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Well, the somewhat smaller success of Badab vs. Heresy could also be seen as underlining the argument that FW's runaway success with Heresy is based on pre-existing name-recognition.

Badab War sold better than most non-Marine books, because it was Marines, not Xenos.

Heresy sold better than Badab, because it was the well-known founding chapters/legions, rather than the more obscure Badab-chapters.

Don't get me wrong. If GW still has rules-writers who know what they're doing, even if they sit "only" at FW, that must be a good thing. But to as long as they don't succeed somewhere, where GW-main failed to do so, it seems spurious to attribute any causal effect to them. Anecdotal evidence doesn't change that.

Riding the slipstream of immensely popular things like World Eaters, Space Wolves or Thousand Sons sells and will continue to sell, no matter how gakky the rules are... hell, people still keep asking for Legion-rules in 40K, and if they ever do new World Eaters or Thousand Sons or whatever for 40K, they'll again sell like hot cakes, whether they have rules written to "Forge World"-quality or written by a drunk monkey.

We all wish GW would strive to make good rules for the sake of making good rules. But the claim that there is a link between sales and good (or bad) rules needs a bit more meat to stand.

The argument that FW-rules-quality actually matters for sales can only be sustained, if they can make that case for something that didn't sell for GW due to poor rules but did sell for FW, conceivable thanks to the difference in quality of the rules. Warhammer Forge succeeding while GW's Fantasy seemingly failed probably would've been the best proof of that regard. Alas, it didn't happen.

FW succeeds almost exclusively with the same stuff that GW still succeeds with despite their poor rules and other problems, notably Space Marines (as well as things like Knights, etc.., which FW latched on to like a dying man), and thus cannot serve as logical foundation for any argument claiming that the differences in rules matters.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Well, the somewhat smaller success of Badab vs. Heresy could also be seen as underlining the argument that FW's runaway success with Heresy is based on pre-existing name-recognition.

Badab War sold better than most non-Marine books, because it was Marines, not Xenos.

Heresy sold better than Badab, because it was the well-known founding chapters/legions, rather than the more obscure Badab-chapters.

Don't get me wrong. If GW still has rules-writers who know what they're doing, even if they sit "only" at FW, that must be a good thing. But to as long as they don't succeed somewhere, where GW-main failed to do so, it seems spurious to attribute any causal effect to them. Anecdotal evidence doesn't change that.

Riding the slipstream of immensely popular things like World Eaters, Space Wolves or Thousand Sons sells and will continue to sell, no matter how gakky the rules are... hell, people still keep asking for Legion-rules in 40K, and if they ever do new World Eaters or Thousand Sons or whatever for 40K, they'll again sell like hot cakes, whether they have rules written to "Forge World"-quality or written by a drunk monkey.

The argument that FW-rules-quality actually matters for sales can only be sustained, if they can make that case for something that didn't sell for GW due to poor rules but did sell for FW, conceivable thanks to the difference in quality of the rules. Warhammer Forge succeeding while GW's Fantasy seemingly failed probably would've been the best proof of that regard. Alas, it didn't happen.

FW succeeds almost exclusively with the same stuff that GW still succeeds with despite their poor rules and other problems, notably Space Marines (as well as things like Knights, etc.., which FW latched on to like a dying man), and thus cannot serve as logical foundation for any argument claiming that the differences in rules matters.

There are several books and products which have done well purely on the rules options they provide; IA13 being a chief example. It gave Chaos players a small glimmer of hope they could use units other than Plague Marines, Turkeys and Cultists, and brought back the Lost and the Damned which GW tried very hard to kill, particularly by removing the ability for CSM and Guard to ally. FW continuously offers products people want, which quality aside, is a key ideological difference from GW which instead tells people what to buy.

Name recognition of course matters, but what needs to be recognized is that GW doesn't build off of name recognition, on things the fans want. Legion rules? How about Crimson Slaughter instead? Regiment builder for guard? Nah, we'll cut all the characters which represented other regimental styles. Yes, the HH product's success over previous FW products has a lot to do with pre-existing demand and weight of the name and products on offer, but the fact that it was FW which picked up on that, while GW goes and releases Logan Clause and the Tonka Truck, irrespective of any difference in rules quality says a great deal.

Consider, if I may, that while the Death Korps, Elysians and Badab chapters were mostly FW inventions (aside from single drawings with a name in older codexes), they created their own fan-bases. The quality of product, in boths rules and model in spite of higher than GW prices, resulted in real, concrete armies you can and will see reasonably often.

Conversely, how many Crimson Slaughter, Clan Raukaan or Sentinels of Terra armies are out there that aren't just "counts as" to take advantage of certain rules combos? Aside from the supplements themselves, how much revenue do you suppose GW made on those things of which no one was asking for, while blatantly ignoring, or flaunting pre-existing demand?

This is one of the reasons I don't believe very strongly in this rumour; GW almost prides itself in ignoring what the customers want, and every time it seems like they're turning over a new leaf (digital editions and FW lines of communication on Facebook being superb, positive and good-will generating machines being brutally shut down without notice), it's at best a one-off. FW consistently gives fans what they want, albeit at prices which makes them cry.

Wonderwolf wrote:

Forge World/Black Library aren't the slightest bit more "competent" than GW-main. They fethed up everything non-Space Marine they ever touched even worse than GW-main and have been forced to stake their continued success on Space Marines even more thoroughly than GW-main has (thus far).

Funny, I thought their Tau, Ork, and IG lines were very we received. The tau stuff was particularly better received than the Gw offerings during 3rd/4th/5th editions. The Ig stuff is so "fethed up" that gw decided to incorporate several FW things into the last two codex books.

Their Ork line? the two an'a'alf units they do have? Yeah, models are cool, but all of orkyness is less than they have for Elysians alone.

 warboss wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

Forge World/Black Library aren't the slightest bit more "competent" than GW-main. They fethed up everything non-Space Marine they ever touched even worse than GW-main and have been forced to stake their continued success on Space Marines even more thoroughly than GW-main has (thus far).

Funny, I thought their Tau, Ork, and IG lines were very we received. The tau stuff was particularly better received than the Gw offerings during 3rd/4th/5th editions. The Ig stuff is so "fethed up" that gw decided to incorporate several FW things into the last two codex books.

Their Tau offerings for Battlefleet Gothic were far better than GW's. Their 30K Mechanicum army is very well done. Their Imperial Knight list in HH4: Conquest is vastly superior to the pile of gak GW called an Imperial Knight Codex.

How was Warhammer forge a "Feth UP?"

They do seem to be gutting it though...

It didn't sell apparently since they stopped but given the general reports on fantasy popularity overall I think the issue was because it was fantasy and they should likely have had lower expectations to begin with, not that they turned a golden egg into a turd.

I always found that a lot of the warhammer forge stuff was never in stock, even in WW, not sure why that was, best guess is there were limited amounts cast in the first place.

Fantasy from forge world was generally more spikey than guard & marines so I suspect the moulds wore out faster so there was a double whammy

lower sales anyway & fewer casts per mould making it less worth their while to make new ones (unless they didn't have any 30/40K ones to re-do)

you have a point

 Azazelx wrote:
Besides, Mark V has had a distinctive look since (at least) 1991.

Spoiler:

Those in plastic with variants (probably pre-chaos armor and backpack designs) would be on my wishlist.

i sadly do not think they will do it but I really want them to. the only mk3 armour set i can find is the honour guard standard bearer

 the clone wrote:
i sadly do not think they will do it but I really want them to. the only mk3 armour set i can find is the honour guard standard bearer

That's mk4.

Mk3 is maybe what Chronus is wearing and definitely what the Master of the Arsenal is wearing.

If you mean mk4, then Chaplain Cassius is wearing that and one of the Tyrannic War Veterans has a nice mk4 chest plate.

I think half the chaos range is equipped with Mk4s, if memory serves right...

Chaos is mostly modified mk5 with brass trimming and leather gloves

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


I expected 5 man boxes, but I don't think £40 for 5 PA models is realistic. But then, I think 5 man is more likely than £40 a box.

15 different torsos (not compatible with 40K marines). 28 different helms. 34 unique, different bolters and enough special weapons to equip a company. Sculpted shoulder pads for all Legions, except the one you want to do. 1 pair of legs. 1 round base.

Hahaha!

Since the Heresy was a 'no retreat, no surrrender' type of affair I'd encourage GW to explore triangular bases

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Since the Heresy was a 'no retreat, no surrrender' type of affair I'd encourage GW to explore triangular bases

I legitimately can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic.

 mitch_rifle wrote:
Chaos is mostly modified mk5 with brass trimming and leather gloves

Actually, most of it seems to be modified mark 7.

I had a look at FW t'other day and it looks (to me anyway, I could just have missed it) thats there is a lack of models wearing Heresy armour. I suppose that could be an indication of where GW might be going with this.

I'd be happy with that, it would probably be the first GW thing Ive bought in years if they did do a MkV set.

I think this rumour has gone a little cold...

I think it was a nice distraction while there was nothing concrete to discuss beyond the space clowns. Now we have end times drama, new khorne flakes for both fantasy and 40k, and actual proof of something admech coming in just a few weeks. The Eye of Fanboy Sauron has shifted its collective focus.

 warboss wrote:
I think it was a nice distraction while there was nothing concrete to discuss beyond the space clowns. Now we have end times drama, new khorne flakes for both fantasy and 40k, and actual proof of something admech coming in just a few weeks. The Eye of Fanboy Sauron has shifted its collective focus.

Whoah, hold up - what did I miss? I went back and looked at the AdMech Skittari thread and didn't see anything. There's something concrete on that front?

-C6

The preview pics of the new (next week's?) white dwarf has a bunch of binary text in the spot usually reserved for hinting at what is coming next.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/boom-adeptus-mechanicus-imminent.html

A weblink to a possible AdMech model and a cryptic WD front page.

 warboss wrote:
The preview pics of the new (next week's?) white dwarf has a bunch of binary text in the spot usually reserved for hinting at what is coming next.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/boom-adeptus-mechanicus-imminent.html

It says "All Hail Mars!" and has been in the Ad Mech rumor thread for a couple days now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 warboss wrote:
The preview pics of the new (next week's?) white dwarf has a bunch of binary text in the spot usually reserved for hinting at what is coming next.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/boom-adeptus-mechanicus-imminent.html

It says "All Hail Mars!" and has been in the Ad Mech rumor thread for a couple days now.

He was just explaining to the guy who asked about AM.

Indeed. It was just easier to find the link to the pertinent part over on taco bell even if they break the news the day after dakka and everyone else.

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 warboss wrote:
The preview pics of the new (next week's?) white dwarf has a bunch of binary text in the spot usually reserved for hinting at what is coming next.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/03/boom-adeptus-mechanicus-imminent.html

It says "All Hail Mars!" and has been in the Ad Mech rumor thread for a couple days now.

He was just explaining to the guy who asked about AM.

Fair enough.

Awesome! Thanks for explaining what I missed! (and no internet-snark either )

-C6