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Been trying to find a clarification regarding jetbikes being able to charge "over" models.

For example, I have a heavy weapons unit, and I screen them with some basic troopers.

Eldar/Deldar jetbikes zoom up to just over 1" away from the screening troopers, and shoot at the heavy weapons unit.

In the assault phase, can the Jetbikes charge over the top of the screening guys to get at the heavy weapons unit, so long as there is just enough space for their bases, and charge range is sufficient?

In the Assaults section, it states 'may not charge through models', but Jetbikes can move over enemy and friendly models in the movement phase or if doing an Eldar Jetbike move. Charging is not mentioned.

Currently we play that you CAN ignore models when charging as a jetbike, but I think other groups might say no.

Thanks very much!
Ibushi

It's not actually just the movement phase... Jetbikes move freely over all other models (Rulebook - 'Jetbikes, Models & Terrain', first sentence)

So yes, they can charge over the intervening unit.

 insaniak wrote:
It's not actually just the movement phase... Jetbikes move freely over all other models (Rulebook - 'Jetbikes, Models & Terrain', first sentence)

So yes, they can charge over the intervening unit.

I understand where you're coming from here and it would make jetbikes that much more crazy fun to play.
I don't think I can agree with it though.

The section to which you refer does clearly state that Jetbikes can move freely over any/all terrain but therein lies the problem.
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)
This is three dimensional space also. Up and Over would add how many inches to the Charge distance?
This would seem akin to a Space-Marine using his Distance dice to charge around an intervening unit(assuming a high-enough roll was made).
What's the stance on that?

Just playing Devil's advocate here but it seemed like a point I should bring up for clarity.

bastion01 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It's not actually just the movement phase... Jetbikes move freely over all other models (Rulebook - 'Jetbikes, Models & Terrain', first sentence)

So yes, they can charge over the intervening unit.

I understand where you're coming from here and it would make jetbikes that much more crazy fun to play.
I don't think I can agree with it though.

The section to which you refer does clearly state that Jetbikes can move freely over any/all terrain but therein lies the problem.
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)

If it's not movement, what is it? Considering it's referred to as moving and movement multiple times in the rules.

This is three dimensional space also. Up and Over would add how many inches to the Charge distance?

Since when did 3 dimensions matter for Jump/Jetbike movement?

This would seem akin to a Space-Marine using his Distance dice to charge around an intervening unit(assuming a high-enough roll was made).
What's the stance on that?

No reason you can't do it, you just have to measure around the unit you're moving in the shortest possible path.

bastion01 wrote:
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)

Then why is Step 4 of the Charge Sub-phase called 'Charge Move'? Its because it is Moving and even follows the same rules as the Movement phase. So why is it 'Moving' if done in the Movement phase but not in the Assault phase?

bastion01 wrote:
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)

Yes, it is. There are a couple of specific exceptions, but otherwise it follows all of the same rules as moving in the Movement phase. Or any other phase.

This is three dimensional space also. Up and Over would add how many inches to the Charge distance?

If you're playing that the vertical parabola is considered (most players don't) then you would just measure the actual path taken, as with any other movement.

This would seem akin to a Space-Marine using his Distance dice to charge around an intervening unit(assuming a high-enough roll was made).
What's the stance on that?

Why would that be a problem? Charging isn't straight-line movement, just the shortest possible path for the initial model moved.

What matters is if your opponent can find room to place his models into B2B with the squad hes charging.

bastion01 wrote:
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)

I'd like to add to this. If charging was not movement, why would you take dangerous terrain tests still?

 Ond Angel wrote:

bastion01 wrote:
Charging is not Moving. (yes, yes...it's model 'movement' but still not the same)

I'd like to add to this. If charging was not movement, why would you take dangerous terrain tests still?

Lots of good responses - thank you.

but what I meant was that Charging does not take place in the Movement phase.
It's a mechanic applied to facilitate Assaulting and in that phase. It is by definition not Movement.
..which is why it shouldn't be considered as such.

With regards to the DT checks: The rule as I understand it applies to models moved into/through terrain regardless of how or when they got there(using Movement, Assaulting or any other twist of fate)

I don't disagree with the notions put forth but I do feel it important to make the distinction. Bubble-wrapping and unit positioning is important in gameplay for denying Assaults against critical units and granting this allowance to jetbikes - applying Movement rules to the Assault phase doesn't seem right.

Are these angry space-elves bearing down on an enemy to smash face or are they twisting and jockeying for juuust the right spot to land safely and tap they on the shoulder?

bastion01 wrote:
I don't disagree with the notions put forth but I do feel it important to make the distinction. Bubble-wrapping and unit positioning is important in gameplay for denying Assaults against critical units and granting this allowance to jetbikes - applying Movement rules to the Assault phase doesn't seem right.

How is the Jetbike ability to move over things a Movement rule?


Do you see anything about the Movement phase in there?

rigeld2 wrote:

bastion01 wrote:
I don't disagree with the notions put forth but I do feel it important to make the distinction. Bubble-wrapping and unit positioning is important in gameplay for denying Assaults against critical units and granting this allowance to jetbikes - applying Movement rules to the Assault phase doesn't seem right.

How is the Jetbike ability to move over things a Movement rule?

Spoiler:

JETBIKES, MODELS AND TERRAIN
Jetbikes can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if a moving Jetbike begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jetbikes cannot end their move over other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do so, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.

Do you see anything about the Movement phase in there?

I think he's imagining a requirement that Movement can only happen in the Movement phase. No such requirement in the rules. Movement happens all the time and can happen in pretty much any phase.

Same question but with regard to Necron Wraiths and their wraith flight ability (ability to phase through terrain and intervening models during movement)

Meaning it's the same answer. There's literally no difference.

Do you have to add inches to the movement (or charge distance) is moving or assaulting on a multi-level ruin or building?

In my first game with wraiths I assaulted a long fangs unit on the second floor of a ruin. We were unsure whether or not to add three inches to the necessary charge distance or not so we compromised on drawing a straight line from the wraiths to the unit (the hypotenuse for all you technical guys) and used that distance.

It sounds like the verdict is that a Charge is essentially another move using whatever special movement rules a model has, that happens in the Assault Phase.

Bastion is getting at the idea that a Charge is unique to the Assault phase, and can only be conducted as 2D6 movement, without special movement rules applying.

That would mean Wraiths and Jetbikes would not be able to move "over" or "through" models, but would need to take the shortest route around, just the same as a Space Marine on foot.

I definitely can see the sense in either position, and would even prefer/lean towards the latter, as I believe Jetbikes charging through DT would still strike at Initiative 1, correct?

Good discussion, thanks for the feedback.
Ibushi

 ibushi wrote:
It sounds like the verdict is that a Charge is essentially another move using whatever special movement rules a model has, that happens in the Assault Phase.

Because it's explicitly, in the actual rules, called a move. Multiple times.

Bastion is getting at the idea that a Charge is unique to the Assault phase, and can only be conducted as 2D6 movement, without special movement rules applying.

And has nothing to support that assumption.

I definitely can see the sense in either position, and would even prefer/lean towards the latter, as I believe Jetbikes charging through DT would still strike at Initiative 1, correct?

Technically no. They didn't move through, they just ended in.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ibushi wrote:
It sounds like the verdict is that a Charge is essentially another move using whatever special movement rules a model has, that happens in the Assault Phase.

Because it's explicitly, in the actual rules, called a move. Multiple times.

Bastion is getting at the idea that a Charge is unique to the Assault phase, and can only be conducted as 2D6 movement, without special movement rules applying.

And has nothing to support that assumption.

ibushi is seeing my point as intended.
Wether they use the word 'Move' or not is irrelevant. It does not take place in the Movement phase therefore it is not Movement and should not be considered as such.
This is the sum of my argument.
but to make it even more interesting the BRB has the following...
"When Eldar Jetbikes move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they treat difficult terrain in the same way as they do in the Movement phase."
(in the special pull-out section "Eldar and Dark Eldar Jetbikes")
There seems a need to specify non-Charging as a special circumstance Movement but Charging is not mentioned. Why? Because Charging is not Movement.

Obviously if both players are agreed to one way or the other they can/should play it accordingly but to me it seems clear: Charging is not "movement"
Thanks again to all viewpoints.

bastion01 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ibushi wrote:
It sounds like the verdict is that a Charge is essentially another move using whatever special movement rules a model has, that happens in the Assault Phase.

Because it's explicitly, in the actual rules, called a move. Multiple times.

Bastion is getting at the idea that a Charge is unique to the Assault phase, and can only be conducted as 2D6 movement, without special movement rules applying.

And has nothing to support that assumption.

ibushi is seeing my point as intended.
Wether they use the word 'Move' or not is irrelevant. It does not take place in the Movement phase therefore it is not Movement and should not be considered as such.

It's not irrelevant. There is literally nothing to support the fact that the Movement phase has special movement rules and other phases don't, especially when they say "move".
Nothing in the jetbike rules restricts their special movement rules to the movement phase.

but to make it even more interesting the BRB has the following...
"When Eldar Jetbikes move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they treat difficult terrain in the same way as they do in the Movement phase."
(in the special pull-out section "Eldar and Dark Eldar Jetbikes")
There seems a need to specify non-Charging as a special circumstance Movement but Charging is not mentioned. Why? Because Charging is not Movement.

I'm sure you can point out the Movement phase restriction here:

They mention that for not-charging as they do for any time there's a non-Movement phase potential to move into/through difficult terrain. That doesn't make a charge not movement.

Obviously if both players are agreed to one way or the other they can/should play it accordingly but to me it seems clear: Charging is not "movement"

Despite it literally being called movement in the rules.

Thanks for all the feedback.

In conclusion: Jetbikes ignore terrain and models for charging, and can charge "over" models if there is enough space on the other side (and they roll high enough).

So if jetbikes charge "over" DT, i'm guessing there is still no -2 penalty, and no initiative penalty.

However, if they "land" in DT they take a DT test, and ALSO strike at initiative 1, or JUST take DT test?

Thanks
Ibushi

Just take the Dangerous Terrain test. They didn't move through terrain, just ended their move there.

OK so people whining about Shining Spears "forgetting their grenades" etc. is whining and just that.

Cheers!

Wait, is that right? In previous FAQs they said:
"Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrainwhen moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes. "

I haven't seen any wording in 7th that has changed in regards to this from 6th. Rigeld can you provide any wording changes between the editions that would suggest it has changed?

Bojazz wrote:
Wait, is that right? In previous FAQs they said:
"Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrainwhen moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes. "

I haven't seen any wording in 7th that has changed in regards to this from 6th. Rigeld can you provide any wording changes between the editions that would suggest it has changed?

You're misunderstanding.

Jetbikes never move *through* difficult terrain and therefore never trigger the initiative penalty.
Same with Skyborne jump infantry.

Wraiths (in the 5th edition codex, for example) ignored difficult terrain and moved through it - meaning they fought at initiative one.

I understand that, but that exact same argument was used in 6th edition. When the FAQ I quoted came out, it was pretty much universally agreed that jetbikes DID suffer the initiative penalty. Here are some threads from various websites to exemplify this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/493795.page?

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=100834&view=previous

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?374116-Assaulting-through-cover

In both editions jetbikes (and jump/jet infantry) "hopped" over terrain, and it was still accepted that they suffer the iniatiative penalty. The wording for the initiative penalty has not changed between editions either, so why has the ruling?

It wasn't accepted actually. I'm sorry you think that.
Jump Infantry didn't need Grenades in 6th either.

I'd absolutely love for you to be correct, but I can't just take your word for it. I can't find any information to corroborate what you're saying. Every thread on the matter that I've come across has been in disagreement with your ruling, even when the arguments for "hopping over" terrain were included. Can you provide any links to old threads that show that all of the links I've provided are not representative of the generally accepted ruling at the time?

On one hand, I've got multiple threads using an FAQ precedent to say that Jetbikes and jump/jet DO suffer the initiative penalty, and on the other hand I've got you saying "No".

Bojazz wrote:
On one hand, I've got multiple threads using an FAQ precedent to say that Jetbikes and jump/jet DO suffer the initiative penalty, and on the other hand I've got you saying "No".

So the actual rules don't mean anything?

I mean... if that's the case...

The actual rules which are identical to the previous actual rules, which were FAQ'd to disagree with what you're saying? Yes, they mean exactly that.

Bojazz wrote:
The actual rules which are identical to the previous actual rules, which were FAQ'd to disagree with what you're saying? Yes, they mean exactly that.

They weren't FAQed to disagree with what I'm saying. At all.

"Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrainwhen moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes. "

Jetbikes do not ignore difficult terrain. They move over it. If you can't understand the difference then I'm not sure how else to explain it to you.

That is your opinion, and seemingly, yours alone. I've provided several links to threads that all agree that the FAQ says jetbikes suffer the initiative penalty. You've provided nothing to suggest otherwise except your own different interpretation.