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I've never been bothered by GW's prices. I think they're ludicrous and they're digging their own grave, but it's just my choice not to buy their stuff. I watch their antics regarding proving with amusement, as they produce rubbish for ever higher prices.
What I do find objectionable is the aggressive manner in which they throw their legal weight around in what is a fairly small industry and appear to put independent traders under unreasonable pressure. I don't know any independent who likes GW, they only deal with them because they can't afford to not stock what still supports a large part of the overall market. Otherwise the relationship is often antagonistic. Their legal bullying on the most dubious grounds is just damaging to the wider industry. At that point I can't ignore GW by simply not buying their product, they're trying to impose themselves on other companies I wish to give my custom.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 22:53:24
...but I don't care to exhaust any additional time and energy on this post. The bottom line here is that there needs to be a fundamental change in the community as a whole.
Oh the positivity... complaining about complaining does not make a positive. Generalizing about the entirety of the dakka community while lamenting "propaganda" seems pretty weak sauce.
Apparently I struck a chord with you. My comments hit a little too close to home for your liking? I'm being playful of course (and maybe just a little petty - all in good humor though I promise).
So you complain about toxicity on dakka, show us how it's done good chap.
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2015/03/02 23:07:22
Subject: Re:Rick Priestley on GW's current position
We can all dance around the pricing issue for a very long time. It's now a highly expensive hobby in comparison with it's peers in tabletop gaming. I've recently gotten into Star Trek Attack Wing in a big way and cannot express my joy at the price vs gaming fun ratio, but again this digresses from my point, which is claiming that negativity toward GW exists because some people are poor and cannot afford the game and got mad about it isn't the economic truth here.
The company is in actual trouble, it's profits are tanking. That's not the result of some bitter impoverished grognards dissuading wide-eyed innocents from getting into the games, that's most wide eyed innocents not having the disposable income to try and start or deciding that the product is too expensive in terms of perceived worth. It's also the number of existing gamers putting the games down and walking away. WHFB was the biggest fantasy game out there previously and now GW themselves are bringing about a 'do or die' last resort change to it to try and save it from vanishing forever. The Hobbit game has fallen into the Abyss.
40k jumping the gun and getting reissued two years after instead of four years after the previous edition was an attempt to bolster revenue.
Unbound is daft. Most of GW, with the noted exception of Forge World and Black Library, seems to be jumping the shark to varying degrees. the rules atm for 40k are a vast swirling mess of churn and bloat.
Oni, you yourself gave into the hate over the finecast mess. GW has made a series of very dubious decisions of late. They do seem to want to change things (and who wouldn't with profit falling through the floor) but the bizarre 'cold war' that exists between the decision makers in GWHQ vs 'the community' and GW's insistence that it doesn't need to communicate, interact or understand feedback is killing it.
oni wrote: The bottom line here is that there needs to be a fundamental change in the community as a whole.
For that to happen, there's going to have to first be a fundamental change in Games Workshop... because the community is the one that they have built through their actions.
If people are unhappy with things that GW have done, it's a bit odd to suggest that they are somehow in the wrong for complaining about those things.
One of GWs problems from their perspective is that they are in a hobby that for many people is a life long one. They're not selling handbags, they are or were a wargames company. Many people have been wargaming for 20+ years. GW have a vocal legacy fanbase that really doesn't fit the business model they want today. They'd prefer a lot of them goes away presumably, so they can just focus on newer customers with no opinions about the 'good old days' and what the company used to do compared to today.
oni wrote: The bottom line here is that there needs to be a fundamental change in the community as a whole.
For that to happen, there's going to have to first be a fundamental change in Games Workshop... because the community is the one that they have built through their actions.
If people are unhappy with things that GW have done, it's a bit odd to suggest that they are somehow in the wrong for complaining about those things.
I would argue that there is a fundamental change taking place in the community.....a change to other games
It is true you do not have to go far on Dakka to find a strong anti-GW sentiment. However this is one of the best moderated forums on the interwebs and even criticism leveled at GW corporate itself has been moderated in accordance with rule number 1.
The 40k scene in my neck of the woods absolutely disintegrated. Out of 10 people I was the ONLY person on Dakka. Luckily there is a diverse crowd of very enthusiastic and genuinely polite hobbyists all over this site who shared with me all the other games that were out there
What I do find objectionable is the aggressive manner in which they throw their legal weight around in what is a fairly small industry and appear to put independent traders under unreasonable pressure. I don't know any independent who likes GW, they only deal with them because they can't afford to not stock what still supports a large part of the overall market. Otherwise the relationship is often antagonistic. Their legal bullying on the most dubious grounds is just damaging to the wider industry. At that point I can't ignore GW by simply not buying their product, they're trying to impose themselves on other companies I wish to give my custom.
This is exactly how I feel. Couldn't care less about what GW is doing with its games (other than having friends who play them, and not wanting them to be left high and dry), but it does affect me in terms of the belligerence shown towards independent stores. The FLGS in the UK is struggling enough as it is.
Also, that the 'us and them' attitude of 'GW way, or the high-way', where they fail to integrate themselves into the larger wargaming community in an official capacity (for just one example, not being present at the forthcoming Salute, which in my mind is absolutely, fething nuts), as well as generally not acknowledging any other companies within the industry. This can rub off on some of the fanbase I feel, and I think is responsible for a good deal of the ill-feeling and argument you sometimes get on forums. Really, I'm sure we are all on the same side - of wanting good quality miniatures, good rules, a good community, without it costing the earth.
Our hobby is a small industry, and traditionally much more personable and friendly than a lot of others out there. The big corporate-style stomping and throwing of weight around is ugly, and I don't think it has any place here. I don't think there is any problem with pointing that out, or indeed remembering a time when GW was indeed part of the larger wargaming industry, and didn't seek to ostracise itself and polarise fan opinion by chasing top $, game design, balance and creativity be damned. It wasn't that long ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 00:07:00
If there is "negativity" (usually synonymous with criticism) then it's fostered entirely by GW. There's no one to blame but themselves. Their silence and arrogance toward their customers does nothing to stem the tide of frustrated players. Player that then move on to other better games.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I consider myself a collector first and gamer second, that is why i don't understand jah that he only returns to his space marines to paint, got a lot from different makers mostly SF stuff and i am painting them all.
But because i am a collector, i don't need 6 imperial knights, only the bare necessities to field. and because i am a collectors i pass on some designs, i hated the design of those bulky contemptor thingies or what they are called and use models from different company as substitute, for company that says they are the best in plastic mini's they don't understand their collecting clientele, there is so much stuff out there that is as good as (or better) in quality as GW.
i guess i did not make myself very clear...
have a look in my gallery to see the variety of minis that i paint...
i have painted for four different companies in the industry, and collect minis from almost every company on the market...
i am saying that what inspires me most are Space Marines...
i love their art, fiction, and minis more than any other range...
i don't know why they appeal to me more than other models, settings, or fictional characters, they just do...
there are many more inspiring Chapter schemes that i have yet to paint...
maybe one day i will have gotten it out of my system, but for now, i daydream about all of the Chapters' schemes, and Marine minis, that i haven't painted yet...
on top of that, 90% of my clients hire me to paint Space Marines...
it's a win-win for me...
who makes a better plastic Space Marine than GW???
cheers
jah
Sorry for misinterpreting your post.
Who makes better space marines?
Dreamforgeof course
jah-joshua wrote:
i am just sad to see so many gamers feel marginalized and driven away...
Most are driven away by a toxic community.
I personally, barely come to Dakka anymore because I can no longer tolerate the constant negativity. It's as if the GW Hobby is, according to the Dakka community, to hate on GW as much as possible. I picture it plainly... Two Dakka posters meet up for a game, pull their armies out of the case, deploy and then proceed to spend the next 2 hours whining & bitching about GW.
Spoiler:
Toofast wrote:I have heard rumors that they are re branding their models as collectors items for IP protection. Game pieces can only be copyrighted for so long.
I can get behind this reasoning - It's logical and it makes sense.
notprop wrote:I get the impression allot of people don't like to be labelled collectors rather than gamers?
I think this is 99.9% of the crescendo of whining & bitching in this thread.
On a side note...
Toofast wrote:That's like buying a corvette, driving it 100mph, the engine blows, and the dealer tells you it wasn't supposed to be driven like that, just sit in the garage and look cool.
This actually happens. A LOT! Too frequently for comfort in fact. I personally know a few people that have bought high end sports cars where the motor's have blown and the manufacturer literally told them "The car isn't meant to be driven in xyz fashion" I know of a 2009 Subaru WRX STi, a 2010 Subaru WRX STi, a 2014 Ford Shelby GT-500 and a 2014 Nissan GT-R where this happened. Subaru, eventually helped albeit very little, but the GT-500 and GT-R went to litigation.
If toxic forums drive people away, lots of people would stop playing certain video games, and you over estimate the reach of Dakkadakka. There are enough pro GW forums out there, so why aren't people going to GW stores in droves because of those forums?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 01:20:49
My current understanding is that Dakka seems to be one of the wargaming forums that has thrived the most these last few years, whereas some of the slightly more GW-centric forums have dwindled in size a bit.
I realize correlation does not equal causation, but I do attribute Dakka's success to having a significant range of opinions, where posters feel free to express their likes and dislikes of a product without being stigmatized. I think what some see as negativity I see as frankness and honesty, and that goes a long way when we're talking about dropping more than 60 bucks on a couple of hunks of plastic. We want to make sure what we're buying into is worth something, so where a laymen goes "what do you do with these plastic army men" you'll have a good answer other than "I just like to paint their brown pants blue."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 02:02:58
Howard A Treesong wrote: I've never been bothered by GW's prices. I think they're ludicrous and they're digging their own grave, but it's just my choice not to buy their stuff. I watch their antics regarding proving with amusement, as they produce rubbish for ever higher prices.
What I do find objectionable is the aggressive manner in which they throw their legal weight around in what is a fairly small industry and appear to put independent traders under unreasonable pressure. I don't know any independent who likes GW, they only deal with them because they can't afford to not stock what still supports a large part of the overall market. Otherwise the relationship is often antagonistic. Their legal bullying on the most dubious grounds is just damaging to the wider industry. At that point I can't ignore GW by simply not buying their product, they're trying to impose themselves on other companies I wish to give my custom.
Cannot agree more their legal actions and threats too other companies that produce nothing like their product is pretty much against national Law but most companies buckle in afraid to stand up against them. GW as of around now reminds me a whole lot of a certain empire in history they gained much of their inspiration from for one of their main games . bear with me:
The Chapter House Studios law suit ( were yes they are making miniatures that are near copies for their products, however GW should never have gone and tried to sue them, that is plainly wrong) and GWs copyright getting all bashed up could be GWs equivalent to the Romans military defeat in the battle in the Teutoburg Forest. Rome lost 10% of its entire standing army, shook its peoples belief and halted Romes advances and began too single the end of Roman dominance and encourage the other " Barbarians" to expand , learn from their enemy and push on its borders showing they can be defeated.
Now we also have GWs management abusing its customers trust and diminishing the value of its sorely overpriced product, that is being outdone by many other smaller companies. Rome Began too suffer from its success many diseases broke out in now today Italy due too their wealth from trade weakening their man power and lessening the strength of their armies. Most of all Roman was in constant turmoil ( Warhammer 9th edition fears anyone?) with uncertainty of were things are going and what their future will be.
The Roman Government was being rules by incompetent aggressive individuals who were arrogant, neglecting their Empire and people which aided greatly its decay. Their is no Civil war in GW unlike what happened in Rome a whole lot near the end for those vying for power. However The Germanic and other Barbarian peoples began too form their own kingdoms and armies based off of Roman military structure and ideas and began too learn how too fight Romans more effectively.
We now have many companies that are growing better, producing better and better miniatures , games and over all products / settings why'll GW wanes. Now the Stage of GWs dominance begins too dim and become more and more irrelevant too many gamers who are moving towards other products because of GWs policies and disregard too their fanbase.
I see some similarities their which I find a high amount of Irony in considering were 40k is highly inspired from. Not meant too bash anyone who likes GWs games, but just pointing out how things have been looking like for years now and how they remind me of late Roman history. Take from it what you will.
@Jehan-reznor: Dreamforge are not producing GW Space Marines, they are producing Dreamforge Valkir Assault Troopers...
two very different products, with two very different aesthetics...
to me, those do not look like my vision of a Space Marine, because i am passionate about the art and style of 40K...
obviously, if you choose to use them as a stand-in, that is your choice, but to me those are not GW Space Marines...
i paint GW Space Marines because i like the aesthetic of the GW Space Marine...
I buy GW products because i like their look...
if i choose to buy Dreamforge kits, i will be painting them to represent the kits that they are designed to be in Dreamforge's setting...
i would not be painting them as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, because they do not look like Space Wolves or Blood Angels...
to me, the silhouette of a GW Space Marine is a distinct and iconic, and is my favorite type of mini...
why would you care what i choose to paint???
if you wanted to own my work, you would send me a box of Valkir Assault Troopers, and i would paint them in any way that you want...
that is what being a good commission painter is all about...
bringing the customer's vision to life...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2015/03/03 07:56:54
Subject: Re:Rick Priestley on GW's current position
I think some people (Gwombies, apologists, whatever you want to call it) are unable to distinguish between valid criticism and "hating" so they just lump them all together. Let me see if I can help you out.
Example 1
I have stopped purchasing GW products because the rules have been split into far too many different sources, they're overpriced, clunky, full of random tables and completely devoid of any kind of tactical depth beyond list selection.
Example 2
GW sucks, I hate them and I'm never buying their products again.
If you can't tell the difference between those 2 examples, I'm going to have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.
2015/03/03 08:51:38
Subject: Re:Rick Priestley on GW's current position
Deadnight wrote: @jah Joshua: regarding 'alternative' space marines, how do you rate anvil industry's black ops 'so not space marines' Exo lords? Just curious, mind.
I'd love to have an army of these guys. so much character.
personally, i don't rate them at all as 40K Space Marines...
i do not use 3rd-party products in my personal 40K projects...
i use GW (which includes Forge World) miniatures for my personal 40K projects, because that is the look that i like (and for a very important reason discussed below)...
as stand-alone powered armor warriors, the Exo Lords don't look bad...
they never made me reach for my money, though...
my respect for Anvil Industries skyrocketed the moment that Afterlife was announced...
since he is now creating his own IP, i have much more regard for the company...
his sculpting just keeps getting better, too...
i may even buy some of the new minis that are created for his game, but i would paint them according to the background of the Afterlife setting, not as a "not 40K" stand-in...
on the other hand, i would not buy any "not 40K" products from companies like Kromlech, Puppet's War, or Chapterhouse...
supporting 3rd-party products is just not my thing...
i know this is a touchy subject here, and i will probably catch a lot of flak for my opinion, but i just don't have any desire to purchase 3rd-party products for use in my personal 40K or WFB projects...
if i am painting up a personal project, i don't want to mix manufacturers...
i want my buyer to be able to walk into a GW store, and show off his purchase, without having to worry about getting flak from the manager about a mini that used non-GW parts...
since all of my personal projects are for sale, that just makes good business sense to me...
what others choose to do is none of my business, and what others hire me to paint is their choice...
for example, one of my customers has just hired me to paint a Chaos Space Marine set for his Black Crusade gaming group...
as far as i can recall, this will be my first time ever painting both 3rd-party sculpts and a "counts-as" mini...
i will be using a mix of the Russian Thousand Sons torso set to build a Sorcerer and a Rubric Marine, using GW parts for the rest of the build...
three other characters will be all GW and FW parts, while the last mini will be a converted Infinity model to represent a female Heretek (which GW does not produce an actual model for)...
i have no problem painting up these models as the customer wants them, since it's his call...
Ah condescension and name calling, that'll win 'em over chum.
I think oni made a good and clear point, i.e. Dakka quite often reads as a whine fest. Too often threads are quickly derailed (like this one?) to the now ubiquitous 'don't like GW business practices' etc.
oni suggests this and there are 10 members jumping all over him/her. It doesn't make for good discussion of either the main theme or whatever tangent the thread is now on.
Whether you realise it or not Dakka is different to how it was a few years ago. Many people still enjoy GW product (why not there's lots to enjoy) but all often even suggesting such a thing is quickly derided. Far less friendly than it should be.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
Howard A Treesong wrote: One of GWs problems from their perspective is that they are in a hobby that for many people is a life long one. They're not selling handbags, they are or were a wargames company. Many people have been wargaming for 20+ years. GW have a vocal legacy fanbase that really doesn't fit the business model they want today. They'd prefer a lot of them goes away presumably, so they can just focus on newer customers with no opinions about the 'good old days' and what the company used to do compared to today.
Except that these grognards are the only people still spending money on GW, and GW knows this. Everything released in the last few years is specifically aimed to wring the last few dollars out of veterans, either by introducing brand new stuff that veterans don't own yet, or by selling 'good old days' nostalgia (Nagash, Harlequins).
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
lord_blackfang wrote: Except that these grognards are the only people still spending money on GW, and GW knows this. Everything released in the last few years is specifically aimed to wring the last few dollars out of veterans, either by introducing brand new stuff that veterans don't own yet, or by selling 'good old days' nostalgia (Nagash, Harlequins).
If only they changed the rules to suit these veterans. They'd sell more of the nostalgia pieces if the vets stayed around long enough to buy them.
Allthough GW does not behave like i want to, i am just a long-time customer (since the beginning), i do not run the company.
And we should not forget: these are different times.
Much of the things i read are not new and never were of any concern before.
The 40k and WHFB game rules are now not much better or worse then they were (and i have played them all), they never were perfect.
The best GW games were specialist games, i played them all (still play some), but they are all gone. So the quality of the game, that's not it either.
The models got better, the models also got more expensive.
I do agree that the hobby is both absolute and relatively expensive if you compare it to 5, 10, 15 and 20 years ago.
The price of an army and some individual models is IMO too high. But compared to most other manufacturers the game can cost less, but the models more often than not cost even more.
The only company that seems to have no problem at all are Fantasy Flight Games, i have X-wing and Imperial Assault too. Nice games, balanced, but i would not compare them and their relative simplicity (and therefore balance) to "real" wargame systems with more variables.
Also, the Fantasy Flight Games type of games is partly a different market. No modelling, no painting required (only ir you want to) and learn and play the game in half an hour.
And then there are computer games.
These are different times and GW is trying to deal with them.
RoninXiC wrote: If you have 8 editions to improve your game and it doesn't... does that not make you a horrrrriiiibble game designer not worth supporting?
Which editions did Rick actually have input into? Its not all 8 now is it? 1 through 5 for sure, but beyond that?
To be entirely fair to the man, as I said the 3rd edition and all the editions that spawned over it was his home-brew 15mm WW2 game system that was forced to use because the management forced the last moment a memo that wanted the game to require more models to be played, the fact the core rules have lasted that long is a testament to his abilities.
I do not agree with many of his design philosophies I can be considered a polar opposite in many of his views on how a system should look and to be entirely honest I have accused him several times in GoA related threads here and else as been "stuck i the late eighties early nineties" with his ideas especially in background fiction, all the above been said...
To not acknowledge his talent, the influence he has exert upon the wargaming scene or the validity of his games design (whether you subscribe to his school of thought or not) is dogmatic shortsightedness.
ORicK wrote: Allthough GW does not behave like i want to, i am just a long-time customer (since the beginning), i do not run the company.
And we should not forget: these are different times.
Much of the things i read are not new and never were of any concern before.
The 40k and WHFB game rules are now not much better or worse then they were (and i have played them all), they never were perfect.
The best GW games were specialist games, i played them all (still play some), but they are all gone. So the quality of the game, that's not it either.
The models got better, the models also got more expensive.
I do agree that the hobby is both absolute and relatively expensive if you compare it to 5, 10, 15 and 20 years ago.
The price of an army and some individual models is IMO too high. But compared to most other manufacturers the game can cost less, but the models more often than not cost even more.
The only company that seems to have no problem at all are Fantasy Flight Games, i have X-wing and Imperial Assault too. Nice games, balanced, but i would not compare them and their relative simplicity (and therefore balance) to "real" wargame systems with more variables.
Also, the Fantasy Flight Games type of games is partly a different market. No modelling, no painting required (only ir you want to) and learn and play the game in half an hour.
And then there are computer games.
These are different times and GW is trying to deal with them.
It's always been expensive that never changed. One of the main reasons i left the hobby 10-11 years ago was because of the expense of keeping up with the latest rules,codices,models and everything else. If expense was such a big problem for the GW audience they would have folded years ago. Any hobby has expenses but people can look away from the cost of doing something with their time they enjoy. Compared to computer gaming which has a much larger start up cost and cost for it's games though varied may only last you a day or two before you need to pay out for a new one. I think the popularity of computer games especially online gaming being so easy now have taken away some of the old target audience for GW though. Kids can now not even leave the house to play games with their friends and compared with playing a game of 40k where you need to pack miniatures,transport them,set them up and go through a game much more complicated than pushing a few buttons you can see what kids would rather be doing.
It used to be that even to play computer games you had to go to your friends house and while there you could see your friends miniatures,how cool they looked and want your own. GW stores are still relatively kid friendly you can go in and paint something and play a simplified demo game while a red shirt tells you how great and fun it is then tells the parent how much they will need to pay for their kid to get into the hobby (I still remember my Mum's face). They are still aiming for new gamers and young people but they are just not hooking many in anymore. And this is the main reason i feel they have changed a lot of their market strategy.
Without being able to hook many new players they are left with the people they hooked in decades ago during it's strongest years for new players. My local GW is an example still standing but mostly empty much of the week with one lonely red shirt running it instead of the multiple staff they had when i was in my teens in a store that was rammed full on weekends. All GW has left now are the loyalist long time players.
The other major shift in approach comes from how popular the game became in the USA with it's strong tournament scene and i think this shift is a big part of why their policies are getting like they are now and have been for some time. The popularity in the US saw the shift with less focus on fun in games and more focus on making games complicated,codices focused on making sure you can use and buy as many models as possible for your points value. They also have produced more complicated and detailed models that look more impressive to paint up for experts who want to show off their work at competition level.
GW has had to change to keep up with an increasingly specialized audience a lot of people will say they don't want collector models but their campaign boxed sets seem to be doing well enough selling out quickly. Collectors versions of rulebooks sell out in a day or two. As long as they know people will buy a massive boxed set for one model that is only available in that set then they will keep targeting those collectors. If people really wanted change they would be voting with their wallets and the fact that there are no massive stockpiles of unsold campaign packs and collectors edition book sets shows that they are perfectly fine with this direction. They get more models and GW keeps making sure the tournament scene can spam models and buy more. The audience now has been with them for years and they are not getting a supply of new blood so now all they can do is pander to the needs of the older hobbyist who has a great deal more disposable income than they used to and sell them lots of items that feel exclusive and have to have collectors items.
GW knows what it's doing and has done for years (sort of) though some policies really do seem like they are ruining things for themselves). I think being out the hobby for so long let me see things from the outside a bit and it feels like a lot of people want change but don't know what they want and when change does happen they don't like it anyway. In the "good ol days" GW games were a quirky fun very British orientated game for young kids to teens but it's not the same now as in the 90's and GW has a much bigger international audience with different needs along with a much older one.
But then maybe all this is just my positive outlook of getting back into 40k and given a year back under the GW banner I'll probably learn to hate them too since it's not the same company it was when i started out.
GW knows what it's doing and has done for years (sort of) though some policies really do seem like they are ruining things for themselves). I think being out the hobby for so long let me see things from the outside a bit and it feels like a lot of people want change but don't know what they want and when change does happen they don't like it anyway. In the "good ol days" GW games were a quirky fun very British orientated game for young kids to teens but it's not the same now as in the 90's and GW has a much bigger international audience with different needs along with a much older one.
The problem with this theory is the numbers run against it and this is the crux of the discussion (opposition, hate, whatever).
A note about their collector pieces is that they are artificially limited, 5k copies (iirc) of a book for a company with the global target audience of GW is a drop in the ocean, not something I would be proud to say I sold out since the supply vs demand is really skewed.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I consider myself a collector first and gamer second, that is why i don't understand jah that he only returns to his space marines to paint, got a lot from different makers mostly SF stuff and i am painting them all.
But because i am a collector, i don't need 6 imperial knights, only the bare necessities to field. and because i am a collectors i pass on some designs, i hated the design of those bulky contemptor thingies or what they are called and use models from different company as substitute, for company that says they are the best in plastic mini's they don't understand their collecting clientele, there is so much stuff out there that is as good as (or better) in quality as GW.
i guess i did not make myself very clear...
have a look in my gallery to see the variety of minis that i paint...
i have painted for four different companies in the industry, and collect minis from almost every company on the market...
i am saying that what inspires me most are Space Marines...
i love their art, fiction, and minis more than any other range...
i don't know why they appeal to me more than other models, settings, or fictional characters, they just do...
there are many more inspiring Chapter schemes that i have yet to paint...
maybe one day i will have gotten it out of my system, but for now, i daydream about all of the Chapters' schemes, and Marine minis, that i haven't painted yet...
on top of that, 90% of my clients hire me to paint Space Marines...
it's a win-win for me...
who makes a better plastic Space Marine than GW???
cheers
jah
Sorry for misinterpreting your post.
Who makes better space marines?
Dreamforgeof course
jah-joshua wrote:
i am just sad to see so many gamers feel marginalized and driven away...
Most are driven away by a toxic community.
I personally, barely come to Dakka anymore because I can no longer tolerate the constant negativity. It's as if the GW Hobby is, according to the Dakka community, to hate on GW as much as possible. I picture it plainly... Two Dakka posters meet up for a game, pull their armies out of the case, deploy and then proceed to spend the next 2 hours whining & bitching about GW.
Spoiler:
Toofast wrote:I have heard rumors that they are re branding their models as collectors items for IP protection. Game pieces can only be copyrighted for so long.
I can get behind this reasoning - It's logical and it makes sense.
notprop wrote:I get the impression allot of people don't like to be labelled collectors rather than gamers?
I think this is 99.9% of the crescendo of whining & bitching in this thread.
On a side note...
Toofast wrote:That's like buying a corvette, driving it 100mph, the engine blows, and the dealer tells you it wasn't supposed to be driven like that, just sit in the garage and look cool.
This actually happens. A LOT! Too frequently for comfort in fact. I personally know a few people that have bought high end sports cars where the motor's have blown and the manufacturer literally told them "The car isn't meant to be driven in xyz fashion" I know of a 2009 Subaru WRX STi, a 2010 Subaru WRX STi, a 2014 Ford Shelby GT-500 and a 2014 Nissan GT-R where this happened. Subaru, eventually helped albeit very little, but the GT-500 and GT-R went to litigation.
If toxic forums drive people away, lots of people would stop playing certain video games, and you over estimate the reach of Dakkadakka. There are enough pro GW forums out there, so why aren't people going to GW stores in droves because of those forums?
GW still largely ignore the internet as a whole. And people have an opinion, being a member of several websites, this one is the least "toxic" some are more biased than others. I've practically abandoned others in favour of Dakka.
Look at the latest forthcoming release 35 pounds for 5 figures.. That won't be able to be used within 6 months.
Oh sorry there collectors pieces....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 14:04:40
notprop wrote: Or after 8 editions it's still outselling everything else, it cant be too bad now can it?
I'm sure Big Macs significantly outsell fillet beef steals cooked by Michelin starred chefs every year.
Care to seriously argue that the former would be considered of higher quality than the latter?
Popularity is no measure of quality.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
notprop wrote:Or after 8 editions it's still outselling everything else, it cant be too bad now can it?
I've heard a similar argument about Take That consistently hitting number one in the UK albums chart
notprop wrote:Ah condescension and name calling, that'll win 'em over chum.
I think oni made a good and clear point, i.e. Dakka quite often reads as a whine fest. Too often threads are quickly derailed (like this one?) to the now ubiquitous 'don't like GW business practices' etc.
oni suggests this and there are 10 members jumping all over him/her. It doesn't make for good discussion of either the main theme or whatever tangent the thread is now on.
The replies to his post could have been something to do with the passive-aggressive 'You're a bunch of whining gakkers that are stopping newbies from taking up the game", to summarise the post in one sentence
I felt, at least with 40k, that the game designers were working towards something in the editions leading up to 6th. The game appeared to be undergoing refinements from 3rd->5th. There were certainly missteps and rules that made you go "what were they thinking??" but it appeared that that the goal was to make a better game and so everyone was cutting them a fair amount of slack (obviously people have always complained about GW/40k, but by comparison to today it was a golden age of approval).
6th didn't immediately go against this idea of refinement- it was more when Escalation came out as a way to force units from Armageddon into the core game, coupled with shorting the main rule book by two years, that it became much more apparent that GW was using the rules as a vehicle to sell more and more miniatures, rather than as a vehicle to utilize the miniatures themselves. A number of the more recent codexes that come with nothing more than some points adjustments a tweaking (i.e. Grey Knights) have reinforced this position.
With rules at a record all-time high (core rulebook $85, codex $50, supplements holding some of the best builds for armies being priced the same as codexes, unreasonably high prices for electronic versions of rules, etc.), I think it's harder to not see rules being utilized as a way to generate income with very little production cost. The problem is it usually leaves the customer feeling cheated for goods that hold very little physical value and are so transient as to be valueless to interacting with a gaming community in a few years...it just comes off as bad return-on-investment. Some people are very frustrated at this shift we've seen these last few years, given the long time periods they've played 40k. Others simply shrug and leave. Of course others just shrug and continue on.
But I think there has been a fundamental shift away from GW products, which are starting to be seen as an elitist gaming thing ("Oh, I play 40k. Yes, the costs are very high but they have to be if you want an experience as enriching as this"). It seems like GW is content having it this way, production runs for new releases seem to have dropped way down and facilitate the purchasing habits of the most die-hard fans without much extra. Theoretically, they could continue to cut costs by reducing outreach if they could just keep that die-hard group buying online and shipping out. In the end, it sounds like they're becoming a boutique company with a rabid core that sustains a pretty hefty chunk of currency. But to see 40k reduced from its great ubiquity of a few years ago to something that is kept in glass cases for "collectors" to oogle and compliment each other on sounds like a really sad direction for the game to go.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/03 14:38:17
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