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 david choe wrote:
Because chaos gods are cosmic idiots who do not deserve to ruled the universe. I mean that truthfully. First off, I know they are powerful in this galaxy because they are playing with a stack deck against being from this MW galaxy if you know what I mean. They have so much power, but they are moronic, idiotic, and insane....if any other factions in 40k behave like them...they would have been extinct a long time ago.

Because the universe is a big place...I think there should be other powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe. The MW just haven't encounter them yet...it is like we are a powerful species on earth, but some ant hill in the middle of some forest is untouch by us...because earth is also a big place.

So two reasons why chaos can't be gods of universe.
1 - they are idiots and insane
2 - they do not seems powerful enough to fight other powerful entities that should be out there.

The truth is...chaos gods are just cosmic idiots that is the prey for the predator gods that will find our Milky Way galaxy one day and will help us mortals defeat those warp idiots. The Emperor heard of these cosmic gods and he was trying to reach out to them...chaos stopped him.

So you're saying that canon can't be canon because of your fan fiction. Disappointing.
It's not even very well thought out to be honest. Chaos can't be intergalactic because you want there to be other things more powerful than Chaos?
Even if there were, why would that limit Chaos to a single galaxy when they don't care about physical space?

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:
Because chaos gods are cosmic idiots who do not deserve to ruled the universe. I mean that truthfully. First off, I know they are powerful in this galaxy because they are playing with a stack deck against being from this MW galaxy if you know what I mean. They have so much power, but they are moronic, idiotic, and insane....if any other factions in 40k behave like them...they would have been extinct a long time ago.

Because the universe is a big place...I think there should be other powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe. The MW just haven't encounter them yet...it is like we are a powerful species on earth, but some ant hill in the middle of some forest is untouch by us...because earth is also a big place.

So two reasons why chaos can't be gods of universe.
1 - they are idiots and insane
2 - they do not seems powerful enough to fight other powerful entities that should be out there.

The truth is...chaos gods are just cosmic idiots that is the prey for the predator gods that will find our Milky Way galaxy one day and will help us mortals defeat those warp idiots. The Emperor heard of these cosmic gods and he was trying to reach out to them...chaos stopped him.

So you're saying that canon can't be canon because of your fan fiction. Disappointing.
It's not even very well thought out to be honest. Chaos can't be intergalactic because you want there to be other things more powerful than Chaos?
Even if there were, why would that limit Chaos to a single galaxy when they don't care about physical space?

Ok...yes lol.

Hyperbolic statment is something you take with a grain of salt.... You know that the true power of chaos is some hack writer with a computer right?

I told you chaos are idiots...you think something as stupid as chaos gods can ruled the universe? I mean....you really think that this is it....this is all we have in this universe are the 4 idiots.

You keep saying that they don't care about material space....which is false...they have a hard time in our material realm.

So I will give you that chaos MIGHT have more than one or two galaxies...that is still small potatoes in the scale of the universe.

The nids are proof that out there ....there are other things that can fight Chaos....I'll tell you this...it would be foolish for anybody to bet on chaos or any of 40k factions as the master of the universe. You would have less than a billion to one chance of winning.

I am just playing the math here...

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

Chaos is a galactic powerhouse...ok, no argument there.

You are now claiming...they are intergalactic and even universal just because of two or three sentences that GW put out, the magnatute of chaos power level based on those hyperbolic statements went up a billion times. You tell me if this wasn't a hyperbolic? You start to have no common sense and becoming a chaos fanboy that easy? You can't take it literally. The story could be an illusion or a propaganda.

Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Stfu...I have no clue what you are talking about. I am talking about dimension in material universe is guided by 4Ds and warp do not have that. That is it. Seriously...you were the one making stupid claim about multiple universe...I remember you have no concept of the size of a galaxy or the universe.

Man...oh let me type face Palm or banging my head to show how I am so much smarter than you....yeah...oh face palm again...now I am smarter than you times two....

Grow up man.

 david choe wrote:
I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

But you are rejecting it, I'm just telling you what the lore says. I'm making up nothing.

 david choe wrote:
Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..

Yes, it's fiction we're discussing. All Warhammer 40k is fiction. Why are you here if not to discuss that fiction?

 david choe wrote:
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

I think you should have some actual substance to your points.

 david choe wrote:
Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

Okay, again, so what if they're idiots? Them being idiots or not is not relevant to their abilities. And Chaos is based far more on Michael Moorcock's Elric novels than anything Cthulhu.

 david choe wrote:
My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.

Math as a concept is all well and good, it's your math that I question. Trying to "math" out universal beings is beyond any humans knowledge, and I don't feel like you're the next great genius to push us there.

 david choe wrote:

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:

I am just playing the math here...

You're just rejecting the reality of the lore.
Your math is meaningless in the real world and even more so in a fictional universe, I'm afraid.

You can say the Chaos Gods are idiots all you want, but that doesn't matter even if true, their intellect has nothing to do with their power and their nature. And I don't think anyone ever said that they were "rulers" of the material universe in any case. But they're the most powerful beings in the warp and they seek to consume the universe.

I am not rejecting the lore...you are interjecting a lore on the universal or intergalactic scale.

Chaos is a galactic powerhouse...ok, no argument there.

You are now claiming...they are intergalactic and even universal just because of two or three sentences that GW put out, the magnatute of chaos power level based on those hyperbolic statements went up a billion times. You tell me if this wasn't a hyperbolic? You start to have no common sense and becoming a chaos fanboy that easy? You can't take it literally. The story could be an illusion or a propaganda.

Yeah..let them be the most powerful in the warp...who cares? It is fiction..
I just think you should use your brain a bit when deciphering GW lore and not take it literally.

Chaos gods are based on Cuthulu mythos and those ancient gods were describe as idiotic and insane. This fits with the 4 gods. They are idiots...any factions with chaos gods powers...they would have vanquished all and ruled multiple galaxies by now.

My math is meaningless in real life? Math is the truth and not based on opinion...what kind of stupid comment was that.

Why do you assume that it is propaganda? The problem with saying that some fluff is propaganda is that what is propaganda? Either all fluff is true, or none is. There is nothing stating that any out-of-universe fluff is propaganda, so it then becomes a matter of personal opinion what extracts are actually true or false. Which results in a complete loss of coherent canon.

Actually, I don't recall the Lovecraftian Gods as being idiotic in any way. Incomprehensible yes, but never stupid. Never call a god stupid: they are the godly one, not you.

Plus the Chaos Gods cannot directly influence the material realm: they must rely of Warp Rifts to get any kind of physical presence in our Universe. Plus, Tzeentch does as Tzeentch pleases.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


ARRRRRRRGH

Now that I'm finished having an aneurism from that post, Choe, if you actually HAD any knowledge on astrophysics, you'd remember that universes have their own laws of physics that develop separate to other universes. Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism, etc are not absolutes, and rather queer formations that appeared with our reality. Outside our universe these are not absolute laws, because they only apply to the universe where they can actually EXIST. The warp is another universe. It doesn't have to follow ANY physical laws at all that we comprehend, because it formed separately.

1) If you're going to make a claim that "that's impossible" in 40k because a physical law, know what the hell you are even talking about before you even begin.

2) If you're going on a fanon/headcanon off the rails discussion, your fanon and headcanon are irrelevant. They only matter to you. Nobody else. And don't use science for your headcanon when you don't even know what you're babbling on about.


Now excuse me while I bang my head on a desk.

Stfu...I have no clue what you are talking about. I am talking about dimension in material universe is guided by 4Ds and warp do not have that. That is it. Seriously...you were the one making stupid claim about multiple universe...I remember you have no concept of the size of a galaxy or the universe.

Man...oh let me type face Palm or banging my head to show how I am so much smarter than you....yeah...oh face palm again...now I am smarter than you times two....

Grow up man.

Hm. Mature.
Extra universes could exist. Or not. We cannot tell.

Also, Wyzilla's post was remarkably coherent. It made a lot of sense. I really cannot see how you could misinterpret that.

@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@SgT Smudge
1 - as I mentioned before.. in universe propaganda or illusion. The truth is GW sucks at math and sizes of universe... they have no clue when they make stupid comment like that.

2 - I remember some books about each of the Cuthulu gods.. and there were a few describe as idiots. It doesn't matter what Cuthulu is, lets talk about Chaos gods. Yes IMHO, they are idiots because they act like idiots.

3 . I will let Wzyilla defend and explain.. because I have no idea what he is talking about. Headcannon? It seems like he agreed with me, yet tries to take my position apart or making gak up about my position.

The Chaos gods are not idiots. We have no comprehension of how they 'think'. I don't get why you keep saying they're idiots. Capricious, selfish, evil, lots of words you could use for them, idiot is a strange choice.

And there's been no personal insults against you. I would cool off a bit or the thread will end up being closed.

 david choe wrote:
@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.

But it's not in any of the in universe portions of the book. If you dismiss this then you dismiss all fluff. You can equally say Inquisitors and Cultists are just propaganda.
I'm talking about your "math." Yes, there's lots of stars, so many as to be beyond comprehension. But that doesn't make "math" that tells us about other entities in the universe such as " powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe."
Again, again, them being idiots or not is not relevant. The wind does not need a brain to blow just as Chaos does not need to be clever to do as Chaos does and ignore material rules of space and time.

Animus wrote:

 david choe wrote:
@animus -
1. You can choose to buy into any propaganda or illusion from GW works. This statement is in universe... we don't know if the gods are tricking the mortals or the story you are reading is from an inquisitor or some chaos cultist. GW have mentioned about this many times.

2. What math are you talking about? The only math I am using is the amount of stars and galaxies in this universe is a good comparison of the grain of sands. This is freaking basic math and many astrophysics used to communicate to people for them to visualize the grandness of space. Enough with the personal insult... last warning.

3. LOL... chaos gods are idiots. This discussion has been done to death. Oh... one day they are so smart and they understand everything there is to understand like lets make Horus turned and plan the heresy. They can talk to their subjects.. and communicate just find. Then next time ... they grant you a duck bill ass or turn their greatest champion to a spawn. But not their chosen one... they don't random turned them to spawn. They are insane and have an attention of a 6 year old... they are idiots and lazy. But, lets leave it at that because yours and my PO is different.

But it's not in any of the in universe portions of the book. If you dismiss this then you dismiss all fluff. You can equally say Inquisitors and Cultists are just propaganda.
I'm talking about your "math." Yes, there's lots of stars, so many as to be beyond comprehension. But that doesn't make "math" that tells us about other entities in the universe such as " powerful intergalactic empire or being that can create galaxies or destroy galaxies. Theses entities should ruled the universe."
Again, again, them being idiots or not is not relevant. The wind does not need a brain to blow just as Chaos does not need to be clever to do as Chaos does and ignore material rules of space and time.

1 - I haven't read that portion. I will just assume that what you are trying to say is that GW wrote an out of universe description of Chaos power such as "Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe". This statement is what I am saying is GW is making a hyperbolic statement. It is clear from where I stand and I have giving you reasons why this is. 1 - GW have no idea that the universe is a big place and this is just writer saying that Nurgle created all the plagues in our Milky Way galaxy but use the wrong word or they just don't get what a universe really is. 2 - Even this out of universe statement .... can be interpreted that we are reading this writing portion from a Cultist or some in universe guy. This part is what GW have stated to avoid pitfall like what I have just stated. You want to buy into this Nurgle have created all the plague in every billions of galaxies besides Milky way is your choice. I have understand your position and you have understand my. Agree to disagree.

2. Yes my math tells me that because the average of one galaxy (MW galaxy) has all these factions and even the Nids are from another galaxy... I would bet because of laws of average that there are other beings in other galaxies. Out of those beings in the billions of galaxies... they are much more powerful than Chaos... thus.. Chaos can not be the all and be all powerful gods of the universe. Not a fanboy crap I am making up.. just laws of average. Did GW mentioned that Chaos gods ruled the universe? No. But you made that claim that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe. I am not in disagreement of the quote.. I am disagreeing with the GW logic here.

3. Agree to disagree about Chaos being idiots. But really ... you think they are smart or incomprehensible? It is not important... because mentally challenge people are also incomprehensible and they are in there own world sometimes. We are here in the material world... Chaos are trying to control or take over this material universe... but they don't even try to understand or is incomprehensible to them. This is a plan that is set to fail. You can never rule or beat something if you don't understand it. This is why Chaos is giving away stupid chaos blessing... they don't know or they don't care. These are stupid quality for a leader to have. They will fail. Because of Chaos being idiots.. I think other warp gods from other galaxy can beat them because they are intelligent. Oh.. lets bless my agents with good blessing...
Chaos shows no quality of a sustainable winning strategy of intergalactic scale... so yes.. .the best they can do is win this galaxy.

 david choe wrote:

1 - I haven't read that portion. I will just assume that what you are trying to say is that GW wrote an out of universe description of Chaos power such as "Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe". This statement is what I am saying is GW is making a hyperbolic statement. It is clear from where I stand and I have giving you reasons why this is. 1 - GW have no idea that the universe is a big place and this is just writer saying that Nurgle created all the plagues in our Milky Way galaxy but use the wrong word or they just don't get what a universe really is. 2 - Even this out of universe statement .... can be interpreted that we are reading this writing portion from a Cultist or some in universe guy. This part is what GW have stated to avoid pitfall like what I have just stated. You want to buy into this Nurgle have created all the plague in every billions of galaxies besides Milky way is your choice. I have understand your position and you have understand my. Agree to disagree.

No, this isn't really an agree to disagree type deal. If you toss this fluff you remove all structure from all fluff discussions. If this is propaganda or hyperbole then so is everything else.

 david choe wrote:

2. Yes my math tells me that because the average of one galaxy (MW galaxy) has all these factions and even the Nids are from another galaxy... I would bet because of laws of average that there are other beings in other galaxies. Out of those beings in the billions of galaxies... they are much more powerful than Chaos... thus.. Chaos can not be the all and be all powerful gods of the universe. Not a fanboy crap I am making up.. just laws of average. Did GW mentioned that Chaos gods ruled the universe? No. But you made that claim that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe. I am not in disagreement of the quote.. I am disagreeing with the GW logic here.

But this is fanboy crap you're making up. Law of averages tells us nothing about how powerful beings in other galaxies are, not in real life and certainly not in fiction. It's outright stated that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful beings in their own universe. Why do you keeps talking about Chaos Gods ruling the universe? No one is talking about Chaos Gods ruling the universe except you. They do not rule the universe, but that doesn't mean they are limited to just the one galaxy.
How can you disagree with GW's logic when there's no logic, just a statement made in fiction?

 david choe wrote:

3. Agree to disagree about Chaos being idiots. But really ... you think they are smart or incomprehensible? It is not important... because mentally challenge people are also incomprehensible and they are in there own world sometimes. We are here in the material world... Chaos are trying to control or take over this material universe... but they don't even try to understand or is incomprehensible to them. This is a plan that is set to fail. You can never rule or beat something if you don't understand it. This is why Chaos is giving away stupid chaos blessing... they don't know or they don't care. These are stupid quality for a leader to have. They will fail. Because of Chaos being idiots.. I think other warp gods from other galaxy can beat them because they are intelligent. Oh.. lets bless my agents with good blessing...
Chaos shows no quality of a sustainable winning strategy of intergalactic scale... so yes.. .the best they can do is win this galaxy.

No no no. No agree to disagree, I have neither agreed or disagreed with you on whether the Chaos Gods are idiots. I have said it doesn't matter if they are or not because it doesn't change their power or their nature.

@Animus

1 - Yes. that is what GW have stated. Let me ask you this... do you believe that because it is written in book X... that Nurgle created all the plague in the universe... it must be true. You tell me yes or no. There are some BS that people say... feth GW , they don't know jack. Like some Black Lib. story about Dark Eldars dying in droves because of Space Marines..I think it was Brotherhood of the snakes. This is me. I Call out on GW .. .this is too much....Nurgle can't make all the plagues in the universe. YES, you told me universe not WARP. So NO, I choose to dismiss this stupid claim from GW that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe.

You are getting mixed up in this discussion. Universe is not the Warp and the Warp is not the universe.

2. Yeah this part is fanboy, but it is a fanboy for everybody ... are you not seeing the logic behind this? WTF? By you holding the statement that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe... this tells me that You are clamming that Nurgle is around the whole universe in all the galaxies that have life that has been infected by plagues... it was Nurgle's design. This said that Nurgle is all powerful. If Nurgle is this powerful.. then his 3 brothers are just as too right(because all 4 are close in power level)? This means that this statement is saying that Chaos is around the universe. Do you get it. You are saying Universe... not Warp. The statement is not Nurgle created all the plagues in the warp...but UNIVERSE. There is only one universe... and the other is call the Warp. Don't change meaning now.

This statement is what this debate is about... CHOAS IS EVERY WHERE IN THE UNIVERSE - LIKE NURGLE CREATED ALL THE PLAGUE IN THE UNIVERS is BS or not tells us everything here. I told you it was hyperbolic and you disagree and claims that this is fact and true.. so you must accepted that Nurgle is everywhere in the universe. Hence.. they are the gods of the universe. Which I keep saying is BS. They can not be.

3. Then what is the point.. go ahead and talk about any subject you want, but don't reply to me. I mean.. I said they are idiots and you are saying maybe they are or are not... but it doesn't change their power. So what? I didn't say their intellect effects their power? There intellect effected them in making plans to conquer the galaxy and the universe. So yeah.. the three common attributes for power level is. Intellect, raw power, and leadership. I think Chaos lack two important attributes... which make them a gigantic beast or lions like monster... a stupid dragon waiting to be slay.

 david choe wrote:
@Animus

1 - Yes. that is what GW have stated. Let me ask you this... do you believe that because it is written in book X... that Nurgle created all the plague in the universe... it must be true. You tell me yes or no. There are some BS that people say... feth GW , they don't know jack. Like some Black Lib. story about Dark Eldars dying in droves because of Space Marines..I think it was Brotherhood of the snakes. This is me. I Call out on GW .. .this is too much....Nurgle can't make all the plagues in the universe. YES, you told me universe not WARP. So NO, I choose to dismiss this stupid claim from GW that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe.

You are getting mixed up in this discussion. Universe is not the Warp and the Warp is not the universe.

Yes, I believe it is true, just like I believe that Harry Potter wears glasses. In fiction, what the author says goes. I'm not getting mixed up at all. GW says Nurgle created all Plagues in the universe.

 david choe wrote:
2. Yeah this part is fanboy, but it is a fanboy for everybody ... are you not seeing the logic behind this? WTF? By you holding the statement that Nurgle created all the plagues in the universe... this tells me that You are clamming that Nurgle is around the whole universe in all the galaxies that have life that has been infected by plagues... it was Nurgle's design. This said that Nurgle is all powerful. If Nurgle is this powerful.. then his 3 brothers are just as too right(because all 4 are close in power level)? This means that this statement is saying that Chaos is around the universe. Do you get it. You are saying Universe... not Warp. The statement is not Nurgle created all the plagues in the warp...but UNIVERSE. There is only one universe... and the other is call the Warp. Don't change meaning now.

Yes, Chaos can reach the whole universe, they can ignore physical space, a step in the warp could take you across the universe and back in time. There is no reason for them to be stuck in a single galaxy whatsoever. This does not make them all powerful.

 david choe wrote:
This statement is what this debate is about... CHOAS IS EVERY WHERE IN THE UNIVERSE - LIKE NURGLE CREATED ALL THE PLAGUE IN THE UNIVERS is BS or not tells us everything here. I told you it was hyperbolic and you disagree and claims that this is fact and true.. so you must accepted that Nurgle is everywhere in the universe. Hence.. they are the gods of the universe. Which I keep saying is BS. They can not be.

What do you mean exactly by Gods of the Universe? If you mean Gods who affect points across the entire universe then I agree. Distance doesn't matter to them, no matter how many zeroes you stick on the end. If you say this is hyperbolic, then you may as well say all fluff is hyperbolic. Because nothing says the Gods are stuck in this one galaxy, while stuff does say they have intergalactic reach

 david choe wrote:
3. Then what is the point.. go ahead and talk about any subject you want, but don't reply to me. I mean.. I said they are idiots and you are saying maybe they are or are not... but it doesn't change their power. So what? I didn't say their intellect effects their power? There intellect effected them in making plans to conquer the galaxy and the universe. So yeah.. the three common attributes for power level is. Intellect, raw power, and leadership. I think Chaos lack two important attributes... which make them a gigantic beast or lions like monster... a stupid dragon waiting to be slay.

The point is you keeps saying they're idiots, despite that not mattering to the rest of our discussion at all. It'd be like if I decided to say they don't look pretty in pink, it's not important. It doesn't matter if they're capable of conquering the universe or not. It doesn't matter if there are beings more powerful than them or not. What's important here is whether they are capable of acting in other galaxies, because this thread is about intergalactic travel. I've got fluff saying they are, you don't have any fluff saying they're not so far as I can see.

@Animus


"Yes, I believe it is true, just like I believe that Harry Potter wears glasses. In fiction, what the author says goes. I'm not getting mixed up at all. GW says Nurgle created all Plagues in the universe. "

Great, agree to disagree then. I just LOL at this idiotic statement made by GW and people actually would buy into it.



"Yes, Chaos can reach the whole universe, they can ignore physical space, a step in the warp could take you across the universe and back in time. There is no reason for them to be stuck in a single galaxy whatsoever. This does not make them all powerful. "

Again, if they have this kind of power... they are all powerful. Nurgle is a part of every plague in the universe. All chaos gods are messing with mortal in the whole universe scale. This is where I suggest that if they are around the whole universe... there must be others being that can beat them because Chaos are idiots with power.


"What do you mean exactly by Gods of the Universe? If you mean Gods who affect points across the entire universe then I agree. Distance doesn't matter to them, no matter how many zeroes you stick on the end. If you say this is hyperbolic, then you may as well say all fluff is hyperbolic. Because nothing says the Gods are stuck in this one galaxy, while stuff does say they have intergalactic reach"

It means that they are the only gods in this Universe. Do you understand the level they went up for me and most of everybody here. At first Chaos just a power house in this galaxy. Now they just got bumped by a billion times because they must have that many galaxies with life in their reach. The concept is simple.



"The point is you keeps saying they're idiots, despite that not mattering to the rest of our discussion at all. It'd be like if I decided to say they don't look pretty in pink, it's not important. It doesn't matter if they're capable of conquering the universe or not. It doesn't matter if there are beings more powerful than them or not. What's important here is whether they are capable of acting in other galaxies, because this thread is about intergalactic travel. I've got fluff saying they are, you don't have any fluff saying they're not so far as I can see."

 david choe wrote:

Great, agree to disagree then. I just LOL at this idiotic statement made by GW and people actually would buy into it.

It's not about "buying into it" there's no deception or trickery here. It's about whether you care about knowing the canon or not.

 david choe wrote:

Again, if they have this kind of power... they are all powerful. Nurgle is a part of every plague in the universe. All chaos gods are messing with mortal in the whole universe scale. This is where I suggest that if they are around the whole universe... there must be others being that can beat them because Chaos are idiots with power.

Well sorry, that's not the definition of all powerful. You're objectively wrong on that account. Why must there be others that can beat them? I'd wager you're smarter than a tornado, but you'd probably lose if you picked a fight. But regardless, their power level compared to whatever entities you can imagine isn't really important to this discussion. This is about if they can exert their will in other galaxies, which we've seen they can.

 david choe wrote:

It means that they are the only gods in this Universe. Do you understand the level they went up for me and most of everybody here. At first Chaos just a power house in this galaxy. Now they just got bumped by a billion times because they must have that many galaxies with life in their reach. The concept is simple.

Well we know that they're not the only gods in the universe. So I guess they're not that.

 david choe wrote:

First. I claim that Chaos or warp of each galaxy is stuck to each galaxy because they need living things. So the space between each galaxy is too far.. so those spaces are void... no warp and no life and no travel. NOW - I will leave it at that. I don't claim there are other warp out there.. or life.. but lets don't bring it up. But now I have too because you brought this quote.

Nurgle created all the plagues in the Universe. I already explained about this hyperbolic statement. But this statement claims that Nurgle is now a god of the universe not just a god of a galaxy. BIG leap by about one BILLION times.

See, you're saying it's a hyperbolic statement, but you're not backing that up with anything. I could say a Space Marines only has one heart and that the whole two hearts thing is just hyperbole.

 david choe wrote:

All this comes back to ... because GW stated in that quote that Nurgle is everywhere in the Universe ... we have two options
1 - You, choose to believe that quote... so Warp is everywhere and Nurgle can travel to anywhere ... so human can too, if Nurgle allows it.
2 - Me. GW don't know jack about the size of the Universe and they have just jump into a pitfall. I consider this a hybolic statement by an uneducated writer about astrophysics. No Nurgle is still stuck in this galaxy because there are no living things in the void and Nurgle was created by being from this galaxy. All chaos gods were created by this galaxy. So they can't just decide to pop to other galaxy because some hack writer wrote a one liner.

Why do you believe GW don't know about the size of the universe? Everyone knows that the universe is incomprehensibly huge. This isn't hidden arcane knowledge.
There's no living things in the void between galaxies. There's no living things in the void between stars. There's no living things in the void between atoms either.
We're told Chaos does not play by the material universe's concepts of space and time however. Why should it care for scale? A human could not more accurately picture the distance between two stars systems than the distance between two galaxies. Yet Chaos can exist in this star space.
So space, however vast, is not an obstacle to it.

@Animus...

Seriously... if you do not understand 1,000,000,000 x 1 Milky Way... that is how much Chaos just got more galaxy because of that one liner.
your 1 heart vs. 2 is a joke.

That is the point about this debate...billions vs. one writer.

We take this to court you win. We take this to Science department ... you loose.

The game is always based about this galaxy.. never the universe.. then that one or two lines.. was use as Universe... you became a fanboy of holding this as proof. If there were a court of law.. you might win. If there were a poll most gamers would call GW BS again. Stupid fluff. GW are ignorant gamers geek who don't know crap about astrophysics...This is beyond rule of cool, this is rule of stupid. Chaos is already cool as is.. GW do not need to improve their power by a billion galaxies.

It is stupid and childish ... you can go with it. I've made enough statement about this. I won't try to convince you about how stupid and idiotic GW claims is and it destroyed other fluff and create many loop holes in the back stories. GW can hardly keep their story straight in one Galaxy and now they got the whole universe.... You want to carry this mantel, then go ahead. Shout it out loud when you enter GW stores with pride... Chaos gods is everywhere in the Universe and Nurgle created all the plagues in every galaxies in the universe.. oooooo how powerful is Nurgle now.

Because there was life before Chaos is the main point. The Great Four didn't exist in the Warp during the War in Heaven, for example. The Necrons, even in their old lore, didn't deal with daemons in that era, and it wasn't until the Enslavers showed up (which are more Warp-dwelling Xeno than actual daemon) that we had a glimpse of something residing in the Warp.

The Chaos Gods are "idiots" in the sense that they are not complete beings. They are amalgamations of themes, and encompass the thoughts and emotions of those themes. Outside of the spheres, however, they have nothing, and do not have the sort of sentience that mortals enjoy that can permit them to learn and embody these things outside of their spheres. So Khorne, for example, is the god of bloodshed, warfare and violence. When it comes to those sorts of things, his mastery is unchallenged.

He knows FA about baking a cake. Or about passion, perversion and vice. He knows FA about diseases, plagues and blights. He knows FA about magic, secrets, plots and plans. Those are the realms of other gods, of things outside of Khorne's control and spheres of influence.

The Warp is also infinitely mutable and malleable. It can be shaped (by those with the ability) into any form or function imaginable (this is, after all, what Psykers do). The sentient beings of other galaxies may have shaped their local Warp into something entirely inimical to the Great Four of the Milky Way. For all we know, the Warp in another galaxy might be ruled by the Gods of Order, and is a static, unchanging place. This could be accomplished simply by having a powerful religion old enough to have created such Gods in the first place, and a successful version of a Great Crusade that crushed all opposition to the Gods of Order.

The idea of there being one Warp, ruled by these same four Gods in all of them, also falls apart in the face of the entire history of 40K. There's so many galaxies in the universe that what happens in any one of them is entirely irrelevant. If the Gods of Chaos were so powerful, then beings like Malice/Malal wouldn't really exist, or be so comparatively powerless. They'd be on a scale akin to "as gods go, they're weak, but can still destroy an entire species with a mere thought"... but they're not. The Great Four, specifically, focus too much of their attention on the Milky Way for it to be just one part of their vast dominion, and concern themselves far too much with the actions of one particularly clever ape for those apes to be nothing more than fly-specks in the grand scheme of things.

 david choe wrote:
@Animus...

Seriously... if you do not understand 1,000,000,000 x 1 Milky Way... that is how much Chaos just got more galaxy because of that one liner.
your 1 heart vs. 2 is a joke.

It's to demonstrate a point. Once you start plugging your ears to anything you don't like, you won't end up with much.
"The Imperium is a million worlds!"
"No it's not! It's maybe a half a world, the rest is just hyperbolic propaganda. A million worlds just doesn't make sense in terms of science after all."

 david choe wrote:
That is the point about this debate...billions vs. one writer.

We take this to court you win. We take this to Science department ... you loose.

But it's not billions versus one writer. It's some writers and some fans vs some fans. No science department would say I lose, because we're not dealing with science here, we're dealing with fiction, with gods and demons, with magic parallel universes.

 david choe wrote:
The game is always based about this galaxy.. never the universe.. then that one or two lines.. was use as Universe... you became a fanboy of holding this as proof. If there were a court of law.. you might win. If there were a poll most gamers would call GW BS again. Stupid fluff. GW are ignorant gamers geek who don't know crap about astrophysics...This is beyond rule of cool, this is rule of stupid. Chaos is already cool as is.. GW do not need to improve their power by a billion galaxies.

How do you know they're ignorant? Do you know how large a galaxy is? It's vast beyond what our minds can conceive, yet it's fine to have the galaxy as a battleground? The game hasn't even explored a fraction of the galaxy, should we say it's only maybe a few hundred worlds? We've got extragalactic threats in the Tyranids. We've got extrauniversal threats in the forms of daemons and other warpspawn. We've been beyond the bounds of the galaxy before in the webway and in the warp.

 david choe wrote:
It is stupid and childish ... you can go with it. I've made enough statement about this. I won't try to convince you about how stupid and idiotic GW claims is and it destroyed other fluff and create many loop holes in the back stories. GW can hardly keep their story straight in one Galaxy and now they got the whole universe.... You want to carry this mantel, then go ahead. Shout it out loud when you enter GW stores with pride... Chaos gods is everywhere in the Universe and Nurgle created all the plagues in every galaxies in the universe.. oooooo how powerful is Nurgle now.

Stupid? Childish? Perhaps something you just don't like.

@Animus...

It's to demonstrate a point. Once you start plugging your ears to anything you don't like, you won't end up with much.
"The Imperium is a million worlds!"
"No it's not! It's maybe a half a world, the rest is just hyperbolic propaganda. A million worlds just doesn't make sense in terms of science after all."

LOL... that is you. a million worlds are tinny in a galaxy of 500 billions worlds. I do acepted that because GW made sense out of it. The scale is not impossible.

You are the one who must have flunk math... you think millions is a good example of billions?



"But it's not billions versus one writer. It's some writers and some fans vs some fans. No science department would say I lose, because we're not dealing with science here, we're dealing with fiction, with gods and demons, with magic parallel universes."

Are you being naive?



"How do you know they're ignorant? Do you know how large a galaxy is? It's vast beyond what our minds can conceive, yet it's fine to have the galaxy as a battleground? The game hasn't even explored a fraction of the galaxy, should we say it's only maybe a few hundred worlds? We've got extragalactic threats in the Tyranids. We've got extrauniversal threats in the forms of daemons and other warpspawn. We've been beyond the bounds of the galaxy before in the webway and in the warp."

Don't make me say somebody here might be ignorant too. I know how large a galaxy is. We have measured the milky way galaxy. Many light years... but I can look it up. I know sciences and it seems like everything you are talking about are things that you don't know or think that we don't have an answer and we do ... OMG.. I am talking to a creationist....

The game explore this Milky Way Galaxy and the dimension that is connected to this Galaxy. Not the Universe.


"Stupid? Childish? Perhaps something you just don't like".

So, just to confirm... We all understand that this is a fictional setting for a game of toy soldiers, right?


Please see Dakka's rule #1 and dial the antagonism meter down to 'Reasonable Discourse'

What GW says, goes. It is canon. You can love it, you can hate it. But it exists. If the only way it can make sense to you is by creating a false reality, then do so. If GW says Nurgle is responsible for every disease in the galaxy, guess what? Nurgle was responsible for every disease in the galaxy. Whatever GW says is truth in the 40k reality. Accept this, and we may get somewhere. This is not believing the BS GW tells us, this is obeying the rules and laws of their setting. Science cannot explain this: this is fiction, pure and simple. A game.

 david choe wrote:

LOL... that is you. a million worlds are tinny in a galaxy of 500 billions worlds. I do excepted that because GW made sense out of it. The scale is not impossible.

You are the one who must have flunk math... you think millions is a good example of billions?

It was another example to demonstrate that you can fluctuate the scale all you want, it doesn't matter because it remains true.

 david choe wrote:
Are you being naive?

No, are you? This is a non-question.

 david choe wrote:
Don't make me say somebody here might be ignorant too. I know how large a galaxy is. We have measured the milky way galaxy. Many light years... but I can look it up. I know sciences and it seems like everything you are talking about are things that you don't know or think that we don't have an answer and we do ... OMG.. I am talking to a creationist....

Oh, we can assign a number to the galaxy, we can measure it, but you cannot comprehend how large that is. The human brain just isn't built for it. You can probably mentally picture ten objects, a hundred objects, a thousand objects. Can you picture a million in your mind? A billion? You can perhaps imagine a mile, but can you imagine the actual scale of a light year? I doubt it.

 david choe wrote:
The game explore this Milky Way Galaxy and the dimension that is connected to this Galaxy. Not the Universe.

It explores bits of the milky way and bits of two alternate dimensions.

 david choe wrote:
You win buddy.

I thought you said I won last time too, but you keep coming.