Marine, I imagine.

He certainly could have done with an Oolitic Kidney, that's for sure. (If you get the reference, don't say anything )

@Grey Templar

It still is a composite metal made mostly of steel because of it's rusting patterns. But you are right on that point. It's not steel plate the way I have described it. Thanks for the info BTW. Now is that composite layer of metal and ceramic resistent to nuclear fire or massive explosion? Not that much and certainly not in a personnal armour form. Tanks are tougher than Marines, melta guns and plasma guns destroy tanks reliably and fast. So they logically are overkill against marines. That's the core of my argument.

@Ashiraya

My point wasn't to insult you, but present why I think you fail at your own objective of consistancy and logic. I don't think my hypothesis is the only possible one, I simply think it's better than yours. I could well be wrong and you right, but has of now, I don't think you made any convincing point to demonstrate how my hypothesis is inferior to yours.

I will still be interested in what you have to say further of course. I will stress that again, we are having a little debate on a fictionnal universe creature. I don't mean to disrespect you in any way and all my attacks are directed at your arguments and not you personnaly. I am very sorry if you felt personnaly attacked by my rebutal.

To your question about plasma weapons, I would reply that they could indeed kill more than one person with a single plasma shot (like a bullet passing though a lot of target), but they loose energy quickly and dissipate quickly. Their range is about 300 to 400 meters before they dissipate (consistent with the threat range of am assault rifle), but faster if they hit something consistent like a big target. I would see it conceivable for a Marine to survive a plasma shot if he was far enough. They do are the most deadly personnal weapon fluff wise I think.

So here are my questions to you:

PS: those are your own words for bolters: «Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots». If a bolt can do that, what can the more powerfull weapons I have cited earlier can do?

How would you build a power armour if it's has hard has you can?

How can Space Marines fight against kroots or Tau on their ships if they are 9 foot tall?

How can they fight in buildings design for human?

How do you explain the instences where Space Marines were killed by normal human or xenos?

What de you need to reliably and efficently kill them?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
We have very, very few examples (and all of those are exceptional) of Astartes living to super-advanced ages, and a consistent history telling us that Space Marines of one specific geneseed live longer lives than the rest of them do.

Loo, I'm really not in the mood to argue this right now, so all I will say is that until we have examples of Astartes aging, then I will remain convinced of their biological immortality, as biologically immortality is possible, we understand how it could be done (though we lack the technology), and thus it is more than plausible for the Emperor to create warriors that are biologically immortal. Now, I am done arguing this part of Astartes, so good day

What would be the point in giving you such an example if you’re just going to ignore it? I remember giving you a distinct example of an aged space marine, which you conveniently ignored in favor of that immortality fantasy of yours.

So what’s the point in arguing this with you?

That Space Marine wasn't a Space Marine, he was just a really old Rune Priest who was too old to become a Space Marine and got rejuvenation treatments just like Luther did


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Garviel Loken explained in a HH novel that they are immortal. Given his very high rank, he was probably not lied to.

Not to mention humans are constantly referred to as "mortals" by space marines and I doubt they're calling them that for the hell of it. But...one thing confuses me. There are space marines that do appear to have aged somehow because if you played SM, Sedonus looked like the equivalent of a 60 year old human man. He sure as hell wasn't recruited by the chapter when he was frakkin 50 so it doesn't make much sense. I understand the designer wanted to give Sedonus a wise look to him but it clashes with everything. He's not the only one tho, Iacton Qruze (a friend of Loken) was described as having looked older with white hair.

These are mostly design oversights or just plain idiocy, but it would make sense for Space Marines to have white hair due to stress, as stress causes white hair. Also, lined, craggy faces that look old would be the result of fighting in hundreds and/or thousands of different climates and environments which would "weather" the face

Now that we've wondered off blabbering about SM feats and how exaggerated they seem, let's not forget that primarchs contain the MOST illogical and exaggerated feats but it all seems justifiably logical because they are ridiculous godly space magical beastmen.

In my honest opinion, a SM averages 7'6 to 8'2 in height and 500 to 800lbs, without armour of course.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.

And besides, Loken didn’t explain how they were immortal. He was merely saying that for all he knew they could possibly be immortal. Captain or not, to me Loken seems to be entirely ignorant on the matter of a space marine’s lifespan.

They acknowledged the existence of Warp entities, they just didn't assign them supernatural titles, and kept them with generic names that had no religious significance.


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Keep in mind that Loken was also told how demons didn’t exist, something we as readers know to be false. Not everything that guy says or thinks needs to be taken literal.

There was at least some semblance of a reason to keep daemons secret.

Keeping SM lifespan secret from high-ranking SM has no rational reason.

Mind you, it's possible for them to age - it does not have to mean they die from it.


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Continuing on the logic of Space Marines, it is often mindlessly repeated that 'If Space Marines were too large, they could not efficiently fight in their environment.'

This fails to take into account the sci-fi nature of the setting. In Halo, the Sangheili average at ~8', and they have zero issue whatsoever even in human environments.

With the gothic, monumental design of 40K structures and spaceships, even the largest of Space Marine-sources would not give them any real issues operating where they are supposed to.

No, but it would restrict them when fighting aliens that are smaller than humans, like the Tau

Or attack field post and dugouts that are very cramped

epronovost wrote:

They can live for centuries if not millennia, but geneseed quality, origin can influence that greatly. Space Marines are sterilised, but if they were not, would be incapable of reproducing with a human female due to genetic differences.

Arguable, as we have no examples of Space Marines attempting to mate with humans, and no evidence to support the fact that Space Marine semen would be genetically different from ordinary human semen, as there would be no martial reasons to change the semen of an Astartes

4) They need frequent medical check-up to prevent mutation, hormonal disbalancement and erratic behaviors. They need extremely high caloric diets, but can survive weeks without food by consuming their muscle mass. They need carefully balanced diets to remain in top condition, but can survive on almost anything edible. Space Marines mental health is naturally fragile, due to their anatomy and are prone to bouts of rage, melancholia, hysteria, dementia, obsessions or anti-social behaviors without good medical and psychological care.

Ordinary humans can survive for up to 3 months without food, and we have examples of Space Marines surviving years without it. Space Marine mental health is actually fairly stable due to the obscenely high discipline and self control, which allow them to conquer something like hysteria (fear-induced, which is a chemical reaction which is lessened in Space Marines), dementia (dementia occurs due to the breakdown of the cerebral cortex, which Space Marines are immune to due to regenerating brain cells [only logical conclusion for how Space Marines don't have the usual neural symptoms of age]). Rage, meloncholia, obsession, etc. are all natural psychological occurences that are quite common in normal humans, and rage and obsession would (most probably) be encouraged in your standard Space Marines in order to maximize battlefield effectiveness.

They offer no significant protection against melta or plasma weapons and neither against high thermal charge of las weapons like hot-shot lasguns or lascanon. Only the most powerful flamers and an exposition to it for more than five second can damage the armour and its wearer. Space Marines armour

1.) We have examples of Space Marines being splashed with burning Promethium and not even feeling mild discomfort, so Power Armour obviously protects against heat, though such weapons as melta weapons. Quote from Fulgrim below.

2) The bolter is a standard weapon design to be used has a light weapon that doesn't require a stock to handle recoil. It, shoots armour piercing explosive device that act much like a small missile. Space Marines bolters are larger than human ones by about 20% (just like their close combat weapon) due to a heavier frame that can withstand a rougher use (like smashing people in close combat with it) and a larger grip for the unusually large hands of the Space marines, but are otherwise identical when it comes to destructive power and magasine capacity. All bolter have three firing mods (single shot, short burst and full auto). They are very precise weapons, but need a lot of maintenance and are prone to jamming, especially in full auto. A single bolt can section a limb or explode an organ usually causes death on creature the size of human, but have proven to be incapable to stop an ork boyz with a single shot on several occasions.

A few things here:
1.) While I agree here, the only way that the Bolter would be both larger and identical in magazine size is if the rounds were larger and therefore more powerful. Logic would dictate that the magazines would be larger
2.) I have never once heard of a Bolter EVER jamming, you care to back this up with a quote? Seeing as how Bolts are self-propelled and thus have barely any charge in their casing, there wouldn't be much need for any more than minimal maintenance
3.) Full auto and short burst are kind of the same thing, it's just with burst you only pull the trigger once, and have however many Bolts come out from that squeeze instead of holding down the trigger

3rd Space Marines training

1) Space Marines are recruited on various worlds by experimented members of their Chapter from boys between the ages of 7 to 13

Space Marines are pubescent humans, which can mean anywhere from 7 to 17, so long as the subject is under the process of puberty, then the subject can be turned into a Space Marine. This is actually a large part of the reason that a lot of the Space Marine recruits die during the implantation process, as everybody hits puberty at different times, and thus one 12 year old might not even be at the starting stages of puberty while a 10 year old may already have a large amount of armpit hair.

2) Space Marines training is made to shape them in a versatile fighting machine that uses his wits more than its brawn. They master various style of combat, weapons and tactics and are always ready to make decision by themselves should things go wrong. Martial pride, honor, duty and loyalty to the Chapters and your brothers are the most exalted values, making them exceptionally brave almost to the point of fearlessness due to their physiology, if not sometimes risk taking, stubborn of vainglorious.

This really just varies according to the Chapter Cult and Chapter teachings. You can have Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, who just want to get into the thick of it and emphasize melee combat an strength, and you can have Chapters like the Blood Ravens who are scholarly and value both intelligence and strength. You can have Chapters like the Ultramarines who are soldiers and on their spare time practice soldiering, while you also have Chapters like the Blood Angels who are religious warriors and on their spare time practice art, smithing, scholarly persuits, etc.

1) Space Marines operate in tribal like organisation called Chapters that number around a 1000 active Space Marines outside ship, craft and tank crew has well has scouts.

One explanation for tank crew and flight crew is that Space Marines are drawn from the existing 100 squads, which explains why we have squads numbering as few as 5 Marines when the standard is 10

Most of the times, Space Marines deploy in battle groups or companies. Companies are numbering in around a 100 fighting man with additional tanks and air support if needed while battle groups can be larger and draw of more than one company. They do operate alone on regular occasion usually has first response units. Their most common tactics is to strike at the enemy command structure and leadership after bombarding from orbit their fortifications and other strategical assets. A single company can force a entire planet to surrender simply by destroying its major city from orbit and conducting drop pod assaults on their key palace or fortification to kill their leaders. Most worlds surrender after a few weeks of this treatment or reinforcements are on their way to make them compliant. The Imperium doesn't occupy territory. It only ask for pledge of allegiance and tithe. They do not seek to fully control a planet socio-economical structure like many empires do.

While I do agree on Space Marine tactics and your description of Strike Forces (official name for your battle groups, used by GW and BL), not all Space Marines operate in this manner. Minotaurs, for instance, may just invade a few major cities and slaughter the populace as a show of force; sweeping aside any resistance like wheat before a scythe.

As far as Imperial occupation, the Imperium does ensure that there is no trace of "heresy" (a relative term, it's meaning varies from Inquisitor to Inquisitor, Space Marine to Space Marine, etc.), and there will usually be an Imperial-trained PDF and Guard regiments, tithes, etc. will also be drawn from this planet.

Of course their small numbers makes them incapable of causing massive damage by themselves, but it's a bit the point considering the damage they caused last time they did. Any comments on my descriptive?

Not even close. even one thousand Space Marines is enough to leave a trail of destruction spanning dozens and/or hundreds of worlds if the proper response is not mustered to stop them. There is a reason that the Ordo Hereticus (][) pays so much attention to Space Marines. As a side not, I just found out a new way to draw boobs using a keyboard when I was typing the Inquisition symbol -][- with parentheses around it


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 Bobthehero wrote:
Or attack field post and dugouts that are very cramped

Space Marines would likely have the most trouble dealing with bunkers and tunneling defenders like the Viet Cong

 dusara217 wrote:
That Space Marine wasn't a Space Marine, he was just a really old Rune Priest who was too old to become a Space Marine and got rejuvenation treatments just like Luther did

I take it you think Longfang is one of Russ old friends who were too old to become a space marines and instead he got the rejuvenation treatment? Well he’s not. Longfang is from Terra, and not only that, Hawser flat out calls him one of the Astartes of the Emperor.

“I don’t remember Terra,” he said.
“What?”
“I don’t remember it. I’m oldest of all, and I don’t remember it. I was made there, one of the last few that was, and I remind all the brothers of our proud link to the birth-sphere. But the truth is, I remember very little. Dark barrack fortresses, exercise camps, fight-zones, off-world expeditions. That’s all. I don’t remember Terra."

So that settles that debacle. Space marines do experience deterioration in their bones and muscles, like an ageing human.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Even without armour their skin and bones are tough enough to resist most small arms fire and once you factor in armour small arms end up becoming quite unviable weapons on their own. Thanks to the ceramic (and thus extremely heat-resistant by definition) nature of Power Armour, Space Marines are surprisingly resistant against melta and plasma weapons, although they certainly hurt. Their bones are tough, but the flexibility in between them is still good, so they can do some contortion if needed (although armour stops that, even if they needed it.)

Ceramite is actually a metal alloy, not a ceramic material. This is a common misconception that I actually once believed until reading a few books that had descriptions of Power Armour in them that actually made sense. Ceramic material would crack and shatter if struck, and thus would make an unviable material for armour, whilst a metal alloy would merely dent, unless ridiculously hard.

PA is comparable to MBT plating versus small arms fire, and can resist everything up to and including autocannon rounds very well. Their armour resists their own weapons, so SM versus CSM fights can take quite some time as they focus on defense and try to hit each other's soft armour. Bolters are obscenely large explosive rounds that reduce men to mist with single shots and scythe down vast numbers of unarmoured foes on full auto, although Orks are often hardy enough to survive the massive tissue damage caused by a hit and fight on despite the grotesque resulting wound.

Personally, I prefer to rationalize the SoB having Bolters of the same strength as SM Bolters by saying that Bolts are the actual weapon (self propulsion and all that) and a Bolter being larger basically just gives it a larger magazine. Bolts would, however, turn any human-sized target composed of unarmoured organic material into bloody mist, due to exploding inside of the target with the strength of a 32 MM Grenade.

Basically, this.

Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

Marines have not been sterilized, at least not deliberately. Nor are they castrated as that would be counter productive.

Marines are likely sterile due to all the chemicals and genetic manipulation, but thats more of a side effect and not a deliberate action.


As for food, while marines would need very high calorie diets, them also being able to go for long periods of time without food is also possible. Remember we have genetic manipulation, and altered adipose tissue and other forms of energy storage could easily account for longer survival times despite needing lots of calories. Being able to enter suspended animation also helps too. Or course a marine wouldn't be able to maintain high activity and go without food for long periods of time, but thats ok.

Marines would likely have even greater fat deposits around their internal organs to increase the cushioning it provides, and it doubles as energy storage. Their skin also likely retains a layer of subcutaneous fat that normally disappears with male adolescence.

And again, there is a difference between ideal and not-ideal situations. Ideally, a marine is going to have constant medical checkups and proper food. When he is deployed, its not always ideal. But he can scrape by due to his enhanced physical nature.