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About a month ago, I posted who people thought was a better HQ choice, and I've actually reversed my thinking. The Fateweaver, while having some nice utility bonuses, cannot take the Grimoire of True Names and has some iffy Psychic Powers. The Lord of Change, for about 10 points less, can be a ML 3 Psyker, can give other units a buff with the Grimoire, has better stats overall, but does have a worse save. Giving him just the basic Staff for a Lesser Reward and he can smash most vehicles to pieces, even glancing Land Raiders. Plus, taking Divination gives him a lot of utility in addition to the Grimoire. Specifically, Forewarning can help out when you get a bum Grimoire roll. He can also cast rerolls of saves and what not on himself. I suggest Divination over Malefic as, other than summoning, it doesn't seem to have a ton of support uses.

My problem with Fateweaver is I already have to give Grimoire to another HQ or one of my Daemon Prince's, wasting a Reward instead of making a Prince or a Bloodthirster more killy/more survivable. He also seems to die like a stiff breeze, especially if he gets grounded. At that point, he can be killed by most units or just tarpitted for the rest of the game.

Can anyone point out a strategy I've missed? Other than the rerolling a d6 and his set warlord trait, he doesn't really seem to have enough to make me want to take him because of how fragile he is. The Lord of Change, however, is a little bit more survivable but also much better at killing should he need to be.

Fate is a level 4 psyker with two power lists with a lot if disciples between them, and you can choose between the two lists every turn, making him the most flexible psyker in the game, and almost the most powerful.

He also makes the book held by someone else less likely to screw you over with the reroll. The book isn't as amazing without him around.

Also with 5 T5 wounds, a 4++ that rerolls 1 and FMC stats, if he died like a breeze you dud something wrong. He never needs to land.


As for "besides the trait", in a daemon army that trait is godly.
Pretty poor if you got a daemons+CSM or LaD army, but pure daemons? you really want that trait to save you from a roll of 2-4 on the warpstorm. they can totally ruin your day.
(on mono-tzentch getting 6 is also quite nasty)
And getting the 10-12 results more often due to the fact you rerolled the bad ones is also nice, as they can and will tilt the game in your favor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Fate is a level 4 psyker with two power lists with a lot if disciples between them, and you can choose between the two lists every turn, making him the most flexible psyker in the game, and almost the most powerful.

The problem with his power generation is that you only get a single roll on the Pyromancy, Divination, Biomancy and Telepathy disciplines (you do get two rolls on Malefic though - one for each head as per the FAQ - but you'll only ever be able to use one at a time since you can't cast from both heads in the same phase). Only getting a single roll means you can't exactly fish for the awesome powers (namely Invisibility) because you have the same chance as a generic ML1 Psyker rolling on Telepathy.... The Self-Buffs from Biomancy and Divination are wasted because Fateweaver is WS1 with a single attack - even with Iron Arm or Precognition he's still gonna suck in combat. Both heads knowing all the Change powers is OK I guess, but they're not particularly strong in the first place outside of very specific situations. It's further hurt by only being able to cast either Pyromancy/Divination/Malefic Power X or Biomancy/Telepathy/Malefic Power Y each turn since you can't use the spells from the other head in the same Psychic Phase. It's somewhat offset by Biomancy and Telepathy both having decent Witchfire Primaris powers which you can always default to, but then you're paying a lot of points for a model to do some inefficient Psychic Shooting with. You could use him as a decent Summoning unit, but a ML3 Tzeentch Herald does a better job of that for a significantly cheaper price.

Fateweaver is there for basically two reasons - the D6 re-roll a turn and the guaranteed Lord of Unreality Warlord Trait. The D6 re-roll is of most use when using an army list that relies on a successful Grimoire activation, meaning your list has a Deathstar unit that is the central focus. Re-rolling the Warpstorm results is pretty good - but not essential. Given that you have a chance to roll it anyway (and a better chance if your list is a CAD, since you can re-roll Warlord Traits), I think the Warpstorm table gets too much of a bad reputation. Yes there are games where your big bad Demon Prince or Greater Demon goes pop first turn because you forced an Instability test on 3D6 and rolled trip sixes, but most of the time the effect is either of little consequence or decent benefit to you.

Given I don't generally tend to play with the Grimoire (and when I do it's on a fast moving unit like a FMC or Burning Chariot or something that can bail out with a big movement to go hide a turn if the Grimoire fails), I would almost always take a Lord of Change instead. Lords of Change are actually quite good in CC, with S8 attacks and Divination buffs (not to mention potential Greater Reward buffs). With a Lord of Change you also don't have to have him fly around hiding out of LoS all game and can instead get him stuck into a nice juicy assault.

If you're not set on mono-tzeentch, a flying nurgle daemon prince with the book will save you a lot of headache. Jink 2+!

A lord of Change got better close combat potential... but then you use him as a 'hammer' and I think that Fateweaver makes a better 'scalpel'.

- Fateweavers powers are random but most times you will get at least a Iron arm, precognition, schrouding or invisibility or cursed earth.
- Grimoire is to good not to use and that reroll D6 the best way to (almost) insure it works.
- If you're flying near sum necron wraiths a single perils wound can drop a FMC to the ground and gets assaulted next turn...but that reroll d6 can really help.
- Beam attacks dont get -1 strenght (6th edition) after each hit anymore..so a bolt of change with S4+d6(fateweaver reroll) and ap2 can really hurt a bunch of vehicles in one go...
- Fateweaver can always trade that telepathy power for psychic schriek and watch that Wraithknight when you trow a 4,6,1..."oh, you know what, lets reroll that 1"

I dont really like the FMC close combat output except when you go big, like 3 nurgle Daemon princes flying down turn 2 and wreck face turn 3..
I rather use 'possession' and drop in a Keeper of secrets with a D6+3 run + invisibility ,that can assault right away next turn or use a tzeentch Daemon prince with all the buffs at the right time..

I prefer the scalpel...

Goon, you are seriusly underestimating the change decipline.

With 7th bolt became probably the best anti-TeQ weapon in the game, it can also be an anti-tank tool in a pinch, and in case of moments of glory-take multiple tanks at once.
And with plenty of charges, the FF is nothing to scuff off as well.

And if you didn't need the reroll for anything else yet, he makes change powers scary-as he can tilt their random nature in his favor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Goon, you are seriusly underestimating the change decipline.

With 7th bolt became probably the best anti-TeQ weapon in the game, it can also be an anti-tank tool in a pinch, and in case of moments of glory-take multiple tanks at once.
And with plenty of charges, the FF is nothing to scuff off as well.

And if you didn't need the reroll for anything else yet, he makes change powers scary-as he can tilt their random nature in his favor.

Holy gak. Beams now no longer do minus -1 S per model? That is amazing also, its a tad expensive, but throwing in the extra 2d6 FF shots from the banner when you have to kill something is rather nioce.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vector Strike wrote:
If you're not set on mono-tzeentch, a flying nurgle daemon prince with the book will save you a lot of headache. Jink 2+!

My only problem with Nurgle Daemon Princes is that they can't Sweeping Advance. Also, can you still ink on the ground, or has that been FAQ'ed out?

You can still Jink on the ground.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Goon, you are seriusly underestimating the change decipline.

With 7th bolt became probably the best anti-TeQ weapon in the game, it can also be an anti-tank tool in a pinch, and in case of moments of glory-take multiple tanks at once.
And with plenty of charges, the FF is nothing to scuff off as well.

And if you didn't need the reroll for anything else yet, he makes change powers scary-as he can tilt their random nature in his favor.

Yeah, but why pay 300pts for Fateweaver when a Herald or even Pink Horrors can do the same thing? If you're dead set on using Change, a fully kitted out ML3 Herald with Disc and Exalted Locus will do the job better than Fateweaver and cost less than half the points. You get 4 Heralds per HQ slot, so it's not like you don't have the room for it. Hell, take 2. But the thing is, it's not like Demons are exactly short on anti-TEQ or anti-vehicle anyway. I find Demonettes/Seekers eat TEQ for breakfast through weight of attacks + rending. Fleshhounds and/or Screamers mow through vehicles. The only thing that gives pause are AV13 walkers, which admittedly are a problem especially with Knights.

I get that IF you happen to roll good powers on Fateweaver he can be really flexible, but the odds aren't in your favour. And if you don't get good powers then you're forced to use a 300pt model to fly around popping off witchfires. I prefer the reliability of a Lord of Change, since at least you are guaranteed a good Close Combat beatstick. I'm not saying Fateweaver is terrible, because he can be used to good effect, what I'm saying is that he's far from the only option available.

The problem is none of the GDs are good beatsticks because they die too easily. With the change to FMCs having stay on the ground for a turn before they can charge into combat that is more then enough time to get them gunned down unless you got luck with your rewards and psy powers. Ultimately nothing about LoCs are reliable as you are still depending on rolling something to make them do work.

Fatweaver doesn't suffer from such a problem. At the very minimum with primaris powers you get Shriek, Summoning, and all the tzeentch powers which give you very good utility for damage and table control. Even if you can't do psy powers well you still have the staff reroll and warpstorm reroll to do something.

Oh, I would never put a FMC flying if he was going for assault. But being able to move 12" and then run 6" is still a decent movement first turn. Surely you can find some LOS blocking terrain. The current Lord of Change model is actually pretty small and relatively easy to hide. The new Bloodthirster looks considerably larger which will definitely make things more difficult.

And between 3 rolls on Divination and two rolls on the Greater Rewards you are more than likely to pick up Forewarning, Precognition, FNP4+, Re-roll Invuln Saves or 3+ Armour. Even at least 1 of those goes a long way to helping a LoC survive.

My point was that if I'm going to be putting 300pts into a model, then it should be one that is going to do something nasty. For 300pts I feel Fatey's output is pretty lacklustre considering you can do similar things with Tzeentch Heralds for far less points. Yes the D6 re-roll can be critical if you have a list that is making key use of the Grimoire (which is by far the best use of the D6 re-roll), but not every list does.

For every game where I roll crap powers for fatey and nothing but 7's on the warpstorm table I have another where I terrify a riptide off the table and then turn a 4 on the warpstorm table into an 8 and watch broadsides get rended to death and then flee off the table as well.

Sometimes fatey is exactly what you need, and if you don't take him, you can bet that you'll kick yourself when you lose the game due to one single dice roll.

Fateweaver may not be the named character that Daemons deserve, but he's the one they need right now

Drasius said it, fate's job is to wear out the amazing RNG swings that the daemon codex creates, and turn the tide to your favor.


He's not a beatstick, or a psyker cannon-he's a manager.
And he's still a better psyker than a LoC, due to lvl4 and having loverall 8 spells beats out the 4 spells and level 3 the LoC can max out.

And while you complain about the costs of fate, you seem to neglect that your pimped LoC costs a bit MORE than him. and while he gets more durable and a better beatstick, he's an inferior psyker, and has a far smaller global impact.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Drasius said it, fate's job is to wear out the amazing RNG swings that the daemon codex creates, and turn the tide to your favor.


He's not a beatstick, or a psyker cannon-he's a manager.
And he's still a better psyker than a LoC, due to lvl4 and having loverall 8 spells beats out the 4 spells and level 3 the LoC can max out.

And while you complain about the costs of fate, you seem to neglect that your pimped LoC costs a bit MORE than him. and while he gets more durable and a better beatstick, he's an inferior psyker, and has a far smaller global impact.

LoC with 2 Greater Rewards/1 Lesser and 1 Exalted plus ML 3 is 295, like 10 points cheaper than Fateweaver.

I assume he was counting exalted plus greater, putting you 5 points over. Point being, you're not really saving much (if anything) and what you gain probably isn't worth what you lose.

 luke1705 wrote:
Fateweaver may not be the named character that Daemons deserve, but he's the one they need right now

Haha Yes! a batman reference! Exalt!

Also, under 1200 points> dont use fatey
over 1200 points > Fatey all day long!

He isnt super at CC... but then again why put him in CC?
His powers are random a tad...but then again you are playing daemons and so does that surprise you?
He is 300 points.... of awesomesause!

Learn to go with the flow and he will never let you down!

Finally im not 100% sure but I believe you can use his re-roll even before the game starts (not sure, never actually tried it, but read it somewhere)

 luke1705 wrote:
I assume he was counting exalted plus greater, putting you 5 points over. Point being, you're not really saving much (if anything) and what you gain probably isn't worth what you lose.

But why? The Tzeentch Lesser Weapon has better Strength than the Greater. I get wanting the FNP, but that's rough odds. I'd rather have a Beatstick that can glance Land Raiders and nukes everything in 6".

A few months ago a case could've been made for LoC over Fateweaver in an Allied Detachment. Then a FAQ was released that enabled Fateweaver to have acces to 2 Malefic Spells (who can be swapped for the primaris power). That fixed the last major downside to Fateweaver. In a Combined Arms Detachment Fateweavers Warlordtrait is too significant to pass on.
A LoC can take the Grimnoire where Fateweaver cannot. That might be a small issue when you want an FMC in a Daemons Allied Detachment to go with a CSM list, but even then I'd take Fateweavers flexibility over the LOC's combat prowess. It's not like you need more CC power with Screamers, Fleshhounds, Plaguedrones, Soulgrinders, Spawn, Maulerfiends and Be'lakor allready at your disposal.

Cilithan

See it this way...

Lord of change:
- Needs the grimoire or invisibility or else he will get shot to pieces.
- You cannot use grimoire on yourself so another needs to do this and this one should also be protected.
- Without fateweavers reroll you will fail that grimoire at the most crucial moment.
- Needs to move two turns before he can get into close combat, and at least one turn gliding/on the floor.
- Needs to win that close combat in order for him to get to another enemy unit before the game is over.
- a few bad warp storm results and you will pick fateweaver again I bet.

Fateweaver:

- It depends on the powers but you will at least get psychic schriek, all change powers and malefic/summoning.
- Fateweaver can do a lot of shooting damage and run/fly off the board.
- I once killed a wraithknight with one psychic schriek (+ reroll), then forced 3 wave serpents to jinx with my bolt of change and cast cursed earth to give my freshly summoned deamonettes sum extra protection. All in one turn!!
- Gives an extra warp charge
- Got two extra summoning powers for "free". Fateweaver with only one wound? BAMB! a fresh Greater deamon with possession! Sacrifice? You can make a slaanesh herald with psychic schriek and S6 rending beam (slaanesh primaris) and start shooting.
- Still got a 'smash attack with Strenght 10 against vehicles.
One downside/problem: you NEED the warp charge... If you start losing dice then it gets harder...

 Cilithan wrote:
A few months ago a case could've been made for LoC over Fateweaver in an Allied Detachment. Then a FAQ was released that enabled Fateweaver to have acces to 2 Malefic Spells (who can be swapped for the primaris power). That fixed the last major downside to Fateweaver. In a Combined Arms Detachment Fateweavers Warlordtrait is too significant to pass on.
A LoC can take the Grimnoire where Fateweaver cannot. That might be a small issue when you want an FMC in a Daemons Allied Detachment to go with a CSM list, but even then I'd take Fateweavers flexibility over the LOC's combat prowess. It's not like you need more CC power with Screamers, Fleshhounds, Plaguedrones, Soulgrinders, Spawn, Maulerfiends and Be'lakor allready at your disposal.

Cilithan

I suppose. I actually have a Fate Weaver coming soon, so I can proxy him as a Lord of Change to try out both options. I really only have about 4 Daemons games under my belt, but I think this just needs more playtesting. I like Fate's utility and battlefield control, but I don't know how much that ways out the invulnerable buffs.

They both have ups and downs. I used to swear by the LoC with 2 greater and 1 lesser reward, pimping out divination. If you were lucky, he became very durable, and a powerhouse in CC.

I started using Fatey just to mess with him, and found that his massive amount of powers was really awesome to have. He was buffing and blasting everything, he also became a #1 priority target for my opponent after I dropped an S10 small blast on him with ignore cover.

LoC lost some oomph with no more landing and assaulting, but is still really useful and arguably the best of the greater daemons, with GUO right behind.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
They both have ups and downs. I used to swear by the LoC with 2 greater and 1 lesser reward, pimping out divination. If you were lucky, he became very durable, and a powerhouse in CC.

I started using Fatey just to mess with him, and found that his massive amount of powers was really awesome to have. He was buffing and blasting everything, he also became a #1 priority target for my opponent after I dropped an S10 small blast on him with ignore cover.

LoC lost some oomph with no more landing and assaulting, but is still really useful and arguably the best of the greater daemons, with GUO right behind.

Really? I think Bloodthirster holds his own with 2 Greater Rewards. FNP is kind of a necessity on him, but the extra attack from having a Greater Etherblade is nice, plus the Etherblade is a nice change off for when you need +1 S over possible Instant Death. Plus, he has enough wounds and a decent T that I usually start him Gliding right behind some Flesh Hounds.

I like the GUO, but he's just so damn slow. I've yet to use, which is sad because I love Nurgle Daemons, but the fact that he can't Sweeping Advance really bugs me.

LoC used in conjunction with Be'lakor for assault purposes is pretty good. LoC gives grimoire and cast prescience on Belakor and belakor casts invisibility on LoC makes 2 very hard to kill MCs and will wreck havoc on almost anything.

Fateweaver is never not useful. Once you get a few games with him you will see why. There is a learning curve however with how aggressive you can be with him vs. straight support.


The REAL question is why would you a take a LoC for the purposes of a FMC melee beatstick when Be'lakor and Nurgle daemon princes exist? Even a Slaanesh lash prince has a better role (not melee) for the points on the field.

 D6Damager wrote:
Fateweaver is never not useful. Once you get a few games with him you will see why. There is a learning curve however with how aggressive you can be with him vs. straight support.


The REAL question is why would you a take a LoC for the purposes of a FMC melee beatstick when Be'lakor and Nurgle daemon princes exist? Even a Slaanesh lash prince has a better role (not melee) for the points on the field.

Because he can do a good beatstic as well as Divination and Grimoire support. Plus, Nurgle DPs can't sweeping advance and I don't have a Be'lakor

How does fate weaver has demonic. Powers? Codex says he only knows all of tzeentch and 1 of each.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
How does fate weaver has demonic. Powers? Codex says he only knows all of tzeentch and 1 of each.

FAQ

So Fateweaver can generate 4 powers from malefic powers and know the primaris in addition to everything listed in the original?

So pink horrors can summon too?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So Fateweaver can generate 4 powers from malefic powers and know the primaris in addition to everything listed in the original?

So pink horrors can summon too?

Fatewaver has a very specific way he generates his powers so he can't just roll on malefic 4 times

And yes pink horrors can summon