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 Blacksails wrote:
What a comically terrible article.

Don't worry GW, I'll protect you, nobody puts baby in a corner.

 inquisitorlewis wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

GW has never had a Collector's Series, which, in my opinion would be qualified as a line of figures that stay in production, but are aimed at the collectors, so not needing game rules...

Actually GW did have a collectors series. Although, they were pretty much just old miniatures packaged in "collector series" blisters. The entire range can be viewed here: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Collectors_Series

i would not define that as a Collector's Series, but just old minis...
i am trying to say that, for a company that is saying their demographic is collectors, they don't have a line that is aimed at collectors...
in my opinion, GW has always been a gaming company, regardless of what the top brass want to say...
i just happen to like collecting their minis...

sure, their LE stuff makes people want to buy it before it goes OOP, but LE and a Collector's Series means two different things to me...
like migooo said in the first post i quoted, and i agree whith him, a line of Inquisitor scale minis, that were available in a non-limited edition manner, would definitely qualify as pure collector's minis...
i think that GW is using the talk of their "collectors" demographic to justify the limited nature of some of their product runs...
they still produce a game, and rules for their minis...
the only 28mm models that where sold in a GW store without rules, as far as i can remember, were limited edition runs like the Gotrek & Friends set...

even as a collector, i think GW's line of "we are a company aimed at collectors" is rubbish...
WFB & 40K is a game, and the majority of the customers are gamers...
Kirby can spout whatever nonsense he wants to...
as long as they keep producing minis i want to paint, i will buy them...
i am just sad to see so many gamers feel marginalized and driven away, and have no desire to see army books with cool art and fiction go away, simply because the rules don't have any use to me...
the day they drop the rules is the day they become a line for collectors, but i wouldn't want to see that happen...

cheers
jah

 -Loki- wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It was a game with a lot of potential, but that just didn't go anywhere because GW didn't adequately support it.

Which can be said for a lot of their specialist games.

Yeah, Aeronautica Imperialis was an excellent demonstration of how to write elegant rules that still capture the important aspects of the real thing and include plenty of strategic depth. GW had X-Wing with IMO better rules before FFG even dreamed of making a miniatures game. And yet they invested absolutely no effort into marketing the game, even to their own customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i think that GW is using the talk of their "collectors" demographic to justify the limited nature of some of their product runs..

I think it's less about justifying limited editions and more of an excuse for their failure to write decent rules. If GW can portray themselves as a product for "collectors" then they can dismiss all of the people complaining about the rules and tell the investors that gamers aren't part of their business model. If they admit that they're a game company then they have to face criticism of their rules and investors that might want to know why their target market is so eagerly leaving GW and buying games from their competition.

 -Loki- wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It was a game with a lot of potential, but that just didn't go anywhere because GW didn't adequately support it.

Which can be said for a lot of their specialist games.

Moreso for Inquisitor than the others, though, because Inquisitor was the one that actually needed that support in order to be seen as a complete game. The other Specialist games were at least all playable straight out of the box.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i would not define that as a Collector's Series, but just old minis...

GW obviously disagree with you, as they labelled them as 'Collector's Series' on the bottom of the blister...

i am trying to say that, for a company that is saying their demographic is collectors, they don't have a line that is aimed at collectors...

They're not branded as being aimed at collectors, but more and more of their models are being constructed with little regard for how well they would function as gaming miniatures... Reference the current trend for gigantic models balancing on tiny (plastic) contact points.

the only 28mm models that where sold in a GW store without rules, as far as i can remember, were limited edition runs like the Gotrek & Friends set...

Minor nitpick... The Felix and Gotrek set wasn't 28mm.

They were larger scale miniatures that were intended solely for the shelf, not for WHFB.

 insaniak wrote:
GW obviously disagree with you, as they labelled them as 'Collector's Series' on the bottom of the blister...

But was that legitimately producing a series aimed at collectors, or was it just re-labeling some extra inventory from the 1980s with something a little more appealing than "all that old stuff that looks terrible next to the new models".

i have the set, Insaniak, and to say that they are a larger scale, is a very minor nit-pick...
they barely qualify as 32mm...
they are certainly not as big as Studio McVey's 40mm LE's...
they are only very slightly larger than the stock Gotrek & Felix models...
of course i know that the LE set was not intended for WFB, which is why i mentioned that they were released without rules...

my point is, GW can say what they want, but as a collector, i have always seen GW as a gaming company who's minis i happen like to collecting...
99% of their models have rules, and thus are gaming minis in my book...

gamers saying that GW is aimed at collectors, and collectors saying it is a gaming company, just goes to show how rudderless GW has become over the last few years...
i have a vested interest in GW being a viable gaming company, since the majority of my clients use my painted minis on the gaming table...
the more gamers that are driven away, the smaller my client pool gets for painted GW minis...

i love GW, and don't have anything bad to say about them, but i am sad to see the current state of the public's perception of the company...
i love getting paid to paint Space Marines!!!

cheers
jah

 Blacksails wrote:
What a comically terrible article.

It's Blood of Cretins, what were people expecting, insight and nuance?

 Peregrine wrote:


I think it's less about justifying limited editions and more of an excuse for their failure to write decent rules. If GW can portray themselves as a product for "collectors" then they can dismiss all of the people complaining about the rules and tell the investors that gamers aren't part of their business model. If they admit that they're a game company then they have to face criticism of their rules and investors that might want to know why their target market is so eagerly leaving GW and buying games from their competition.

I think that's it exactly, it's like the whole "shared experience" bs and trying to dress up a turn based table top wargame as some incredibly dry and abstract rpg to safely position one's self in the ever shifting subjective ether of what individuals may describe as "fun".


It's time for a re-branding.

Now also on BOLS:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/rick-priestley-talks-games-workshop.html

 jah-joshua wrote:
i have the set, Insaniak, and to say that they are a larger scale, is a very minor nit-pick...
they barely qualify as 32mm...
they are certainly not as big as Studio McVey's 40mm LE's...
they are only very slightly larger than the stock Gotrek & Felix models...

So, er... what you're saying is that they're a larger scale?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
What a comically terrible article.

It's Blood of Cretins, what were people expecting, insight and nuance?

Dakka's general policy about not insulting other websites also includes blogs that you don't like... Let's keep things civil, hmm?

 theHandofGork wrote:
Now also on BOLS:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/rick-priestley-talks-games-workshop.html

Is it really necessary to link to every other website that posts this? There's plenty of discussion right here. If bloggers want to join in the discussion with those here, they're welcome to climb aboard and do so.

 theHandofGork wrote:
Now also on BOLS:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/rick-priestley-talks-games-workshop.html

I for one can't wait to see priceless comments that will be generated when the internet bares witness to games workshop being defended from rick priestly by the pale paladins out there. Corporations are people my friend.



Rick priestly managed to crack a joke about someone running back into a burning building to grab their stash and I think that's awesome. Now to keep things on track, let's wildly speculate as to the identity of said individual, my money's on jervis.

@Insaniak: what i'm saying is this discussion is incredibly pedantic...
i am sorry i said 28mm instead of 32mm...
i am not even sure what scale a standard mini from GW is anymore, with the scale creep over the years...
when i started collecting the models in 1985, i believe they were called 25mm...
what are they officially called now???
has GW even said???
i don't know...

i agreed the Gotrek & Friends set was slightly larger...
i said they were released without rules, agreeing that they were not meant for the gaming table, and obviously aimed at collectors...
i said, as a collector, i bought them...
what is the point that you are trying to make by picking apart my posts???

i am genuinely curious...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
what is the point that you are trying to make by picking apart my posts???

I'm not 'tearing apart your posts. I'm responding to them. That's sort of how discussion works.

sorry, that one got submitted before i was done typing...
stupid sensitive iPad...

i don't know what you and i are actually discussing here...
what is your point???

cheers
jah

 the clone wrote:
i do think that it was a bit, i dunno, 'strange' to ask for 300000 pounds from the internet considering how little he seemed to have prepared

He did hire someone to sculpt his personal likeness for all posterity, so there is that.

Talk about vanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Inquisitor, like Warmaster, Mordheim, the Epic and Necromunda relaunch and others didn't even exist long enough to judge whether they tanked or not.

Jervis' last hurrah, trying to keep SG going. It's unfortunate they didn't make the big splash that Jervis needed to keep those lines going.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:
Inquisitor, like Warmaster, Mordheim, the Epic and Necromunda relaunch and others didn't even exist long enough to judge whether they tanked or not.

Jervis' last hurrah, trying to keep SG going. It's unfortunate they didn't make the big splash that Jervis needed to keep those lines going.

In the avarice soaked board room of collector's workshop, there is no room for a shared experience that only requires a modest investment in a small "collection" of models. Anyone ever try and play space hulk in a gw after the initial release? Yeah...

I have heard rumors that they are re branding their models as collectors items for IP protection. Game pieces can only be copyrighted for so long. Rules for a game can't be copyrighted at all (Which is why it's silly that we can't post actual rules text or point cost on this forum, THEY AREN'T SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT LAWS BECAUSE THEY ARE RULES FOR A GAME!) If GW says over and over again that the models are "collectible" rather than labeling them as simply game pieces, they can use those years of (totally BS) quotes from their own company in court. I have talked to both managers of the local GW about the whole gamer vs collector thing. They both said that out of 50 or so regular customers (people they know on a first name basis who come in and actually spend money), at least 40 are primarily gamers. Then there's 5-7 who primarily paint and don't play much. The remaining few buy a lot of black library novels but don't buy models very often, or ever. Also, the average gamer has 30-100 tactical marines, 6-8 pods or rhinos, etc laying around. Someone who is simply a collector will most likely just buy 1 kit. Gamers most likely outnumber collectors and are far more profitable, so I'm not sure why GW has developed this insistence on making collectors items.

I get the impression allot of people don't like to be labelled collectors rather than gamers?

I've been collecting miniatures to game with for 25 years and I don't get it.

Is most of this discussion some sort of churlish elitism thing? Like the classic "my music is better than your music" serioz bidnezz that many 16-25 year old like to do?

 notprop wrote:
I get the impression allot of people don't like to be labelled collectors rather than gamers?

I've been collecting miniatures to game with for 25 years and I don't get it.

Is most of this discussion some sort of churlish elitism thing? Like the classic "my music is better than your music" serioz bidnezz that many 16-25 year old like to do?

No, it's not elitism at all. People aren't unhappy about being told they collect miniatures, they're unhappy with GW's decision to label their target market collectors and not gamers. And it's insult to injury that GW is doing it entirely as an excuse for why they're failing so badly at the gaming aspect of the hobby.

As more of a collector/painter I'm only interested in small numbers of figures and character models. I used to have armies when I played with armies. Buying piles of rank and file troops at their prices is s bit of an ask, there's just no purpose. Also collectors want quality, GW should have stuck with metal or used a much higher quality resin substitute.

 Peregrine wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I get the impression allot of people don't like to be labelled collectors rather than gamers?

I've been collecting miniatures to game with for 25 years and I don't get it.

Is most of this discussion some sort of churlish elitism thing? Like the classic "my music is better than your music" serioz bidnezz that many 16-25 year old like to do?

No, it's not elitism at all. People aren't unhappy about being told they collect miniatures, they're unhappy with GW's decision to label their target market collectors and not gamers. And it's insult to injury that GW is doing it entirely as an excuse for why they're failing so badly at the gaming aspect of the hobby.

So just churlish then?

There is little to no difference between the two "titles", so getting insulted/injured because GW uses a particular terminology does seem like a whole waste of effort to me.

 notprop wrote:
There is little to no difference between the two "titles", so getting insulted/injured because GW uses a particular terminology does seem like a whole waste of effort to me.

Except, again, it's not about the title, it's about the reason for the title. GW isn't just saying "people collect our miniatures", they're saying "if you care about the fact that we're selling you terrible rules for $50 you aren't welcome in the GW™ Hobby™".

I consider myself a collector first and gamer second, that is why i don't understand jah that he only returns to his space marines to paint, got a lot from different makers mostly SF stuff and i am painting them all.

But because i am a collector, i don't need 6 imperial knights, only the bare necessities to field. and because i am a collectors i pass on some designs, i hated the design of those bulky contemptor thingies or what they are called and use models from different company as substitute, for company that says they are the best in plastic mini's they don't understand their collecting clientele, there is so much stuff out there that is as good as (or better) in quality as GW.

That's why I think GWs definition of collector is:

'teenage kid who buys big box of shininess because it looks shiny and never gets round to assembling them, but buys more boxes of the latest shiny thing release anyhow, until his Christmas and 2 birthdays are over.'

I have a problem with them labeling their customer base as collectors to excuse TERRIBLE rules that also happen to be extremely overpriced. The name of the damn company is GAMES Workshop, not Collectors Workshop. That's like buying a corvette, driving it 100mph, the engine blows, and the dealer tells you it wasn't supposed to be driven like that, just sit in the garage and look cool. There are plenty of companies out there making more detailed models for far less money if I wanted to build and paint something just to sit on a shelf and collect dust. If you're going to make rules, constantly update them and charge $108 minimum for 1 army for them, they should at least be playable without massive house ruling or endless arguments. GW has a "collectible" model division, it's called Forge World. If they just want to make collectible models, the rules should be free to download or they should license them out to someone else that's actually capable of writing a decent ruleset.

Arguably, that might be the main reason why they're trialling renaming their stores as Warhammer. - including this shiny new London store.

 Peregrine wrote:

 notprop wrote:
There is little to no difference between the two "titles", so getting insulted/injured because GW uses a particular terminology does seem like a whole waste of effort to me.

Except, again, it's not about the title, it's about the reason for the title. GW isn't just saying "people collect our miniatures", they're saying "if you care about the fact that we're selling you terrible rules for $50 you aren't welcome in the GW™ Hobby™".

That's exactly it. I don't mind being called a collector. My lead mountain will testify to that. I dislike the idea that I can't collect mini's and play a good game with them, because it's for collectors. If it's a collectors range, why are there even rules?

My action figure collecting friend doesn't have rules for his Marvel collection.

 Toofast wrote:
I have heard rumors that they are re branding their models as collectors items for IP protection. Game pieces can only be copyrighted for so long. Rules for a game can't be copyrighted at all (Which is why it's silly that we can't post actual rules text or point cost on this forum, THEY AREN'T SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT LAWS BECAUSE THEY ARE RULES FOR A GAME!)

There are a couple of misconceptions here.

The game pieces vs collectibles is actually down to an argument that came up in the Chapterhouse trial that toys shouldn't be classed as artworks due to their mass-produced nature, and so wouldn't be covered by copyright. Collectibles, on the other hand, are.

As for the game rules, the actual text of the rule is covered by copyright just like any other piece of writing. It's the mechanics of the rules that aren't covered by copyright.

So writing identical rules mechanics in your own words would not be a breach of copyright. Posting GW's written rules potentially is.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I consider myself a collector first and gamer second, that is why i don't understand jah that he only returns to his space marines to paint, got a lot from different makers mostly SF stuff and i am painting them all.

But because i am a collector, i don't need 6 imperial knights, only the bare necessities to field. and because i am a collectors i pass on some designs, i hated the design of those bulky contemptor thingies or what they are called and use models from different company as substitute, for company that says they are the best in plastic mini's they don't understand their collecting clientele, there is so much stuff out there that is as good as (or better) in quality as GW.

i guess i did not make myself very clear...
have a look in my gallery to see the variety of minis that i paint...
i have painted for four different companies in the industry, and collect minis from almost every company on the market...

i am saying that what inspires me most are Space Marines...
i love their art, fiction, and minis more than any other range...
i don't know why they appeal to me more than other models, settings, or fictional characters, they just do...
there are many more inspiring Chapter schemes that i have yet to paint...
maybe one day i will have gotten it out of my system, but for now, i daydream about all of the Chapters' schemes, and Marine minis, that i haven't painted yet...

on top of that, 90% of my clients hire me to paint Space Marines...
it's a win-win for me...
who makes a better plastic Space Marine than GW???

cheers
jah

Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
GW obviously disagree with you, as they labelled them as 'Collector's Series' on the bottom of the blister...

But was that legitimately producing a series aimed at collectors, or was it just re-labeling some extra inventory from the 1980s with something a little more appealing than "all that old stuff that looks terrible next to the new models".

Given how low wastage metal casting is (almost 0%) it must have been a genuine attempt, otherwise they would have thrown the metal back in the pot and cast something else.

jah-joshua wrote:
who makes a better plastic Space Marine than GW???

I guess none, FW on the other hand makes really great resin space marines that do not look like a moving Iconostasis, other companies make really nice futuristic powered armoured troopers, but admittedly they do not have the the iconic shape of a space marine.

Personally I do not like GW space marines any more, FW has the right idea on what they should look like (speaking of the rank and file models because their characters are as overboard as the regular line), but the design needs a modern era update for my taste.